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Questioning christianity's originality

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#61    Tiggs

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Posted 30 June 2012 - 04:59 PM

View Posteight bits, on 30 June 2012 - 09:14 AM, said:

But he's not literally a Passover sacrifice in the first place. The allusion is entirely literary. Jesus is a human being, and so ineligible for that role. He's thoroughly "blemished," too, for that matter.

Ah. That's interesting. There we do disagree. While John is the least subtle, the allusion is present in the other Gospels, too. I think that the claim is that Jesus was literally the Passover sacrifice & hence - the sin offering for the world. I don't see how the New Testament hangs together, otherwise.

In context - it is the blood of the sacrificed lamb which protects the people of Israel - and the blood of the lamb sacrificed by the priests which protects those who were not ceremonially clean. .
Exodus 12:
21 Then Moses summoned all the elders of Israel and said to them, “Go at once and select the animals for your families and slaughter the Passover lamb.
22 Take a bunch of hyssop, dip it into the blood in the basin and put some of the blood on the top and on both sides of the doorframe. None of you shall go out of the door of your house until morning.
23 When the Lord goes through the land to strike down the Egyptians, he will see the blood on the top and sides of the doorframe and will pass over that doorway, and he will not permit the destroyer to enter your houses and strike you down.

2 Chronicles 30:
16Then they took up their regular positions as prescribed in the Law of Moses the man of God. The priests splashed against the altar the blood handed to them by the Levites.
17 Since many in the crowd had not consecrated themselves, the Levites had to kill the Passover lambs for all those who were not ceremonially clean and could not consecrate their lambs to the Lord.
18 Although most of the many people who came from Ephraim, Manasseh, Issachar and Zebulun had not purified themselves, yet they ate the Passover, contrary to what was written. But Hezekiah prayed for them, saying, “May the Lord, who is good, pardon everyone"

The last supper is where Jesus talks of himself as the Passover Lamb, sacrificed by the priests for the sake of the unconsecrated:

Mark 14:
22 While they were eating, Jesus took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take it; this is my body.”
23 Then he took a cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them, and they all drank from it.
24 “This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many,” he said to them.


And as Paul echo's here:

1 Corinthians 5
7 Get rid of the old yeast, so that you may be a new unleavened batch—as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed.


And returning to old-school:

Genesis 22
8 Abraham answered, “God himself will provide the lamb for the burnt offering, my son.” And the two of them went on together.


Quote

An elite author is calling attention to a detail of ritual compliance, in a scene which otherwise shouts how loose the allusion is. It's like talking about Kosher salt being used at a clambake.

I'm not going to fight your position that Jesus' death doesn't fulfill the literal requirements of a Passover Sacrifice. It wasn't performed indoors, for a start, and crucifixion for Lambs isn't exactly in the sacrificial manual, either.

Quote

We know that John plays mythological motifs off each other. For example, his unique water-to-wine incident takes on Dionysus directly, while altogether avoiding the signature wine ritual which furnished a basis for Dionysus parallels. John's telling of the miracle also does an elegant job of demolishing Mother-Mary-is-really-Isis imagery, which can be read into two of the other Gospels. I'll bet critics did use that, even as early as the late First Century.

So, I suspect he's doing myth-busting here, too. I could be wrong, but that's what I think is going on.

We know from the earlier Matthew that body-snatching stories existed from the outset.  Body snatching stories often include body disposal elements, sometimes colorful ones. Osiris was pretty well disposed of. Isis had to work her butt off to get close to reconstructing him. Mary Magdalene, in John and only in John, asks Isis' question, Where is the body of my beloved?, and a complete restoration walks right up to her. Hmm.

Well, it's possible. The Gospel of John is, in my opinion, a rewritten version of the Synoptics, with some inbuilt apologetics -  Doubting Thomas, for example.

I still think that it's an appeal to Christ as the passover lamb. Perhaps it's a twofer.

Quote

No, I don't think you're the one who proposes this kind of argument. You tend to look for the sources in the Hebrew Bible, and I agree that that's where the mother lode is. However, at a certain point in church history, those dependencies would more readily be seen as marks of legitimacy, not cause for suspicion.

Agreed. I strongly suspect that the Virgin Birth, for example, was an early addition to the Gospels in order to add legitimacy to the claim of Christ being "Special".


#62    AzTide

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Posted 30 June 2012 - 05:08 PM

View PostYamato, on 30 June 2012 - 10:33 AM, said:

Because it doesn't matter to Christians what version of the Commandments their church uses.   People really ought to go to church so they can figure out what matters from what doesn't.   The sheer volume of nonsense that continuously gets assigned to Christians on this board is remarkable.

If information is 50 or 100 years after Christ, it's inaccurate because of the time that passed.  If it's information during the time of Christ, it's inaccurate because the Bible is JK Rowling.  If it's information from before the time of Christ, well that's just plain silly.   I don't know what the question is anymore when every question devolves into the same atheist BS that Christ either didn't exist or who cares if he did?   If that's going to be what every discussion about Christianity devolves to, this is obviously just another long winded atheist game of begging the question.


If Christians do not care which set of Ten Commandments they use then why get so upset when atheists want them removed from courthouses? The Hypocrisy alone in Christians is just mind blowing. They way they pick and chose what is relevant and when it's relevancy matters. And it's not nonsense you just don't like the facts being pointed out..

People enjoy pointing out how inaccurate the bible is because simple minded people continue to make excuses and defend a flawed book and go way out of their way to persecute gays and other groups because this work of fiction called the Bible says something that they INTERPRETED to mean it's evil. Those same people always forget or excuses away the parts of the Bible that do not agree with their teachings or beliefs.

What is written in the book we know as the was ripped off from many cultures and religions and passed off as the one true word of God. "And funny enough ever religion threw out time says their God and his book is the one true religion" And then people get sucked into believing it and when someone points out the obvious lies then the believers get defensive and attack and when facts and common sense over rides the argument the believers throw out "You have to have Faith".

Just because you drank the Kool Aid that doesn't make the rest of us are morons as well..

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#63    AzTide

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Posted 30 June 2012 - 05:12 PM

View PostYamato, on 30 June 2012 - 10:35 AM, said:

I didn't say anything.  I asked a question.  The same could be asked of Jesus you mean?   Okay, what originality is that?  Let's throw you into the den of dogs and see how you do.

What is the Den of Dogs?

“He who controls the present controls the past”  George Orwell

"It is incumbent on every generation to pay its own debts as it goes. A principle which if acted on would save one-half the wars of the world."  Thomas Jefferson

"For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible." Stuart Chase

"A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have."  Thomas Jefferson

#64    eight bits

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Posted 30 June 2012 - 06:32 PM

Tiggs

Well, you're a better Bible preacher than many evangelists! Bravo! The only thing I would clarify for Sunday's sermon is that Paul actually gives the eucharistic institution narrative outright at 1 Corinthians 11: 23-26; Mark is the second survivng recorded instance. It looks like both might be quoting some liturgical manual or memorized ritual.

The imagery of a paschal lamb for a decedent who is Jewish, killed at or around Passover in Jerusalem, and arguably with the complicity of other Jews,  is a sufficiently obvious figure of speech that I don't think I need to labor that it is a figure of speech.

No amount of repetition of the image for the benefit of Gentiles, however, will summon into being a Jewish or Hebrew tradition of human sacrifice. That is the clear point of the Isaac story, that the seed of Abraham will not be doing any human sacrifice, ever, for any cause or pretext.

About 1400 years after John, a branch of Christianity arose in which Jesus' assassination, in and of itself, redeems believers. There's simply no clear evidence of that idea being widely accepted long before that, although it is now routinely retrojected onto Paul's arguments that Gentiles sholudn't obey Mosaic Law to qualify as righteous Gentiles. Reformation is way too far in John's future to be an aid in understanding his views about the event's significance to him.

Quote

Well, it's possible. The Gospel of John is, in my opinion, a rewritten version of the Synoptics, with some inbuilt apologetics -  Doubting Thomas, for example.

I think it's a partial refutation of the synoptics and Paul. Maybe a "separation of the wheat from the chaff." And since it has come up, there is no eucharistic instituion narrative in John, despite his love of the paschal lamb imagery.

I conjecture that we're looking at the literature of a sparingly orthodox subsect within ancient Christianity that somehow managed to avoid being ostracized as "heretical," possibly by having some high-status members. Then their stuff came in handy a few centuries later when it was time to invent trinitarian monotheism. So, maybe it just didn't matter too much if John threw a few elbows at the earlier canon. All in my opinion.

Quote

Agreed. I strongly suspect that the Virgin Birth, for example, was an early addition to the Gospels in order to add legitimacy to the claim of Christ being "Special".

* Handshakes all around. *

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#65    Beany

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 02:36 AM

Speaking to the original post, yes, there have been many religious figures with the same qualities as ascribed to jesus, which is why the story of jesus was so readily accepted by the common folk. Culturally & historically, there were so many Christ-like gods that it was easy for people to accept the the story of Jesus as being true. Historically, Jesus was not a unique religious concept or being. I suppose people believed in Horus or Dionysus just a strongly as Christians believe in Jesus. We're talking about belief, not fact. While the bible may be true, every word of it, there is no way to prove it, so it comes down to belief, to which we're all entitled. What makes me crazy are the people crowing about the superiority of their beliefs, kind of a spiritual one-upsmanship, so to speak.


#66    Yamato

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 02:47 AM

View PostAzTide, on 30 June 2012 - 05:08 PM, said:

If Christians do not care which set of Ten Commandments they use then why get so upset when atheists want them removed from courthouses? The Hypocrisy alone in Christians is just mind blowing. They way they pick and chose what is relevant and when it's relevancy matters. And it's not nonsense you just don't like the facts being pointed out..

People enjoy pointing out how inaccurate the bible is because simple minded people continue to make excuses and defend a flawed book and go way out of their way to persecute gays and other groups because this work of fiction called the Bible says something that they INTERPRETED to mean it's evil. Those same people always forget or excuses away the parts of the Bible that do not agree with their teachings or beliefs.

What is written in the book we know as the was ripped off from many cultures and religions and passed off as the one true word of God. "And funny enough ever religion threw out time says their God and his book is the one true religion" And then people get sucked into believing it and when someone points out the obvious lies then the believers get defensive and attack and when facts and common sense over rides the argument the believers throw out "You have to have Faith".

Just because you drank the Kool Aid that doesn't make the rest of us are morons as well..

If Christians do not care which set of Ten Commandments they use then why get so upset when atheists want them removed from courthouses? The Hypocrisy alone in Christians is just mind blowing. They way they pick and chose what is relevant and when it's relevancy matters. And it's not nonsense you just don't like the facts being pointed out..
I don't get upset when you want them removed from courthouses.  How have the people who got upset about it hurt you?   Was there case history at that courthouse to suggest that someone without idols was given preferential treatment?

People enjoy pointing out how inaccurate the bible is because simple minded people continue to make excuses and defend a flawed book and go way out of their way to persecute gays and other groups because this work of fiction called the Bible says something that they INTERPRETED to mean it's evil. Those same people always forget or excuses away the parts of the Bible that do not agree with their teachings or beliefs.
Scientists defend flawed books too.  They're called science books.  I don't make-pretend all of this rage at scientists about it.  Science is moral-neutral and asks how where religion embraces morality and asks why.   Stop trying to make religion do science's job just because you don't like someone's answer they give you about the Bible.   So you heard an answer from a Christian about the Bible that was just soooo stupid.  How big was the bruise from that?  Did you get stitches?

"The power to declare war, including the power of judging the causes of war, is fully and exclusively vested in the Legislature.  The Executive has no right, in any case, to decide the question" ~ James Madison
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"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians.  Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." ~ Mahatma Gandhi

#67    Mystic Crusader

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 03:44 PM

View PostAzTide, on 30 June 2012 - 05:08 PM, said:

Just because you drank the Kool Aid that doesn't make the rest of us are morons as well..

It's called Jesus Juice :unsure2:

Edited by HavocWing, 03 July 2012 - 03:47 PM.

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#68    AzTide

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 06:53 PM

View PostYamato, on 03 July 2012 - 02:47 AM, said:

If Christians do not care which set of Ten Commandments they use then why get so upset when atheists want them removed from courthouses? The Hypocrisy alone in Christians is just mind blowing. They way they pick and chose what is relevant and when it's relevancy matters. And it's not nonsense you just don't like the facts being pointed out..
I don't get upset when you want them removed from courthouses.  How have the people who got upset about it hurt you?   Was there case history at that courthouse to suggest that someone without idols was given preferential treatment?

People enjoy pointing out how inaccurate the bible is because simple minded people continue to make excuses and defend a flawed book and go way out of their way to persecute gays and other groups because this work of fiction called the Bible says something that they INTERPRETED to mean it's evil. Those same people always forget or excuses away the parts of the Bible that do not agree with their teachings or beliefs.
Scientists defend flawed books too.  They're called science books.  I don't make-pretend all of this rage at scientists about it.  Science is moral-neutral and asks how where religion embraces morality and asks why.   Stop trying to make religion do science's job just because you don't like someone's answer they give you about the Bible.   So you heard an answer from a Christian about the Bible that was just soooo stupid.  How big was the bruise from that?  Did you get stitches?


How many people have been killed because leaders believed in science and made it punishable by death not to believe anything other than science? How many wars have started over different scientific views?

Science evolves and changes based on proven facts. With religion when something is pointed out a religious person says " You have to have Faith"

That's a huge difference in your your logic!!!

And Christianity gave many bruises and many deaths over the years. And even today religious groups still lash out..

Sorry I upset your cult Yamato!!!

“He who controls the present controls the past”  George Orwell

"It is incumbent on every generation to pay its own debts as it goes. A principle which if acted on would save one-half the wars of the world."  Thomas Jefferson

"For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible." Stuart Chase

"A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have."  Thomas Jefferson

#69    AzTide

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 06:55 PM

View PostHavocWing, on 03 July 2012 - 03:44 PM, said:

It's called Jesus Juice :unsure2:

That's funny Havoc... LMAO

“He who controls the present controls the past”  George Orwell

"It is incumbent on every generation to pay its own debts as it goes. A principle which if acted on would save one-half the wars of the world."  Thomas Jefferson

"For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible." Stuart Chase

"A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have."  Thomas Jefferson

#70    Yamato

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 07:25 PM

View PostAzTide, on 03 July 2012 - 06:53 PM, said:

How many people have been killed because leaders believed in science and made it punishable by death not to believe anything other than science? How many wars have started over different scientific views?

Science evolves and changes based on proven facts. With religion when something is pointed out a religious person says " You have to have Faith"

That's a huge difference in your your logic!!!

And Christianity gave many bruises and many deaths over the years. And even today religious groups still lash out..

Sorry I upset your cult Yamato!!!

How many people have been killed because leaders believed in science
Millions.

and made it punishable by death not to believe anything other than science?
Science has unleashed the power of the atom to the detriment and benefit of us all.   If you don't believe in technology more than the Joneses, other leaders will come eat your lunch.

Science evolves and changes based on proven facts. With religion when something is pointed out a religious person says " You have to have Faith"
You do have to have faith.  It's an inner spiritual decision not yours to impose yourself upon.

And Christianity gave many bruises and many deaths over the years. And even today religious groups still lash out..
Christianity's been used to incite violence by many governments over the years and as a religion, it's not alone in that.  Those bruises and deaths were caused by governments and no way limited to religious governments.

"The power to declare war, including the power of judging the causes of war, is fully and exclusively vested in the Legislature.  The Executive has no right, in any case, to decide the question" ~ James Madison
"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein
"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela
"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians.  Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." ~ Mahatma Gandhi

#71    and then

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 09:21 PM

I find it interesting that these other gods/historical figures are portrayed identically to Jesus Christ, or the opposite if you prefer, but it isn't a point of fact that would cause a Christian to doubt their faith.  I accept the historical references as accurate.  The historicity of Christ's life is debatable for those who wish to have first person documentation. I have no problem with anyone who needs such proof.  I believe that evidences are given in the OT through the prophets that the word of God is real.  Daniel wrote of world civilizations which had not come to pass in his day.  Isaiah, Jeremiah and Ezekiel among others wrote of Christs first advent and it occurred, some say to the day it was forecast.  But of course if the REALITY of the Person of Christ can be denied then all the Bible can be denied since it is almost exclusively about Him.  Maybe that's the point.  Anyway - good, thought provoking post :tu:

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#72    AzTide

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 11:52 PM

View PostYamato, on 04 July 2012 - 07:25 PM, said:

How many people have been killed because leaders believed in science
Millions.

and made it punishable by death not to believe anything other than science?
Science has unleashed the power of the atom to the detriment and benefit of us all.   If you don't believe in technology more than the Joneses, other leaders will come eat your lunch.

Science evolves and changes based on proven facts. With religion when something is pointed out a religious person says " You have to have Faith"
You do have to have faith.  It's an inner spiritual decision not yours to impose yourself upon.

And Christianity gave many bruises and many deaths over the years. And even today religious groups still lash out..
Christianity's been used to incite violence by many governments over the years and as a religion, it's not alone in that.  Those bruises and deaths were caused by governments and no way limited to religious governments.


Science didn't kill people with atom bomb it was humans.. Using your logic guns kill people and McDonalds makes people fat.. It comes down to humans and the choices they make. It's just that plain and simple!!

And religions for thousands of years have used FEAR of God and his return to as you put it "Eat My Lunch" And I have yet to just point out Christianity as I believe all religions are guilty of terror threw out history...

When was the last time you saw a scientist running a country or large group like a religion? I can see daily around the world and threw out history what deadly effects religious leaders have done and still do in the name of their religion and God.

On the other hand the is no Nuclear or Biological Weapon that spoke to people and demanded they live or act a certain way. Science is just what is made of it.. And religion should be the same but the followers of religion walk around screaming about faith while persecuting those that disagree ..

Now if you want to use Monsanto or another company like that then I'll agree that science can be perverted and evil and run like religions have done for thousands of years..

“He who controls the present controls the past”  George Orwell

"It is incumbent on every generation to pay its own debts as it goes. A principle which if acted on would save one-half the wars of the world."  Thomas Jefferson

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"A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have."  Thomas Jefferson

#73    Yamato

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 12:13 AM

View PostAzTide, on 04 July 2012 - 11:52 PM, said:

Science didn't kill people with atom bomb it was humans.. Using your logic guns kill people and McDonalds makes people fat.. It comes down to humans and the choices they make. It's just that plain and simple!!

And religions for thousands of years have used FEAR of God and his return to as you put it "Eat My Lunch" And I have yet to just point out Christianity as I believe all religions are guilty of terror threw out history...

When was the last time you saw a scientist running a country or large group like a religion? I can see daily around the world and threw out history what deadly effects religious leaders have done and still do in the name of their religion and God.

On the other hand the is no Nuclear or Biological Weapon that spoke to people and demanded they live or act a certain way. Science is just what is made of it.. And religion should be the same but the followers of religion walk around screaming about faith while persecuting those that disagree ..

Now if you want to use Monsanto or another company like that then I'll agree that science can be perverted and evil and run like religions have done for thousands of years..
Science didn't kill people with atom bomb it was humans
God didn't kill people with atomic bombs, it was humans.  Looks like a dead end there.

When was the last time you saw a scientist running a country or large group
Morsi Egypt's new President has a doctorate in engineering.   Ahmadinejad is a civil engineer.   Obviously, science is moral-neutral thus something else is needed.

And religion should be the same but the followers of religion walk around screaming about faith while persecuting those that disagree ..
Please share these persecutions.

"The power to declare war, including the power of judging the causes of war, is fully and exclusively vested in the Legislature.  The Executive has no right, in any case, to decide the question" ~ James Madison
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"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela
"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians.  Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." ~ Mahatma Gandhi

#74    Tiggs

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 03:19 PM

View PostYamato, on 05 July 2012 - 12:13 AM, said:

God didn't kill people with atomic bombs, it was humans.  Looks like a dead end there.
God created a Universe where atomic bombs were possible.


#75    Yamato

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 04:10 PM

View PostTiggs, on 05 July 2012 - 03:19 PM, said:

God created a Universe where atomic bombs were possible.
God created a universe where everything is possible.

"The power to declare war, including the power of judging the causes of war, is fully and exclusively vested in the Legislature.  The Executive has no right, in any case, to decide the question" ~ James Madison
"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein
"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela
"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians.  Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." ~ Mahatma Gandhi





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