45 replies to this topic

[and then]

http://world.time.co...now-truly-over/

Maybe they've been learning from Assad?  Or maybe the Muslim Brothers just didn't want to share power.

[Kafkaesque]

Egypt is in dire straits. With no constitution and arbitrary arrests being made - the populace is in trouble.

Coup's never end up well, unless you transition to a democratic process.

They say they're going to create a new constitution, and I certainly hope that they do.

But I'll believe it when I see it. Those who seize power rarely give it up seldom.

[MichaelW]

I was under the impression that the Generals held power in Egypt regardless of whose strings they were pulling like the system in Algeria.

[and then]

MichaelW, on 14 June 2012 - 10:35 PM, said:

I was under the impression that the Generals held power in Egypt regardless of whose strings they were pulling like the system in Algeria.

And I believe you are correct.  But the people there seem to have their heart set on a new way of doing business.  I guess ultimately the generals are just too firmly entrenched and are unwilling to make changes that might interrupt the flow of billions in weapons and cash from the US.  The Muslim brothers are hardly a wonderful alternative so the whole thing becomes a bit of a Hobson's choice.

[MichaelW]

and then, on 15 June 2012 - 05:21 AM, said:

And I believe you are correct.  But the people there seem to have their heart set on a new way of doing business.  I guess ultimately the generals are just too firmly entrenched and are unwilling to make changes that might interrupt the flow of billions in weapons and cash from the US.  The Muslim brothers are hardly a wonderful alternative so the whole thing becomes a bit of a Hobson's choice.

Then the generals should give the people what they want. If they choose the Muslim Brotherhood, then it's their choice. They exercised their right to a democratic vote and that's all that matters.

[Yamato]

MichaelW, on 15 June 2012 - 09:43 AM, said:

Then the generals should give the people what they want. If they choose the Muslim Brotherhood, then it's their choice. They exercised their right to a democratic vote and that's all that matters.

Wow that's all that matters?  Really?   With an analog as pure and idealist as that, why can't we support democracy when Gaza exercised its right to vote for Hamas?  Why can't we keep excellent statements like yours above as a principle by applying them consistently across the board for EVERYBODY?  Why are you going to nastily attack me personally again for pointing out there's always a 2nd damned standard made for Israel?

[and then]

MichaelW, on 15 June 2012 - 09:43 AM, said:

Then the generals should give the people what they want. If they choose the Muslim Brotherhood, then it's their choice. They exercised their right to a democratic vote and that's all that matters.

I agree, the people should have their say.   But it's entirely possible that Egypt will then become an Islamist State and stop receiving any aid from the US.  Those generals have grown fat and contented on those paychecks and new military toys.

[and then]

Yamato, on 15 June 2012 - 09:49 AM, said:

Wow that's all that matters?  Really?   With an analog as pure and idealist as that, why can't we support democracy when Gaza exercised its right to vote for Hamas?  Why can't we keep excellent statements like yours above as a principle by applying them consistently across the board for EVERYBODY?  Why are you going to nastily attack me personally again for pointing out there's always a 2nd damned standard made for Israel?

The Gazans got what they asked for.  And Israel reacted the way it did because.....the Gazans got what they asked for:  A GOVERNMENT SWORN TO THE DESTRUCTION OF ISRAEL.  Since Hamas is at WAR with Israel and actively firing munitions at her citizens, Israel closed the border and blockaded the waterways to prevent weapons from reaching a combatant in that war.  Until Gaza became a "state" at war against Israel there was no need for such actions.

[Yamato]

and then, on 15 June 2012 - 09:50 AM, said:

I agree, the people should have their say.   But it's entirely possible that Egypt will then become an Islamist State and stop receiving any aid from the US.  Those generals have grown fat and contented on those paychecks and new military toys.

Egypt should stop receiving any aid from the US don't you think?   I'd much rather have an expense-free Islamist state than a sweetheart Mubarak any day.   How easy is it to support bilking taxpayers to pay for relationships between two foreign countries?

[Yamato]

and then, on 15 June 2012 - 09:54 AM, said:

The Gazans got what they asked for.  And Israel reacted the way it did because.....the Gazans got what they asked for:  A GOVERNMENT SWORN TO THE DESTRUCTION OF ISRAEL.  Since Hamas is at WAR with Israel and actively firing munitions at her citizens, Israel closed the border and blockaded the waterways to prevent weapons from reaching a combatant in that war.  Until Gaza became a "state" at war against Israel there was no need for such actions.

Israel closed the West Bank border in more ways than one too so it isn't just a reaction to an event, it's a state of mind present in all of their policy.  The entirety of the territories are surrounded by military forts and military forces and they're eating West Bank alive like a zombie attack in Florida.

You folks who think bureaucratic code makes the world go around ahead of humanity have dropped the baton.

[MichaelW]

Yamato, on 15 June 2012 - 09:49 AM, said:

Wow that's all that matters?  Really?   With an analog as pure and idealist as that, why can't we support democracy when Gaza exercised its right to vote for Hamas?

Who said I didn't support democracy? I find it surprising that the moderates in the whole charade are the ones that the most undemocratic.

Quote

Why can't we keep excellent statements like yours above as a principle by applying them consistently across the board for EVERYBODY?  Why are you going to nastily attack me personally again for pointing out there's always a 2nd damned standard made for Israel?

Did the Palestinians of the West Bank vote to keep their leader in? No, I didn't think so either.

[MichaelW]

and then, on 15 June 2012 - 09:50 AM, said:

I agree, the people should have their say.   But it's entirely possible that Egypt will then become an Islamist State and stop receiving any aid from the US.  Those generals have grown fat and contented on those paychecks and new military toys.

The population of Egypt was always a conservative one, adhereing to more traditional aspects of Islam than more progressive nations elsehwere. But why should you be so concerned? With the generals still exercising their power, it would take a miracle for the Egyptian people to overcome them.

[and then]

MichaelW, on 16 June 2012 - 12:49 AM, said:

The population of Egypt was always a conservative one, adhereing to more traditional aspects of Islam than more progressive nations elsehwere. But why should you be so concerned? With the generals still exercising their power, it would take a miracle for the Egyptian people to overcome them.

I'm not overly concerned with the outcome there.  The young people who were responsible for Mubarak's ouster were early on kicked to the curb - as usually happens in these situations- and the Islamists made their move and would have succeeded had the military not decided to retain power.  As I said, there really was no choice at all that would have improved the situation for the US OR Israel.  I only hope now that the military does not decide to mimic Assad in a more obvious way to shut down dissent.  It's unfortunate that the young people did not have more organization and a real leadership to promote it's ideas beyond JUST getting rid of the status quo.

Edited by and then, 16 June 2012 - 08:15 AM.

[and then]

Yamato, on 15 June 2012 - 10:01 AM, said:

Israel closed the West Bank border in more ways than one too so it isn't just a reaction to an event, it's a state of mind present in all of their policy.  The entirety of the territories are surrounded by military forts and military forces and they're eating West Bank alive like a zombie attack in Florida.

You folks who think bureaucratic code makes the world go around ahead of humanity have dropped the baton.

Yam do you remember or care about the Fogel family?  Those fortifications are to keep people alive who choose to live in the West Bank and have also committed the unforgivable sin of being Jewish. The youngest of the Fogel children whose throat was slashed was 18 months.  These are the people whose right's you so strenuously protect.  I fully expect Israel will consume the next round of land given to her when the Arabs pitch a fit of hatred and try to eliminate Israel from being a State.  So be it.  They should make peace already instead of hanging on to their hate.  If the world treated them like they do Israel I suspect they would have agreed to a peace deal before now.  It's the support of all the others in the world who use this situation as a way to perpetuate a "shadow" hatred against Jews and Zionism that make what the "Palestinians" do possible.  And I think when the inevitable denouement takes place ALL the actors responsible should be called out for a little blame.

[Yamato]

MichaelW, on 16 June 2012 - 12:45 AM, said:

Who said I didn't support democracy? I find it surprising that the moderates in the whole charade are the ones that the most undemocratic.



Did the Palestinians of the West Bank vote to keep their leader in? No, I didn't think so either.

One stops supporting democracy when one doesn't support examples and results of it.   This goes for Israel as well.   And like you, I don't support democracy as well as you so eloquently described doing so above either, but I do have something else to love.  I support liberty because my vote means nothing if my government doesn't leave me alone, free to be me.  Voting for the much-vaunted leadership class is overplayed and overrated.  I don't waste much time engaging in all the piddly arguments over Obama contrasted with Romney because they're a waste of time.

When you live in a state-enforced majority, the "democracy" that's left is skin over bones.   Other than some incursions from Africa getting the upper classes in Israel so hot and bothered today and tomorrow, they only need contend with themselves- their own super majority brought to Israel by tyranny.   How happy would you be living a life excluded from Israel's country club of humanity?   Democracy isn't worth fighting for when its bigoted nonsense.

I could create a place where everyone was just like me too, and I'm sure the "democracy" that ensues would be just fabulous.  What I can't do is make that selfish leap of faith that I'm the only messianic one who deserves it.