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Questioning christianity's originality

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#151    eight bits

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 06:21 PM

Tiggs

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"Why is the sky blue?" and "How is the sky blue?" are both the same question, but one presupposes a Designer.

Yours is  a nice example of "Natural language is robust and fault-tolerant. I can sometimes ask why when I seek factual information ... or how when I seek worth information ..."

Many people would see the two versions as the same question. Although I disagree that the why version leads (presupposes its answer), we seem to be in agreement that the two versions seek different information.

So, describing two questions that seek distinct information as "both the same question" is also a nice example of natural langauge being robust and fault tolerant :) .

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#152    Tiggs

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 09:08 PM

View Posteight bits, on 10 July 2012 - 06:21 PM, said:

Many people would see the two versions as the same question. Although I disagree that the why version leads (presupposes its answer), we seem to be in agreement that the two versions seek different information.

In general, with questions concerning Natural phenomenon, I think that "Why" type questions imply purpose and/or design and so ultimately seek the answer "Because the Designer wills it to be so".


#153    AzTide

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 11:16 PM

View Postthe L, on 10 July 2012 - 06:12 PM, said:

No its not. You need to check history of hisotry. :tu:



I have checked many parts of History and the Bible... Actually you have yet to present evidence of real accredited historians that agree with your point.. Even Christian Churches don't agree with you...

I will give you this.. http://www.cai.org/b...-really-history


Modern Biblical scholarship has often challenged the historicity of Scriptures. This, in turn, affects the way in which the Bible is treated in education - especially public education. While history is an accepted subject for study, the Bible is considered other than history, and not fit for study as actual history. Sometimes teachers even ridicule students who accept the Bible as history.

Many people who think that they are experts have begun to say that the Bible doesn't report history in a way we should consider it "real" history today. As a result, not only public education, but also many in the church reject the Bible as responsible history. There are pockets of resistance where the Scriptures are really studies, and if you belong in a church where you really study, praise God.

But in many places the study of Scripture has given way to the manipulation of Scripture. People forget about the history, the heroes, the events that many have studied as children. Instead, they begin to read a verse here, a verse there, trying to find the "true," the "spiritual" meaning of the Bible.

There is a connection between much of the modern church's rejection of the Bible as history and the ridicule of Bible-believing students by some public educators. Those who are hostile to Christianity are often heard to say, "You believe what the Bible says about creation? Even the churches don't believe that!" So, let's ask Scripture itself whether it is history.

The Bible never uses the word "history", according to Young's Analytical Concordance (for the King James Version), and Strong's Exhaustive Concordance (for the New American Standard Bible). The word may be absent, but the concept is not. The Bible uses words such as "record", "chronicle", and "account" instead. They mean to indicate the same thing as we mean by "history".


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"For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible." Stuart Chase

"A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have."  Thomas Jefferson

#154    eight bits

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 12:35 AM

Tiggs

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In general, with questions concerning Natural phenomenon, I think that "Why" type questions imply purpose and/or design and so ultimately seek the answer "Because the Designer wills it to be so".

I see a greater diversity in possible evaluators than you do. The original remark that precipitated this line of discussion,

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Im thinking on science that they trys to answer question How not Why. Why is for religion and philosophy.

cast a wider net than creator-theistic religions, wider than religions, period. Even those religions that do feature a designing creator might allow some natural phenomena to be influenced by other beings' sense of worth.

Example Q. Why are there almost-human primate fossils?  A. The devil made them to deceive us.

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#155    tito48

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 04:25 AM

zeitgeist refuted. watch it


#156    Tiggs

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 05:13 AM

View Posteight bits, on 11 July 2012 - 12:35 AM, said:

I see a greater diversity in possible evaluators than you do.
I think if you keep digging down into "Why" long enough, you'll eventually get to the demiurge.

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Example Q. Why are there almost-human primate fossils?  A. The devil made them to deceive us.
Q: Why did the devil deceive us? A: Because God willed it to be so.


#157    texaskat

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 06:38 AM

I'm a Christian *not a fanantic) still learning a lot of things, one reason I love ancient history so much.  I beleive Jesus existed, not just because of Christian teachings but from history I have read.  I have a neurological problem and cannot remember where I read what at times so I cannot tell you where to look.  The Bible is a great history book as well as Bible for Christians.  Science has found lots of things to be where they were told they would be in the Bible.

Cecil B. DeMile was a great director but even he had to put a lot of Hollywood pizzaz in his movies.  It was a while before I knew about that and believed his account of things to be accuate. Even so the movies were a great learning experience for non Christians as well as Christians.

Forgive me, my mind sometimes goes in too many directions at once.  Not crazy just have some misfires in my brain at times.

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#158    eight bits

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 08:57 AM

Tiggs

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Q: Why did the devil deceive us? A: Because God willed it to be so.

Yes, both how and why questions can be chained indefinitely. The only possibility for the conversation with a persistent questionner to end is for the informant to state a closer. It is possible that an informant might have a preferred closer, like the frustrated secular parent's "Because that's just the way it is."

As I've said many times in many contexts, insh'allah is not an explanation, but an announcement that no explanation is forthcoming. It is a closer.

It does not follow that the go-to closer is unique within a belief system. Continuing the fossil example, the devil is an autonomous agent in some belief systems. The base reason may not be that God wills it, but rather that God tolerates it to be so. Compare the Hebrews' decision to have a king. That is a difference that justifies a question to decide.

And, of course, depending on the context, the question might not have been part of a quest for an ultimate cause in the first place, but rather an inquiry into a more proximate cause. That is, the information actually sought may have been about the devil's thinking, not any ultimate rulership. The sincere inquirer, rather than an exasperated informant, might end the chain without the need for a closer reply.

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#159    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 11:01 AM

View Postthe L, on 10 July 2012 - 06:12 PM, said:

. You need to check history of hisotry. :tu:

Check history of history?.... Where to begin eh?    :D

I am just pulling your leg  lol

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#160    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 08:42 PM

Four people record life on one person is called history.
You might only argue is it true what they wrote. Did all four people lied? I
Many time not so clever people think for example that Herodotus was a bad historian because he written down believes of ancient people. Its history of many mysteries, myths, fantasy beings like werevolves, giants and so on. Herodotus was genius because one needs to wrote down all because we need to understand beliefs of ancient people if we want to understand them and theirs/us history.

Herodotus wanted to understand Greek Persian wars so he start writting. Livy wrote Roman history and myth about brothers fe by wolf. Many historians dont think thats true story. Not true=Not important. You see those historians are bad historians like bad cops, bad doctors. Everything is important. How they dress, what they ate, what they believe?

I can quote you many historians in purpose that you understand what is history book.
You see I asume your 1st language is english. In english you have two words "history" and "story" but in French which is I think language id far richer (imo-no offence) then English they have only one word for "history" and "story" - histoire.

Historians trough history didnt wrote as todays historians wrote. History is science and therefore self correcting.

Or you can say different about history is inquiry so that we have history and historiography.

View PostBeckys_Mom, on 11 July 2012 - 11:01 AM, said:

Check history of history?.... Where to begin eh? :D

I am just pulling your leg  lol

Start with Herodotus.

JFK: "And we are as a people, inherently and historically, opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.
For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#161    Tiggs

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 01:35 AM

View Posteight bits, on 11 July 2012 - 08:57 AM, said:

Yes, both how and why questions can be chained indefinitely. The only possibility for the conversation with a persistent questionner to end is for the informant to state a closer. It is possible that an informant might have a preferred closer, like the frustrated secular parent's "Because that's just the way it is."

Agreed. The point I'm making, however, is that a "Why" closer is always some form of "Because the creator wishes it to be so", while the "How" closer is always some form of "Don't know".

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As I've said many times in many contexts, insh'allah is not an explanation, but an announcement that no explanation is forthcoming. It is a closer.

It does not follow that the go-to closer is unique within a belief system. Continuing the fossil example, the devil is an autonomous agent in some belief systems. The base reason may not be that God wills it, but rather that God tolerates it to be so. Compare the Hebrews' decision to have a king. That is a difference that justifies a question to decide.

For the purposes of this discussion - I see no practical difference between God tolerating something as opposed to wishing something.

If God wished it otherwise - then it would be otherwise.

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And, of course, depending on the context, the question might not have been part of a quest for an ultimate cause in the first place, but rather an inquiry into a more proximate cause. That is, the information actually sought may have been about the devil's thinking, not any ultimate rulership. The sincere inquirer, rather than an exasperated informant, might end the chain without the need for a closer reply.

Regardless of depth of inquiry, I believe that "Why" can always be adequately replaced with "For what purpose"

Edited by Tiggs, 12 July 2012 - 01:35 AM.


#162    eight bits

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 10:19 AM

Tiggs

Let's try this, then. If the informant believes in an omnipotent and unconstrained God, then a reason for anything is ultimately that God wills it. The questioner might be interested in something more proximate, but nevertheless, "God wills it," despite being a closer rather than an explanation, will be a believed and responsive answer to any why-question for that informant.

On the other hand, most of the people I deal with believe that God is constrained.:In their view, he is subject to logical consistency, he can bind himself to keep his word (freely, but once having done so, he is no longer free to violate his word), he can resolve to behave in certain ways without being bound (especially, to accommodate the free will of his creatures), ... and so on. "God wills it" is not always what this kind of informant believes.

Now, obviously, if the person asking a why-question doesn't care whether God is allowing something, respecting a promise, or exercising his unfettered discretion, then none of those things are the information sought. But that's not an inherent feature of the question. Somebody else asking what is formally the same question may be interested in just that sort of distinction.

Thee versus me, for instance, apparently.

Anyway, returning to what started this line of inquiry, somebody saying that Jones is looking at how-questions while Smith is looking at why-questions is saying something substantive about a difference between Smith and Jones. That difference is worthy of remark, IMO, whether or not Smith displays much variety in what she comes up with in the way of why-answers.

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#163    Tiggs

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 04:42 PM

View Posteight bits, on 12 July 2012 - 10:19 AM, said:

Tiggs

Let's try this, then. If the informant believes in an omnipotent and unconstrained God, then a reason for anything is ultimately that God wills it. The questioner might be interested in something more proximate, but nevertheless, "God wills it," despite being a closer rather than an explanation, will be a believed and responsive answer to any why-question for that informant.

On the other hand, most of the people I deal with believe that God is constrained.:In their view, he is subject to logical consistency, he can bind himself to keep his word (freely, but once having done so, he is no longer free to violate his word), he can resolve to behave in certain ways without being bound (especially, to accommodate the free will of his creatures), ... and so on. "God wills it" is not always what this kind of informant believes.

Now, obviously, if the person asking a why-question doesn't care whether God is allowing something, respecting a promise, or exercising his unfettered discretion, then none of those things are the information sought. But that's not an inherent feature of the question. Somebody else asking what is formally the same question may be interested in just that sort of distinction.

Thee versus me, for instance, apparently.

Why implies Purpose implies Designer.

How a Designer has arrived at a particular decision to give (or allow) something that purpose is a detail that will differ from religious group to religious group.

That we have a Designer involved somewhere in the decision-making process is sufficient, for my current purposes.

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Anyway, returning to what started this line of inquiry, somebody saying that Jones is looking at how-questions while Smith is looking at why-questions is saying something substantive about a difference between Smith and Jones. That difference is worthy of remark, IMO, whether or not Smith displays much variety in what she comes up with in the way of why-answers.

I agree. My claim is that Why-questions imply purpose imply designer.

Hence, it's my belief that asking "why is the sky blue", "For what purpose is the sky blue" and "for what purpose did the designer make the sky blue" are just different length versions of the same question.

Or - since we're returning to the beginning - Religion answers Why Questions, Science answers How Questions.

Obviously - from my point of view - very few Why questions are valid, at all.


#164    Sensible Logic

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 06:02 PM

View PostYamato, on 07 July 2012 - 04:37 PM, said:

How do you know God isn't a non-interventionist? It would seem based on evidence that if God exists, he is one.

You must be referring to evidence outside the bible because the bible clearly shows him/her as an interventionist.

The sheer odds of a civilization advancing, developing space travel, deciding to search our little corner of the galaxy, arriving at just the right time and actually helping us is so huge, you would have a greater chance of winning several lotteries in a single year. - SensibleLogic

#165    eight bits

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 06:15 PM

Tiggs

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Or - since we're returning to the beginning - Religion answers Why Questions, Science answers How Questions.

And so, on the point actually raised, you and I agree that the poster raised the point properly.

Even though we look at it from distinct perspectives (just guessing, but that poster may well see aspects of this differently than either of us), nevertheless a Kumbaya moment descends upon us.

Alleluia.

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