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Why do we fear snakes?


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#46    msmike1

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Posted 21 June 2012 - 04:04 PM

 jgorman628, on 21 June 2012 - 02:54 PM, said:

Makes sense, fearing creatures which could cause harm is a survival instinct. Even though we humans are civilized we still have a basic instinct which most of us are not aware of.
Of course. It is a basic survival instict for humans to fear things that could cause harm. It is just odd that so many people seem to have this fear instinct in relation to snakes, when they don't have it in relation to other, more dangerous animals. Snakes on the whole are not very dangerous. As said before the vast majority of them are completely harmless it just seems they are all associated with venom and death. Dogs are far more dangerous than snakes, but how many people do you know that are deathly afraid of every dog they come in contact with and want to chop its head off. Whitetail deer are far more dangerous than most snakes, but when people see one they say Oooo, look a pretty deer. They don't run away screaming, or kill everyone they see.

Mike


#47    Junior Chubb

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Posted 21 June 2012 - 05:13 PM

 msmike1, on 21 June 2012 - 04:04 PM, said:

Of course. It is a basic survival instict for humans to fear things that could cause harm. It is just odd that so many people seem to have this fear instinct in relation to snakes, when they don't have it in relation to other, more dangerous animals. Snakes on the whole are not very dangerous. As said before the vast majority of them are completely harmless it just seems they are all associated with venom and death. Dogs are far more dangerous than snakes, but how many people do you know that are deathly afraid of every dog they come in contact with and want to chop its head off. Whitetail deer are far more dangerous than most snakes, but when people see one they say Oooo, look a pretty deer. They don't run away screaming, or kill everyone they see.

Mike

It is slightly odd that this fear is greater with snakes and spiders compared to other animals that can be just as if not more dangerous. I think the media plays its part in reinforcing these ideas, (not that I completely agree with you about dogs) but dogs, lions, bears, hippos and many other 'dangerous' animals have been portrayed as good guys in the films and books we had growing up as kids and in many other aspects of life (teddy  bears etc.). Snakes and Spiders rarely get cast in these good guy roles in the media we are bombarded with as we grow up.

This could be a mute argument though as this role allocation is probably due to out natural fear of snakes and spiders.

By the way, you can thank Bambi for all the deer lovers :cry:

I've flown from one side of this galaxy to the other. I've seen a lot of strange stuff, but I've never seen anything to make me believe there's one all-powerful Force controlling everything. There's no mystical energy field that controls my destiny. Anyway, it's all a lot of simple tricks and nonsense.

#48    MidKn13ght

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Posted 21 June 2012 - 06:48 PM

So where do spiders come in on this??? Where does our "inheretied" fear of them come from? I dont mind snakes. But let me see a spider and IM OUT!!!!!

Edited by MidKn13ght, 21 June 2012 - 06:49 PM.


#49    msmike1

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Posted 21 June 2012 - 09:23 PM

Well, around 7-8000 people are bitten in the U.S. every year by venomous snakes. Out of those 5-6 people will die. On the other hand every year, according to the CDC, 800,000 people seek treatment for dog bites in the US. and around 16 of those die.

http://www.cdc.gov/H...-factsheet.html

http://ufwildlife.if...nake_faqs.shtml

The second link is to a site with an interesting chart showing number of people killed by different things in the U.S. per year. Snake bites are at the bottom even below spider bites. You also have to take into consideration that a lot of the instances of snake bites happen when people are trying to kill the animal. I would imagine that the vast majority of these people attacked by dogs were not trying to kill it meaning they were somewhat unprovoked. I say this because most snake bites are of a defensive nature, and can even be dry. Dry meaning no venom is injected, just a "leave me the hell alone" type of bite.

Mike


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Posted 22 June 2012 - 12:27 AM

 msmike1, on 21 June 2012 - 09:23 PM, said:

Well, around 7-8000 people are bitten in the U.S. every year by venomous snakes. Out of those 5-6 people will die. On the other hand every year, according to the CDC, 800,000 people seek treatment for dog bites in the US. and around 16 of those die.

http://www.cdc.gov/H...-factsheet.html

http://ufwildlife.if...nake_faqs.shtml

The second link is to a site with an interesting chart showing number of people killed by different things in the U.S. per year. Snake bites are at the bottom even below spider bites. You also have to take into consideration that a lot of the instances of snake bites happen when people are trying to kill the animal. I would imagine that the vast majority of these people attacked by dogs were not trying to kill it meaning they were somewhat unprovoked. I say this because most snake bites are of a defensive nature, and can even be dry. Dry meaning no venom is injected, just a "leave me the hell alone" type of bite.

Mike

Interesting figures and facts (especially the venom info').

As for Dogs vs Snakes in the danger stakes, I don't think you can really compare the two with these figures.

Firstly you have to consider contact, how many people come into to contact with dogs everyday compared to snakes? I would say there is a lot more contact with dogs therefore its an unfair comparison.
Second, anti-venom. A simple injection (if administered in time) can stop death from most would-be fatal snake bites. As for dog bites, there are doctors but no instant fix such as an anti venom, again probably an unfair comparison.
Now if we look at breeds and species, the majority of snakes pose no threat to people whatsoever, most breeds of dog can kill, some can be stamped on like a spider, without knowing breeds and species again its an unfair comparison.
Unprovoked dog attacks (usually bad owners cause these) against a defensive snake attack (mostly uneducated people again) is again an unfair comparison especially if you are looking at a domesticated animal versus a wild animal.

You are doing with dogs what most people do with snakes, you need to separate a Pitbull from a Chihuahua the same way you would probably like people to separate a Rattlesnake from a Grass Snake.

Venomous Snakes versus Wolves might be a fairer comparison. (Sounds like the title of a YouTube video :unsure2: ).

I could never change your view on dogs being more dangerous than snakes (because a Bull Snake is less dangerous than a German Shepherd dog) but your figures might...

1 in 1363 snake bite victims die but only 1 in 50,000 dog bite victims die.

But like I said its an unfair comparison so we will have to agree to disagree.

I've flown from one side of this galaxy to the other. I've seen a lot of strange stuff, but I've never seen anything to make me believe there's one all-powerful Force controlling everything. There's no mystical energy field that controls my destiny. Anyway, it's all a lot of simple tricks and nonsense.

#51    QuiteContrary

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Posted 22 June 2012 - 02:50 AM

 Junior Chubb, on 21 June 2012 - 11:03 AM, said:

Thanks for sharing your story QuiteContrary,  the **** Cobra did puzzle me when I first read it, asterisks are often used on forums to profanity and I was wondering what word you where masking, maybe it was a King Cobra, a
Fuc - King Cobra...

Now those are scary!

Sorry, did not know asterisks are used that way. No, I had originally written King Cobra but edited later.

Keep your eyes wide open and don't run!

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in the existence of a large previously unknown undiscovered hairy biped roaming North America.
But I like to hear the accounts, read the books, watch the shows, discuss and argue about the phenomenon.

#52    psyche101

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Posted 22 June 2012 - 05:40 AM

 Sakari, on 20 June 2012 - 01:53 AM, said:

You read a urban legend psyche :)

Spiders and snakes do not eat people...I remember that story. ( if it is the same one )


Gidday Sakari

The one I know of is Mark Vogel, he was killed by his black widow, and when the found him he was covered in webs and snakes, and his gecko was munching down on him. The Spiders and snake were most likely not feeding on the corpse, but the insects and animals feeding on the corpse along with his pet Gecko. You are right, I probably worded that badly.

This one

Mark Voegel, 30, was found dead in his Dortmund, Germany apartment. His body was draped in spider webs and more than 200 spiders, several snakes, thousands of termites, and a gecko were feasting on his corpse.



LINK





I know he died and was killed by his pet black widow, that much is at find a grave

Birth: 1974 Death: 2004 Posted Image
Mark lived in Dortmund, Germany. He enjoyed owning exotic pets, including more than 200 spiders, several snakes and a gecko. Cause of death was attributed to a bite from his "pet" black widow spider, Bettina. Burial:
Cremated, Other.
Specifically: Dortmund, Germany
Created by: Always with Love
Record added: Feb 13, 2011
Find A Grave Memorial# 65608616


Most definitely not my type of pet. I'll stick with my little puppy :D

Cheers.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo 'If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants.' - Sir Isaac Newton. "Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit." Ed Stewart. Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs. Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Sir Wearer of Hats.


#53    psyche101

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Posted 22 June 2012 - 05:44 AM

 BrianPotter, on 20 June 2012 - 05:18 AM, said:

They all have the right to live..im just glad they dont live in my country(except the little adder,grass snakes)...


That is one reason I want to move to New Zealand. Not venomous anythings. No Snakes at all. No Funnel Webs, nothing deadly. You can sleep out in the open in any place and the only thing that will kill you out there is the cold in winter.

I love New Zealand.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo 'If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants.' - Sir Isaac Newton. "Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit." Ed Stewart. Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs. Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Sir Wearer of Hats.


#54    psyche101

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Posted 22 June 2012 - 05:54 AM

 msmike1, on 21 June 2012 - 02:08 PM, said:

I can say first hand that many water snakes are pretty pissy snakes. I love them, but the bad part is that most see a snake in or near water and it is automatically a water moccasin and needs to die. Ignorant thinking to say the least. I have taken a bite from several different species of water snakes, as we have severl here in the south, and while they do hurt they are completely harmless. I also don't blame them for biting me as I was trying to catch everyone of the ones that bit. Also, very good instruction for anyone in venomous snake territory. As far as captive snakes go, that is an ongoing debate. I have my own feelings on itj, and will be the first to admit some of my feelings may come from selfishness. I love snakes, and want to be around them as much as possible, so I keep a few. Now, I don't keep near as many as I used to, and I use my pets to educate as many as I can about the animals. I also do not keep large snakes, as I do have small children and think it is irresponsible as well as unsafe for anyone with small children to keep large snakes.

Another thing about captive snakes, people see a 5ft long ball python in a 50 gallon aquarium and think that it is a pretty small environment and that the snake doesn't have very much room. Truth is, most snakes are not big travelers. By nature they lay in one spot most of the day and really only move to thermoregulate or find food. Niether of these are a problem in my tanks as they have hot spots, cool spots, climbing branches, water to soak in, and hide boxes which are very important because snakes don't like to sit in the open and if they can't hide it stresses them out.

I also would like to thank everyone who has participated in this thread. Snakes are a passion of mine and I can sit and talk for hours about them to anyone that will listen. It also saddens me that so many hate them and are scared to death of them with their first instinct being to kill them, or swerve to run over them without even knowing what kind of snake it is. There are also so many myths surrounding snakes that its mind boggling. Please, educate yourself on the snakes in your area, hell, if you don't want to take the time ask me and I'll do it for you just give me your state, country, whatever. Maybe next time you see a snake you might stop and think about this thread, and before chopping its head off say to yourself "Hey thats not a venomous snake, why kill it, and let it crawl" Before doing that you must educate yourself on how to tell the difference between venomous and non.

Does this mean that whilst you do not advocate it, you abide by others killing venomous snakes? As long as they are venomous?

I live in SE Queensland Australia. Green snakes are likely to be tree snakes, and I rarely see them, but I do not kill them. I avoid them. But I found a Red Bellied Black swimming in my pool. I rang the RSPCA, they did not want to know, so I rang the council, they did not want to know, so I rang the local WIldlife Sanctuary who put me onto the local snake catcher. I rang him up, he was half drunk at a bar and said he could get there in an hour, but it would cost me $80.00 for him to show up, wether the snake had left by then or not.

Nobody wants to help if you have one of these nasties in your backyard, so options tend to be rather limited. Its illegal to kill them here too as far as I know.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo 'If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants.' - Sir Isaac Newton. "Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit." Ed Stewart. Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs. Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Sir Wearer of Hats.


#55    psyche101

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Posted 22 June 2012 - 05:57 AM

 msmike1, on 21 June 2012 - 09:23 PM, said:

Well, around 7-8000 people are bitten in the U.S. every year by venomous snakes. Out of those 5-6 people will die. On the other hand every year, according to the CDC, 800,000 people seek treatment for dog bites in the US. and around 16 of those die.

http://www.cdc.gov/H...-factsheet.html

http://ufwildlife.if...nake_faqs.shtml

The second link is to a site with an interesting chart showing number of people killed by different things in the U.S. per year. Snake bites are at the bottom even below spider bites. You also have to take into consideration that a lot of the instances of snake bites happen when people are trying to kill the animal. I would imagine that the vast majority of these people attacked by dogs were not trying to kill it meaning they were somewhat unprovoked. I say this because most snake bites are of a defensive nature, and can even be dry. Dry meaning no venom is injected, just a "leave me the hell alone" type of bite.

Mike

I am still not going to trade my puppy for a Taipan!

:lol:

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo 'If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants.' - Sir Isaac Newton. "Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit." Ed Stewart. Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs. Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Sir Wearer of Hats.


#56    GoSC

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Posted 22 June 2012 - 07:18 AM

 psyche101, on 22 June 2012 - 05:40 AM, said:

Gidday Sakari

The one I know of is Mark Vogel, he was killed by his black widow, and when the found him he was covered in webs and snakes, and his gecko was munching down on him. The Spiders and snake were most likely not feeding on the corpse, but the insects and animals feeding on the corpse along with his pet Gecko. You are right, I probably worded that badly.

This one

Mark Voegel, 30, was found dead in his Dortmund, Germany apartment. His body was draped in spider webs and more than 200 spiders, several snakes, thousands of termites, and a gecko were feasting on his corpse.



LINK





I know he died and was killed by his pet black widow, that much is at find a grave

Birth: 1974 Death: 2004 Posted Image
Mark lived in Dortmund, Germany. He enjoyed owning exotic pets, including more than 200 spiders, several snakes and a gecko. Cause of death was attributed to a bite from his "pet" black widow spider, Bettina. Burial:
Cremated, Other.
Specifically: Dortmund, Germany
Created by: Always with Love
Record added: Feb 13, 2011
Find A Grave Memorial# 65608616


Most definitely not my type of pet. I'll stick with my little puppy :D

Cheers.

I remember this ghastly case, including this gross detail
Spoiler

I used to catch black widows way back when I was 8 or 9 years old. And even kept them as an adult. They make fine pets as long as one is mature and gives them the proper respect. I forgot alot of the details about this case, BUT obviously he must have been handling the black widow (maybe intentional envenomation which could entail he received a larger then usual dose of venom from a provoked POed black widow due to mishandleage). I cant recall the details. I dont believe it was a suicide and set his animals loose. But whatever.

A healthy adult male getting bit by a black widow has PLENTY of time to seek medication attention to get shot up full of antivenin and painkillers. Just pick up the phone and dial 911 or go down to emergency themselves (with assistance if necessary). But the advanced stages of a SERIOUS envenomation could entail Latrodectism - where the venom induces severe muscle cramping, profuse sweating, a rock hard washboard stomache cramping that has been  measured to appenditicis in the pain factor, etc, etc, etc. Most anybody that gets bitten by a black widow has plenty of time to seek medical attention (but seek it immediately) even after the advanced stages of Latrodectism sets in.

If Mark Voegel had sought medical attention during any time he was physically able even through dialing a friend, he would be alive and loving his exotics to this very day. So I believe but cant recall, it was either intentional (or incidental but Mark attempted to ride it through without medical attention) or a suicide. Fatal bites by black widows is an extremely extremely rare event today due to the massive success of modern medical treatment.

Edited by dside, 22 June 2012 - 07:28 AM.

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#57    GoSC

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Posted 22 June 2012 - 09:55 AM

Forget most of what I wrote in the post above. ^^^^^

Or better yet, can admins delete it as I was working on memory alone

I did alittle investigating on the Mark Voegel case. The Black Widow is the suspected culprit and how all his pets got loose is the heat lamps burst the glass terrarium tanks.

Just to further iterate some points, black widow bites arent instant death furthermore black widow bites are rarely fatal. If the black widow is the culprit it makes no sense why he didnt get medical attention and save himself.  Maybe an extreme reaction but still it would not be instant death. But aside from the former possible cause, we're talking a matter of hours to days even of untreated envenomation. The most susceptible to animal venoms are children, the elderly, and those with compromised immune systems but there are children and elderly survivors of widow bites. Fatal black widow bites is rare.

"I charge thee in the sight of God, who giveth life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed the good confession; that thou keep the commandment, without spot, without reproach, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: which in its own times he shall show, WHO IS THE BLESSED AND ONLY POTENTE, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS; who only hath immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power eternal. Amen" (I Tim 6:13-16).

#58    White Crane Feather

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Posted 22 June 2012 - 12:05 PM

 dside, on 21 June 2012 - 09:02 AM, said:



I believe camel spiders can only live in deserts and they are nonvenomous. The extra large ones such as found in the Middle East and Africa have no difficulty preying on small vertebrates such as lizards, mice, and snakes which they macerate with powerful chelicerae. And all of them can be abit  ballsy when molested by human beings but known for their incredible speed thus they are also called windscorpion, one moment they're there the next *beep,beep* they're gone.

They are supposed to be in the desert, but they are spreading. When I was a child they were around my dads fruit business. At the time we did not know what they were so we called them vampire bugs. I never went barefoot around that place.

Just a few years ago a small one crawled out of the mats at my martial arts school. I kept it for a while as a pet.

They are cool, bug ugly as hell.

Another one that creeps me out are house centipedes. I did not know what those were for a long time either. Turns out they have a nasty sting and run around houses at night.... Lovely.

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#59    Sakari

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Posted 22 June 2012 - 08:04 PM

 dside, on 22 June 2012 - 09:55 AM, said:

Forget most of what I wrote in the post above. ^^^^^

Or better yet, can admins delete it as I was working on memory alone

I did alittle investigating on the Mark Voegel case. The Black Widow is the suspected culprit and how all his pets got loose is the heat lamps burst the glass terrarium tanks.

Just to further iterate some points, black widow bites arent instant death furthermore black widow bites are rarely fatal. If the black widow is the culprit it makes no sense why he didnt get medical attention and save himself.  Maybe an extreme reaction but still it would not be instant death. But aside from the former possible cause, we're talking a matter of hours to days even of untreated envenomation. The most susceptible to animal venoms are children, the elderly, and those with compromised immune systems but there are children and elderly survivors of widow bites. Fatal black widow bites is rare.


I also kept some Black Widows as " pets ", but left them in the garage in their own web...I would feed them bugs that were in the house, or in the garage...Growing up in Nevada, there were black widows everywhere you looked....I posted a pic of one of them somewhere on here long ago.....

I was bit by one around 1982 or so, I did not seek medical attention, and did not get sick.Made a gross looking yellowish, bruise like area near my elbow.....

Posted Image


Kind of like that......


But quickly, the venom runs and spreads through the veins, thus attacking the nervous system and causing the victim to develop certain symptoms such as swelling, reddening, nausea, stomachaches, muscular spasms, thorax cramps, abdomen and leg cramps, as well as contractions and deep pain.
Eventually, the venom strikes the nervous terminals, making it hard to breathe and swallow. The symptoms aggravate if the patient does not receive proper treatment/care : chills, sweating, convulsions, deep nausea, headaches, fever and paralysis. However, most cases do not grow so severe.




I should mention I " squished " the spider the same time or if not before it bit me, although I did have above picture wound......Did it working in a " haunted house " for charity.

Not sure why it did not effect me at all.....I was 15 yrs old.




The Black Widow Spider Bite
So, what gives the Black Widow such a bad rep?
Besides the misconceptions mentioned above, it is true that the Black Widow Bite can be serious or even deadly for some people. To be specific, young children, the elderly, and the frail can be more severely affected, as can anyone with an allergy to the venom.
The venom is a potent neurotoxic protein that affects the nervous system, and is about 15 times stronger than a rattlesnake's. Nausea, muscle aches and paralysis of the diaphragm may impair the breathing of human victims.
Whew! Pretty frightening stuff, huh? Don't let it scare you, though. The Black Widow Spider rarely bites humans, and most bites don't even break the skin anyway. Human skin is quite tough, you know. Most people who are bitten walk away with a precautionary tetanus shot, but without any serious harm.
So, you see: in the case of the Black Widow versus Human, the lady spider stands little chance to even put a scratch mark on us. But this doesn't mean you can recklessly work outside without a care for her bite. That would be foolish!......
http://www.my-pest-c...dow-spider.html

Our Wolf's Memorial Page

http://petsupports.com/a04/sakari.htm


#60    QuiteContrary

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Posted 22 June 2012 - 08:48 PM

I read the only company that makes coral snake antivenin is not making it any more so, bites will be more dangerous. Don't know if it was only coral snake antivenom they've stopped making .
I guess there is no profit in making it.
Coral snakes are not uncommon in my county and not so hard to find since they are diurnal. But thankfully, not aggressive and very brightly colored.

Keep your eyes wide open and don't run!

P.S. Just to be clear, because sometimes I am not. I do not believe...
in the existence of a large previously unknown undiscovered hairy biped roaming North America.
But I like to hear the accounts, read the books, watch the shows, discuss and argue about the phenomenon.




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