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Torah Writers Knew Heliocentric System

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Poll: Torah Writers Knew Heliocentric System (12 member(s) have cast votes)

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#16    AndreasGS

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 02:24 PM

As far I know the Torah is believed to be written around 500 BC. Parts of it, e.g. the Genesis may be even older.

If the Hitomi substance existed from the start, the so-called “Documentary Hypothesis” that says that the old Testament viz. the Torah in our case was just a patchwork of many texts by many authors, must be reviewed. At least there must have been some over all compiling and controlling authority who arranged it all together, while – and this is important - knowing about the secrets!

I do not think that the Torah contains any fortune telling astrology and neither does it support any. However, the Torah surely contains an astro­logically inspired symbolism. We need to rethink what is meant when the Bible tells us that astrology is not good.

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 02:34 PM

View PostAndreasGS, on 04 July 2012 - 02:24 PM, said:

As far I know the Torah is believed to be written around 500 BC. Parts of it, e.g. the Genesis may be even older.

If the Hitomi substance existed from the start, the so-called “Documentary Hypothesis” that says that the old Testament viz. the Torah in our case was just a patchwork of many texts by many authors, must be reviewed. At least there must have been some over all compiling and controlling authority who arranged it all together, while – and this is important - knowing about the secrets!

I do not think that the Torah contains any fortune telling astrology and neither does it support any. However, the Torah surely contains an astro­logically inspired symbolism. We need to rethink what is meant when the Bible tells us that astrology is not good.

The last editing of the Torah happened around 100 BC and from what we know there was some major editing going on.

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#18    AndreasGS

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 02:53 PM

Quote

The last editing of the Torah happened around 100 BC and from what we know there was some major editing going on.

This is again another thesis. Can you give me some clue? I took my information from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torah ... where now it is interestingly mentioned that the Torah might have been written in AD, as far I understood it right. Then there was maybe never an oral tradition? And the references to Jesus (and the conjunction in 7 BC) which I alluded here have been developed/inserted afterwards? Is this is a much more feasible explanation?

ps: I know that there are slight differences between the Leningrad Codex and the modern version, e.g. Koren that I use.

Edited by AndreasGS, 04 July 2012 - 03:35 PM.

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 03:12 PM

View PostAndreasGS, on 04 July 2012 - 02:53 PM, said:

This is again another thesis. Can you give me some clue? I took my information from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torah ... where now it is interestingly mentioned that the Torah might have been written in AD, as far I understood it right. Then there was maybe never an oral tradition? And the references to Jesus which I alluded here have been developed/inserted afterwards? Is this is a much more feasible explanation?

I don't know what Wikipedia contains as I don't find it very reliable, but any scholar will tell you that the Torah only became static after the diaspora caused by the Romans. The changeable texts was found in the Talmud after that.

The Pentateuch could be a little older than the rest, but given that the oldest version we have is the Samaritan Pentateuch (~500 BC) and that this one differs greatly from the "official" Pentateuch version of the Torah we can safely assume that there was a editing-rewriting of the holy texts after that.

Given that there is hardly any archeological evidence of Jewish activity before the 6th century we can safely assume that the "official" version (that the Samaritans took over the old and edited their version) as wishful thinking. It is most probably the other way around (see Finkelstein).

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#20    AndreasGS

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 03:30 PM

Quote

The Pentateuch could be a little older than the rest

What rest? Seems like you mix up the Torah with the Talmud? The Torah is the Pentateuch ... however I am not talking about the Talmud.

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 03:35 PM

View PostAndreasGS, on 04 July 2012 - 03:30 PM, said:

What rest? Seems like you mix up the Torah with the Talmud? The Torah is the Pentateuch ... however I am not talking about the Talmud.

No, I am not mixing them up, the Torah cannot be all the same age as it contains historic events that can be traced historically (not many but they exist), mostly with history concerning the time after the Babylonian bondage. Before that it is pretty nebulous and there where it wants to make "history" pretty inaccurate.

The Talmud started to exist in written form around 200 CE, the last entries date from 500 CE.

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#22    AndreasGS

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 03:40 PM

Do you believe my pictures thingy? Can you see an explanation how it has found its way into the Torah (respectively the Genesis) and when?

Edited by AndreasGS, 04 July 2012 - 03:41 PM.

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 03:55 PM

View PostAndreasGS, on 04 July 2012 - 03:40 PM, said:

Do you believe my pictures thingy? Can you see an explanation how it has found its way into the Torah (respectively the Genesis) and when?

There is very little I "believe", I prefer to go by evidence.

Now, it would be wrong to assume that the authors/editors of the Torah were just Bible thumpers and world end prophets. That is an image we have gotten from the present version of the priesthood (both Christian and Jewish). Among the high priests there were several very erudite people and even some we could call scientists.

I doubt that any of them would have had any remorse to change any part of the Torah they found factually wrong, especially not in the period when the Torah was still being created, that is before the 1st Christian century. For a Jew the only thing that was unchangeable in the book was the ten commandments as they were dictated by the Lord, the rest could be discussed about.

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#24    AndreasGS

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 04:09 PM

Ok, those discussions flow into the Talmud? I also think that the high priests were a kind of scientist.

Is my heliocentric conjunction picture backed up with enough evidence for you?

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 04:18 PM

View PostAndreasGS, on 04 July 2012 - 04:09 PM, said:

Ok, those discussions flow into the Talmud? I also think that the high priests were a kind of scientist.

Is my heliocentric conjunction picture backed up with enough evidence for you?

As soon as you bring anything that shows when that part was included in the Genesis, and that this was before Aristarchus it would be good enough for me to admit to their authorship, if not I will keep on assuming that at some time after 300 BC some high priest read Aristarchus and made corresponding changes to the scripture. But yes, whoever wrote that must have known what he was writing, regardless of the source.

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#26    Paracelse

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 04:42 PM

View PostAndreasGS, on 04 July 2012 - 01:38 PM, said:

So maybe the heliocentric system published by Copernicus was influenced or already 'discovered' by that pope?

If those "Hitomi"-pictures were in the Torah from the start, I guess the church knew about them. Or not? Maybe if you needed to hide something very important from your foe, why not under his own pillow, where he would never expect it?
Actually it would have been re-discovered by the Arabic teachers of that pope... sorry if I didn't make myself clear.

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#27    DieChecker

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 05:01 PM

View PostAndreasGS, on 03 July 2012 - 08:33 PM, said:

Hello. My name is Andreas. I am from Germany and I came here to discuss my research.


The Discovery of the Torakosmos

In Hebrew all letters are also a number, so that one can obtain the value of a word by adding these numbers.

Originally I wanted to analyze the distributions of such values in the Hebrew biblical book of Genesis and found therefore a computer-based graphical method to display them. That method should provide round eye-shaped views through using a polar coordinate system and so I named the method “Hitomi” which is Japanese for the pupil of the eye.

The Hitomi-method worked because I quickly realized that by this method certain numbers form real pictures: Planetary positions and cycles, star constellations, astronomical and geometric connections, and mystical symbols.
Sounds like a worth while project. Who knows what messages might turn up in a letter to numbers code. Most of these codes I have dismissed in the past, as they usually show a lack of detail or are unique artifacts in an otherwise sea of gibberish. If you use a code on any book a significant length, you're probably likely to find something that looks like a bit of clear message. But many times it is actually random, or coincidence.

View PostAndreasGS, on 04 July 2012 - 04:20 AM, said:

Apparently the picture formed from the key number 231 seemed like a compass to me. But with a compass one can make circles, and so I did: Starting from the angular point of the pretended compass I drew circles through the other dots in that picture and also one through its center. I immediately realized that these circles (red) should be planetary orbits, and the angular point of the compass should be the Sun. Well, the orbits do not relate to each other like in reality, but they do relate in the measure of the golden ratio. This is remarkable though.


Posted Image


By assuming that the dot in the center of the picture should be the Earth we can count that the two outermost orbits must be those of Jupiter and Saturn. And obviously there these two planets are in a conjunction when spotted from Earth.
Did you research any of the alignments of your planets if you used these points as only the inner planets? So that your Jupiter and Saturn are actually Mars and Earth. That would put the center at Venus, but if they were trying to show a conjunction, and they knew about rotation around the Sun, there would be no real reason to establish Earth as the center. Then Venus might have been the "bright star".

View PostAndreasGS, on 04 July 2012 - 02:24 PM, said:

As far I know the Torah is believed to be written around 500 BC. Parts of it, e.g. the Genesis may be even older.

Seems to me that much of the Torah was borrowed from neighboring cultures and mythology. So to insert this symbols into the mix would have required a very strong editing and re-writiing of the original stories, which is possible, but not likely, in my opinion.

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#28    AndreasGS

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 05:32 PM

Quote

Sounds like a worth while project.

Thanks. :D

Quote

As soon as you bring anything that shows when that part was included in the Genesis, and that this was before Aristarchus it would be good enough for me to admit to their authorship, if not I will keep on assuming that at some time after 300 BC some high priest read Aristarchus and made corresponding changes to the scripture. But yes, whoever wrote that must have known what he was writing, regardless of the source.

I cannot prove that. Maybe I should concentrate on the pictures themselves rather than asking who made them. Looks like we agree that the pictures are really there. :D

Quote

Actually it would have been re-discovered by the Arabic teachers of that pope

Ok.

Quote

Did you research any of the alignments of your planets if you used these points as only the inner planets? So that your Jupiter and Saturn are actually Mars and Earth. That would put the center at Venus, but if they were trying to show a conjunction, and they knew about rotation around the Sun, there would be no real reason to establish Earth as the center.

No, I did not. The center would be Mercury, not Venus. Earth is in the center of the eye because the observer is there. Actually the picture shows a hybrid system with heliocentric and geocentric features. The angles relate to the zodiac and this is only reasonable with the earth in the center. We cannot assume that the people who encoded this were able to calcualte the angles as seen from venus. the picture can be considered as a kind of a horoscope.

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#29    Earl.Of.Trumps

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 12:50 AM

View PostAndreasGS, on 03 July 2012 - 08:33 PM, said:

Hello. My name is Andreas. I am from Germany and I came here to discuss my research.


The Discovery of the Torakosmos

In Hebrew all letters are also a number, so that one can obtain the value of a word by adding these numbers.

Originally I wanted to analyze the distributions of such values in the Hebrew biblical book of Genesis and found therefore a computer-based graphical method to display them. That method should provide round eye-shaped views through using a polar coordinate system and so I named the method “Hitomi” which is Japanese for the pupil of the eye.

The Hitomi-method worked because I quickly realized that by this method certain numbers form real pictures: Planetary positions and cycles, star constellations, astronomical and geometric connections, and mystical symbols.

Among these things I found the depiction of a heliocentric system, in which the heavenly bodies Jupiter, Saturn and Sun are positioned like they were at the Jupiter-Saturn conjunction on September 30th in the year 7 BC. In addition there is also a picture of the Big Dipper as it stood on that day at 20:30 o'clock over Bethlehem.

I am new to this forum and am very unsure whether I should write more. Do you think this research is just a variant of some "bible-code nonsense" or are you interested to learn more?

all the best,
Andreas


I find this endeavor very interesting.

I could never say whether or not there is anything to it, but I will say that Isaac Newton, inventor of calculus and one of the great phyicists of the eons, spent more time looking for codes in the bible than he did anything else.

not sure Newton ever found anything of any note but maybe his instincts were right. don't know.

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#30    AndreasGS

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 11:27 PM

How do you know Newton puzzled with the Bible?

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