Jump to content




Welcome to Unexplained Mysteries! Please sign in or create an account to start posting and to access a host of extra features.


- - - - -

Anti-Materialism


  • Please log in to reply
146 replies to this topic

#31    White Crane Feather

White Crane Feather

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 11,512 posts
  • Joined:12 Jul 2010
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:California

  • Potter: " is this real or is this in my mind?"

    Dumbledore: " Of course it's in your mind....., but that dosn't mean it's not real."

Posted 18 June 2012 - 08:01 PM

View PostRlyeh, on 18 June 2012 - 07:40 PM, said:

Given the many explanations including those that are materialistic, I'm not sure this really refutes materialism.

According to the modern understanding of material, even fundamental particles fit the definition of matter/energy. (this is mostly semantics, the idea matter is only "solid" is a thing of the past)
Even fundamental particles cease to have meaning at the boundaries . Solidity has nothing to do with it.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#32    karmakazi

karmakazi

    Crazy Cat Lady

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,191 posts
  • Joined:27 May 2011
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Phoenix, Arizona

  • That which does not kill us, makes us stranger.

Posted 18 June 2012 - 08:02 PM

View PostSeeker79, on 18 June 2012 - 07:50 PM, said:

I disagree, if it turns out that material as we know it is not more fundamental than say, information, conciousness, or some other concept, then even though it could become common knowledge that dosnt  mean it's still materialism. We dont just change the definition of material so that matirialists don't have to be wrong.

http://en.m.wikipedi...g/wiki/Material

A more concise definition of material will include the property of being able to be located in space & time. Inflation theory, quantum mechanics  all show that in the most fundamental levels "material" no longer applies.

According to the definition you posted, material is something made up of matter.   It is our understanding of what matter is made up that is changing, not the definition of material.

Another way of understanding what I was trying to say is that if something is supernatural and we come to understand what it is and what causes it, it becomes a part of what we consider to be natural.  It's just the progression of human understanding, not a cop out for the idea of materialism.

Which, incidentally, is defined differently than "material".

If I had something witty to say, my signature would be a lot funnier.

#33    Rlyeh

Rlyeh

    Omnipotent Entity

  • Member
  • 9,195 posts
  • Joined:01 Jan 2011
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:The sixth circle

  • Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. - Terry Pratchett

Posted 18 June 2012 - 08:03 PM

View PostSeeker79, on 18 June 2012 - 08:01 PM, said:

Even fundamental particles cease to have meaning at the boundaries . Solidity has nothing to do with it.
Do they exist? Has these boundaries been located?

By boundaries I assume you mean the physical confines of the universe?


#34    Mr. Miyagi

Mr. Miyagi

    "His Dudeness"

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,626 posts
  • Joined:26 May 2009
  • Gender:Male

  • "..."

Posted 18 June 2012 - 08:09 PM

I'm outa here. Don't wanna be rude and split for no apparent reason. I'll be on later tonight or tomorrow again, hopefully! I think Karma and Ryleh are saying what I'm saying in a more concise manner any way lol. Thanks for the discussion Seek!

Edited by Mr. Miyagi, 18 June 2012 - 08:10 PM.


#35    White Crane Feather

White Crane Feather

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 11,512 posts
  • Joined:12 Jul 2010
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:California

  • Potter: " is this real or is this in my mind?"

    Dumbledore: " Of course it's in your mind....., but that dosn't mean it's not real."

Posted 18 June 2012 - 08:15 PM

View Postkarmakazi, on 18 June 2012 - 08:02 PM, said:



According to the definition you posted, material is something made up of matter.   It is our understanding of what matter is made up that is changing, not the definition of material.

Another way of understanding what I was trying to say is that if something is supernatural and we come to understand what it is and what causes it, it becomes a part of what we consider to be natural.  It's just the progression of human understanding, not a cop out for the idea of materialism.

Which, incidentally, is defined differently than "material".
Well I would agree.... Except of course when their is dogmatic resistance to that change in attempting to hold on to an outdated axiom. Material is most likely an illusion of information processes. A character in a video game might be able to see something ( if programming conciousness were possible) but that dosn't mean that thing is a thing. It's not really made out of anything. It's an illusion of information. I don't mind "naturalism" that can encompass a lot more than materialism.

It's not defined all that different.
http://en.m.wikipedi...iki/Materialism

Even wiki recognizes that materialism is a dead thesis..

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#36    White Crane Feather

White Crane Feather

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 11,512 posts
  • Joined:12 Jul 2010
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:California

  • Potter: " is this real or is this in my mind?"

    Dumbledore: " Of course it's in your mind....., but that dosn't mean it's not real."

Posted 18 June 2012 - 08:25 PM

View PostMr. Miyagi, on 18 June 2012 - 08:09 PM, said:

I'm outa here. Don't wanna be rude and split for no apparent reason. I'll be on later tonight or tomorrow again, hopefully! I think Karma and Ryleh are saying what I'm saying in a more concise manner any way lol. Thanks for the discussion Seek!
No problem mr. Miyagi sir. Always a pleasure with you. Don't be a stranger.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#37    Tiggs

Tiggs

    Relax. It's only me.

  • 9,143 posts
  • Joined:30 Jan 2005
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Orange County, California

  • Universe Service Pack 2 still needs patching.

Posted 18 June 2012 - 08:29 PM

View PostSeeker79, on 18 June 2012 - 06:21 PM, said:

Oh something existed to produce this universe. It just wasn't beryonic matter/energy, hence fundamentally existence is not materialistic in nature. Unless you want to have faith in the materialist copout of the nothingverse.
The nothingverse?

Is that the place that the Theist's keep insisting that we came from?


#38    White Crane Feather

White Crane Feather

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 11,512 posts
  • Joined:12 Jul 2010
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:California

  • Potter: " is this real or is this in my mind?"

    Dumbledore: " Of course it's in your mind....., but that dosn't mean it's not real."

Posted 18 June 2012 - 08:34 PM

View PostRlyeh, on 18 June 2012 - 08:03 PM, said:

Do they exist? Has these boundaries been located?

By boundaries I assume you mean the physical confines of the universe?
I think scientists have the bb boundary at 10^-32 seconds or something like that. This is the place where materialism no longer has meaning. As to outside boundaries, I don't think there is any. Scientists tend to think that the universe is currently flat... It should expand forever if it is.

The other boundary is the plank. As we have discussed, the quantum eraser shows through entanglement  that fundamental processes of nature ( collapse of wave behavior into particle behavior) is independent of space or time essentially happening outside of this universe based on those definitions.

Everything points to a concept that is more fundamental than materialism possible more than physicalism. I can't argue with naturalism. Everything that exists is obviously natural. But it doesn't have to be material or even physical.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#39    White Crane Feather

White Crane Feather

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 11,512 posts
  • Joined:12 Jul 2010
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:California

  • Potter: " is this real or is this in my mind?"

    Dumbledore: " Of course it's in your mind....., but that dosn't mean it's not real."

Posted 18 June 2012 - 08:48 PM

View PostTiggs, on 18 June 2012 - 08:29 PM, said:


The nothingverse?

Is that the place that the Theist's keep insisting that we came from?
That's not a theist assertion. My wife just bought me "the grand design" I'll see what exactly hawking says about it I'll be done with it in a few days. I really want to see how he handles how vacume energy can exist pre BB if spacetime supposedly originated with the BB. If the bb was a quantum fluctuation, then the vacuum existed prior to inflation and the  multiverse is a near certainty.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#40    Tiggs

Tiggs

    Relax. It's only me.

  • 9,143 posts
  • Joined:30 Jan 2005
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Orange County, California

  • Universe Service Pack 2 still needs patching.

Posted 18 June 2012 - 09:01 PM

View PostSeeker79, on 18 June 2012 - 08:48 PM, said:

That's not a theist assertion
Then why do I keep having constant debates with them claiming that it's impossible for the singularity to have appeared out of nowhere, then?


#41    White Crane Feather

White Crane Feather

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 11,512 posts
  • Joined:12 Jul 2010
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:California

  • Potter: " is this real or is this in my mind?"

    Dumbledore: " Of course it's in your mind....., but that dosn't mean it's not real."

Posted 18 June 2012 - 09:22 PM

View PostTiggs, on 18 June 2012 - 09:01 PM, said:


Then why do I keep having constant debates with them claiming that it's impossible for the singularity to have appeared out of nowhere, then?
Are they claiming that or you? I would think that that the thiest ( at least the creationist version) would say that god made it apear.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#42    Mr Right Wing

Mr Right Wing

    Poltergeist

  • Banned
  • 2,924 posts
  • Joined:16 Nov 2011
  • Gender:Not Selected

Posted 18 June 2012 - 09:55 PM

View Postkarmakazi, on 18 June 2012 - 03:54 PM, said:

Pixels can create the appearance of a circle however it is not a perfect circle.   It is a visual illusion.

Quote - The area of a circle is defined in maths as 2nr. n is an irrational number meaning it has infinite decimal places. That means the area of a circle would be different in a material universe than a mathmatical one. Why? Well numbers with infinite decimal places violate a legobrick reality thats why.

Experiment
Stand still with your arms stretched out in opposite directions. Your arms now fit inside a perfect circle. If material reductionism is true then that would be impossible. Why? Well its because a perfect circle (2nr) violates a legobrick reality.

What is the area of this circle?

The area of the circle is an irrational number. How can you exist inside a perfect circle and be a legobrick being? Building blocks violates irrational numbers.

Edited by Mr Right Wing, 18 June 2012 - 10:31 PM.


#43    Cybele

Cybele

    Married to the Void

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,432 posts
  • Joined:26 Jan 2008
  • Gender:Female

  • Prick your finger it is done
    The moon has now eclipsed the sun
    The angel has spread its wings
    The time has come for bitter things

Posted 18 June 2012 - 10:18 PM

View PostSeeker79, on 18 June 2012 - 06:21 PM, said:

Oh something existed to produce this universe. It just wasn't beryonic matter/energy, hence fundamentally existence is not materialistic in nature. Unless you want to have faith in the materialist copout of the nothingverse.

Existence is not the same as what once existed; if you want to speculate on a state before or outside of the universe, feel free, but that has no bearing on the applicability of materialism to our present universe/existence.

Edited by Cybele, 18 June 2012 - 10:22 PM.

My sig: "Cryptorchid", Marilyn Manson

#44    Tiggs

Tiggs

    Relax. It's only me.

  • 9,143 posts
  • Joined:30 Jan 2005
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Orange County, California

  • Universe Service Pack 2 still needs patching.

Posted 19 June 2012 - 12:58 AM

View PostSeeker79, on 18 June 2012 - 09:22 PM, said:

Are they claiming that or you? I would think that that the thiest ( at least the creationist version) would say that god made it apear.
I never get into debates with Creationists that claim that, as there's nothing to debate.


#45    Tiggs

Tiggs

    Relax. It's only me.

  • 9,143 posts
  • Joined:30 Jan 2005
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Orange County, California

  • Universe Service Pack 2 still needs patching.

Posted 19 June 2012 - 01:02 AM

View PostMr Right Wing, on 18 June 2012 - 09:55 PM, said:

Experiment
Stand still with your arms stretched out in opposite directions. Your arms now fit inside a perfect circle. If material reductionism is true then that would be impossible. Why? Well its because a perfect circle (2nr) violates a legobrick reality.

What is the area of this circle?

The area of the circle is an irrational number. How can you exist inside a perfect circle and be a legobrick being? Building blocks violates irrational numbers.

A straight line can form the diameter of a circle.

How, exactly, does that violate quantization?.

Edited by Tiggs, 19 June 2012 - 01:50 AM.





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users