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Is Allah the same as God in the Bible?


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#76    odas

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 10:53 AM

View PostPhilangeli, on 25 June 2012 - 08:57 AM, said:

I was afraid this topic would wander off down other roads of counter-criticism - yes, some perfectly valid questions, but why not start a separate topic?

I've asked the question several times, but I don't think it has been answered:

If Allah is the same God as in the Bible, why did he exhort his messenger to attack others who already believed in Him? I posted the link earlier where there are dozens of examples in the Quran.

It was not meant to counter critisize christianity but to point out that any religion can claim to be the true one while, in my own opinion, they are all true for their followers. It is plain stupid to point out how someones religion or god is not the tru one. I will close my participation in this thread with the words of a very important man : I will keep my religion and you keep your religion.



#77    Philangeli

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 11:55 AM

View Postodas, on 25 June 2012 - 10:53 AM, said:

It was not meant to counter critisize christianity but to point out that any religion can claim to be the true one while, in my own opinion, they are all true for their followers. It is plain stupid to point out how someones religion or god is not the tru one. I will close my participation in this thread with the words of a very important man : I will keep my religion and you keep your religion.
And still, the question remains unanswered. Why would an infinitely loving and merciful God urge his messenger to attack, maim and slaughter the 'unbelievers', even when they believed in Him?

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#78    Knight Of Shadows

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 12:13 PM

View PostPhilangeli, on 25 June 2012 - 11:55 AM, said:

And still, the question remains unanswered. Why would an infinitely loving and merciful God urge his messenger to attack, maim and slaughter the 'unbelievers', even when they believed in Him?
my friend the bible goes both way one suggest that god is jesus him self
and the other suggest that jesus is just the son of god

in eaither ways this god is not the same god of islam in other words
allah does not have sons : Quran says
and god does not take forms of humans and cannot be killed or hurt etc etc
there's alot of god's attributes that does not share in common with allah

say and this is mere little example :

- Bible says : Exodus 20:11

For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

- Quran says : Sura 50.38

We created the heavens and the earth and all between them in Six Days, nor did any sense of weariness touch Us
-------------------
so in my personal opinion the god that the bible describes .. is not the same as allah
however the god that jesus spoke of even in the bible.. that's different story  and a different long topic

"why should we not rely on Allah when he guided us our path . we shall certainly bear with patience all the hurt you may cause us. for those who want to put their trust in someone should put their trust in Allah.


#79    Philangeli

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 12:19 PM

View PostKnight Of Shadows, on 25 June 2012 - 12:13 PM, said:

in eaither ways this god is not the same god of islam in other words
allah does not have sons : Quran says
and god does not take forms of humans and cannot be killed or hurt etc etc
there's alot of god's attributes that does not share in common with allah

say and this is mere little example :

- Bible says : Exodus 20:11

For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

- Quran says : Sura 50.38

We created the heavens and the earth and all between them in Six Days, nor did any sense of weariness touch Us
-------------------
so in my personal opinion the god that the bible describes .. is not the same as allah
however the god that jesus spoke of even in the bible.. that's different story  and a different long topic
So, it seems, muslims, themselves, are divided on this question.

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#80    Knight Of Shadows

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 12:26 PM

View PostPhilangeli, on 25 June 2012 - 12:19 PM, said:

So, it seems, muslims, themselves, are divided on this question.
we are all not one mind and one way of thinking to each has it's own ideas
thinking that me and oda speak of different things makes us divided is overracting
yeah we think differently .. we're humans after all :D

to simply put it .. oda and i believe that the bible was sent by allah with jesus also and all muslims believe that
and plus the important point all muslims also believe that the bible has been corrupted by men " no offense to christians "
am just trying to explain something

so the god that this bible speak of ,, is not the same allah that sent jesus because the bible has been changed " muslims opinion "
but to why some muslims say that god of bible is same as allah
they are refering to the god " allah " who sent jesus as messanger

but none the less .. the god within the current bible .. is way far different than allah regarding alot of things

Edited by Knight Of Shadows, 25 June 2012 - 12:28 PM.

"why should we not rely on Allah when he guided us our path . we shall certainly bear with patience all the hurt you may cause us. for those who want to put their trust in someone should put their trust in Allah.


#81    Philangeli

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 12:31 PM

View PostKnight Of Shadows, on 25 June 2012 - 12:13 PM, said:

my friend the bible goes both way one suggest that god is jesus him self
and the other suggest that jesus is just the son of god

in eaither ways this god is not the same god of islam in other words
allah does not have sons : Quran says
and god does not take forms of humans and cannot be killed or hurt etc etc
there's alot of god's attributes that does not share in common with allah

say and this is mere little example :

- Bible says : Exodus 20:11

For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

- Quran says : Sura 50.38

We created the heavens and the earth and all between them in Six Days, nor did any sense of weariness touch Us
-------------------
so in my personal opinion the god that the bible describes .. is not the same as allah
however the god that jesus spoke of even in the bible.. that's different story  and a different long topic
Oh, I see. And, theres little me thinking that the Quran was the literal word of Allah, never changing and always true.

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#82    Knight Of Shadows

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 12:38 PM

View PostPhilangeli, on 25 June 2012 - 12:31 PM, said:

Oh, I see. And, theres little me thinking that the Quran was the literal word of Allah, never changing and always true.
well that's where you got it wrong
Quran is the word of allah and never changing and always true

but there's also other heavenly books that god sent down with other prophets
such as Jesus came with the Bible , and  Torah came with Moses
then Quran came with Mohammad
regarding the previous books , muslims believe they have been corrupted and mangled with by men
therfore god sent down Quran with muhammad and god said that : he will protect it from any change

i have no idea how you mixed up between Quran and Bible though ..

"why should we not rely on Allah when he guided us our path . we shall certainly bear with patience all the hurt you may cause us. for those who want to put their trust in someone should put their trust in Allah.


#83    Mr Walker

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 12:56 PM

View Posteight bits, on 23 June 2012 - 10:06 AM, said:

Mr Walker



In the Koran, at. 4: 157-158, Mohammed describes how Allah orchestrated a false Jewish belief that they crucified Jesus. It is an extraordinary passage, not only for hitting both Christians and Jews with one shot, but also for how it depists Allah congratulating himself for using falsehood to comfort his messenger, by deciving the people to whom the messenger was sent.

If you haven't read this passage, then of course that severly limits the possibility of our discussing it fruitfully.

In any case, the Nicene Christian view is that Jesus is God. The belief is well founded throughout John and elsewhere in the New Testament. It is clear that neither Jews nor Muslims believe that Jesus is their God.

Those that are the same have no differences among them. The Gods of the several Abrahamic scriptures have differences among them. Allah isn't the same as God in the Bible. It's a yes-or-no question, Mr Walker. The answer is no.
Thanks for the info from the koran. I did read it through once about 40 years ago, in my time of study into and reflection on, world religions, but i must admit not  presentlyremembering that or taking much notice of it. It might have been one thing which tipped me towards christianity, because i do experience personally something more like the life of christ as described in the bible in my realtionship with god, but it was more a cultural thing. It just wasnt possible for me to become a muslim in my time and place then.

It is a critical point of difference in interpretation and belief between the two beliefs, but personally  does not afffect me. I walk with the one god. From what i can work out, it is the god of early pagans, of sumerians, hebiru, jew, christian and muslim, and perhaps many more of the worlds faiths. It certainly strongly resembles the god found in those books and stories.

I could  telate to that god as allah or jehovah or god or gaea. The doctrines of his folowers are interesting but neither essential nor divisive to me.

Ah. I see. The followers and disciples of the god(s) put forward propositions  of difference and so we should accept them as truth. Most people who meet god do so from within their own perspectives, and those perspectives vary greatly both as individuals and because people come from very diverse cultures etc.

Perhaps because  god came to me at 22 as a commited atheist and secular humanist, i had no real attachments to any of those beliefs. I just found  that god is god. Humans can make any religion they like from him, based on the old religions or new interpretations, but (apart from the  hypothetical constructs humans create, separate from the one physical god)  these are all based on the one entity. I could start a new religion, if i had the slightest interest, or motivation, in doing so, but it would just be another way of connecting,  or relating, to the one same entity.
No one needs a religious form to physically connect to/with god. It is a one on one, individual, personal, connection and relationship.
That god is the same physical being. Just as hercules or robin hood is the one mythological being. It doesnt matter how many interpretations, tales and beliefs grow up around those beings. Basically they are the same character /being.

People like mohammed or paul /saul create differences, either because they honestly believe they exist, from out of their own connection to god, or because they have their own reasons to do so.

Edited by Mr Walker, 25 June 2012 - 12:59 PM.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#84    odas

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 01:13 PM

View PostPhilangeli, on 25 June 2012 - 12:19 PM, said:

So, it seems, muslims, themselves, are divided on this question.
Just as divided as are christians about Jesus. I hope you will now understand why I say that everyones religion is the true religion. 7 billion people on earth, 7 billion minds, opinions, expectations...... This is why Quran states that that one can not be forced into a religion about keeping ones faith no matter what religion it is. Unfortunately, christians, muslims and jews behave like the worst enemies to God himself.
Non is better or worse then the other. It is time for us to understsnd it.


#85    Philangeli

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 01:36 PM

View Postodas, on 25 June 2012 - 01:13 PM, said:

This is why Quran states that that one can not be forced into a religion about keeping ones faith no matter what religion it is.
Strange, when you consider many of the  verses in the Quran and Suras, reputedly spoken by Allah to Mohammed (hardly the words of peace, tolerance and reconciliation):

Slay them wherever ye find them and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. - 2:191

Fight against them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme. (different translation: ) Fight them until there is no persecution and the religion is God's entirely. - Sura 2:193 and 8:39

But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever you find them. - 4:89

Therefore, we stirred among them enmity and hatred, which shall endure till the Day of Resurrection, when Allah will declare to them all that they have done. - 5:14

O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends; they are friends of each other. Those of you who make them his friends is one of them. God does not guide an unjust people. - 5:54

Make war on them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme - 8:39

O Prophet! Exhort the believers to fight. If there are 20 steadfast men among you, they shall vanquish 200; and if there are a hundred, they shall rout a thousand unbelievers, for they are devoid of understanding. - 8:65

It is not for any Prophet to have captives until he has made slaughter in the land. - 8:67

Allah will humble the unbelievers. Allah and His apostle are free from obligations to idol-worshipers. Proclaim a woeful punishment to the unbelievers. - 9:2-3

When the sacred months are over, slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. - 9:5

Believers! Know that idolators are unclean. - 9:28

Fight those who believe neither in God nor the Last Day, nor what has been forbidden by God and his messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, even if they are People of the Book, until they pay the tribute and have been humbled. - 9:29 (another source: ) The unbelievers are impure and their abode is hell. (another source: ) Humiliate the non-Muslims to such an extent that they surrender and pay tribute.

Whether unarmed or well-equipped, march on and fight for the cause of Allah, with your wealth and your persons. - 9:41
O Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites. Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey's end. - 9:73

Allah has purchased of their faithful lives and worldly goods, and in return has promised them the Garden. They will fight for His cause, kill and be killed. - 9:111

Fight unbelievers who are near to you. 9:123 (different translation:
Believers! Make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Let them find harshness in you. (another source: ) Ye who believe! Murder those of the disbelievers....
As for those who are slain in the cause of Allah, He will not allow their works to perish. He will vouchsafe them guidance and ennoble their state; He will admit them to the Paradise He has made known to them. - 10:4-15

Allah has cursed the unbelievers and proposed for them a blazing hell. - 33:60

Unbelievers are enemies of Allah and they will roast in hell. - 41:14

When you meet the unbelievers, smite their necks, then when you have made wide slaughter among them, tie fast the bonds, then set them free, either by grace or ransom, until the war lays down its burdens. - 47:4
(different translation: ) When you meet the unbelievers in the battlefield, strike off their heads, and when you have laid them low, bind your captives firmly.

Muslims are harsh against the unbelievers, merciful to one another. - 48:25

Muhammad is Allah's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another. Through them, Allah seeks to enrage the unbelievers. - 48:29

Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal sternly with them. Hell shall be their home, evil their fate. - 66:9

The unbelievers among the People of the Book and the pagans shall burn forever in the fire of hell. They are the vilest of all creatures. - 98:51

That is just a sample!

Philangeli


“When thoughts arise, then do all things arise. When thoughts vanish, then do all things vanish.” Huang Po

#86    Knight Of Shadows

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 02:00 PM

View PostPhilangeli, on 25 June 2012 - 01:36 PM, said:

Strange, when you consider many of the  verses in the Quran and Suras, reputedly spoken by Allah to Mohammed (hardly the words of peace, tolerance and reconciliation):

Slay them wherever ye find them and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. - 2:191

Fight against them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme. (different translation: ) Fight them until there is no persecution and the religion is God's entirely. - Sura 2:193 and 8:39

But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever you find them. - 4:89

Therefore, we stirred among them enmity and hatred, which shall endure till the Day of Resurrection, when Allah will declare to them all that they have done. - 5:14

O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends; they are friends of each other. Those of you who make them his friends is one of them. God does not guide an unjust people. - 5:54

Make war on them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme - 8:39

O Prophet! Exhort the believers to fight. If there are 20 steadfast men among you, they shall vanquish 200; and if there are a hundred, they shall rout a thousand unbelievers, for they are devoid of understanding. - 8:65

It is not for any Prophet to have captives until he has made slaughter in the land. - 8:67

Allah will humble the unbelievers. Allah and His apostle are free from obligations to idol-worshipers. Proclaim a woeful punishment to the unbelievers. - 9:2-3

When the sacred months are over, slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. - 9:5

Believers! Know that idolators are unclean. - 9:28

Fight those who believe neither in God nor the Last Day, nor what has been forbidden by God and his messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, even if they are People of the Book, until they pay the tribute and have been humbled. - 9:29 (another source: ) The unbelievers are impure and their abode is hell. (another source: ) Humiliate the non-Muslims to such an extent that they surrender and pay tribute.

Whether unarmed or well-equipped, march on and fight for the cause of Allah, with your wealth and your persons. - 9:41
O Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites. Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey's end. - 9:73

Allah has purchased of their faithful lives and worldly goods, and in return has promised them the Garden. They will fight for His cause, kill and be killed. - 9:111

Fight unbelievers who are near to you. 9:123 (different translation:
Believers! Make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Let them find harshness in you. (another source: ) Ye who believe! Murder those of the disbelievers....
As for those who are slain in the cause of Allah, He will not allow their works to perish. He will vouchsafe them guidance and ennoble their state; He will admit them to the Paradise He has made known to them. - 10:4-15

Allah has cursed the unbelievers and proposed for them a blazing hell. - 33:60

Unbelievers are enemies of Allah and they will roast in hell. - 41:14

When you meet the unbelievers, smite their necks, then when you have made wide slaughter among them, tie fast the bonds, then set them free, either by grace or ransom, until the war lays down its burdens. - 47:4
(different translation: ) When you meet the unbelievers in the battlefield, strike off their heads, and when you have laid them low, bind your captives firmly.

Muslims are harsh against the unbelievers, merciful to one another. - 48:25

Muhammad is Allah's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another. Through them, Allah seeks to enrage the unbelievers. - 48:29

Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal sternly with them. Hell shall be their home, evil their fate. - 66:9

The unbelievers among the People of the Book and the pagans shall burn forever in the fire of hell. They are the vilest of all creatures. - 98:51

That is just a sample!
so basically your question was not about who is allah or how he is samiliar to god of the bible or not ?

"why should we not rely on Allah when he guided us our path . we shall certainly bear with patience all the hurt you may cause us. for those who want to put their trust in someone should put their trust in Allah.


#87    Philangeli

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 02:31 PM

View PostKnight Of Shadows, on 25 June 2012 - 02:00 PM, said:

so basically your question was not about who is allah or how he is samiliar to god of the bible or not ?
??? The question is as stated in the title of this topic. That's what I'm trying to reconcile in my own mind: Is the God I believe in, the Father of mankind, who loves and forgives sinners, the same being as Allah in the Quran who seems to have a thing about smiting unbelievers. It does puzzle me, ...  really. I'm not trying to be flippant.

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#88    odas

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 04:06 PM

View PostPhilangeli, on 25 June 2012 - 02:31 PM, said:

??? The question is as stated in the title of this topic. That's what I'm trying to reconcile in my own mind: Is the God I believe in, the Father of mankind, who loves and forgives sinners, the same being as Allah in the Quran who seems to have a thing about smiting unbelievers. It does
puzzle me, ...  really. I'm not trying to be flippant.

The answer is what ever you personay think it is.
I personaly think it is the same one no matter gow you call him. I call him personaly the CEO of the intergalactical sociaty.
Just as there are christians or jews who think it is not the same there are muslims who regard Allah as different. The question can not be answerd to satisfie all.


#89    Yamato

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 04:33 PM

View PostPhilangeli, on 25 June 2012 - 02:31 PM, said:

??? The question is as stated in the title of this topic. That's what I'm trying to reconcile in my own mind: Is the God I believe in, the Father of mankind, who loves and forgives sinners, the same being as Allah in the Quran who seems to have a thing about smiting unbelievers. It does puzzle me, ...  really. I'm not trying to be flippant.
Is your God, the Father of mankind who loves and forgives sinners, the same being as Yahweh the Christian God from the Old Testament?    If your answer is "Yes, but God changed his mind" then it's just as well for a Muslim to say the same about Allah.

If God is all-powerful why can't he change his mind?  Is it because his mind should have already been made up?  Who suggested it wasn't?   With imperfect subjects come imperfect results.

"The power to declare war, including the power of judging the causes of war, is fully and exclusively vested in the Legislature.  The Executive has no right, in any case, to decide the question" ~ James Madison
"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein
"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela
"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians.  Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." ~ Mahatma Gandhi

#90    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 05:32 PM

Very true...God of the bible changes his mind ..and he is good at creating imperfections..as many believe he is responsible for us...  If he truly does change his mind... can we suggest he also is not all knowing?

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 25 June 2012 - 05:46 PM.

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