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Revenue Problem or Spending Problem?


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#31    karmakazi

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 05:44 PM

View PostClyde the Glyde, on 11 July 2012 - 03:51 PM, said:

It's a spending problem due to the ammount of waste, fraud, and abuse.  If government watched its books like an effeciently run company would, there wouldn't be a problem.

For the government, its just too easy to spend other people's money.


You're right... all these companies are putting programs into place based on Toyota's manufacturing process, the government should too!

Let's 5S that *****!

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#32    Tiggs

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 10:03 PM

View PostYamato, on 11 July 2012 - 04:04 AM, said:

The professor in the OP vid is an economist.  
If you want to play the argument from authority game, I'll raise you a Nobel-Prize winning economist, Paul Krugman, who thinks otherwise.


#33    DieChecker

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 10:20 PM

View Postquestionmark, on 11 July 2012 - 02:05 PM, said:

Naturally you can cut it, but that would automatically crash the economies of states like Arizona and Florida where the economy would shrink severely.

The worst thing you can do during recession times is cut spending, especially then when there is a small group who gets an unwarranted tax break and hundreds of loopholes.
According to many, the worst thing you can do at any time is cut spending. While it is true that when the government spends during recession it helps the economy, then that same government needs to save money and cut back spending in a strong economy. Which generally we do not see.

Anyway, I thought Obama and his boys declare the Great Recession over in 2009? And then again in 2010. And then they simply called it a Recovery and left it at that.

If we need to maintain or increase Federal spending doesn't that indicate that we are actually in the Recession still?

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#34    Varelse

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 10:41 PM

Here's a good article that takes in points of view from all sides. After reading the whole article, one thing seems apparent. Both camps are using a little creative math.

http://www.politifac...bamas-spending/

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#35    Yamato

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 03:50 AM

View PostTiggs, on 11 July 2012 - 10:03 PM, said:

If you want to play the argument from authority game, I'll raise you a Nobel-Prize winning economist, Paul Krugman, who thinks otherwise.
Okay, but you'd need something relevant to the discussion, or start a new one.  Wasn't it odd that someone was even asking for authority when it was already in my video?  Noticing that and answering a question isn't wanting to play appeal to authority games.

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#36    ranrod

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 04:25 AM

View PostYamato, on 12 July 2012 - 03:50 AM, said:

Okay, but you'd need something relevant to the discussion, or start a new one.  Wasn't it odd that someone was even asking for authority when it was already in my video?  Noticing that and answering a question isn't wanting to play appeal to authority games.
No. You started the thread with an argument of authority.  I was asking if anyone here personally had an economics background - or are we all supposed to link youtube videos of the people who represent our point of view?


#37    Yamato

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 04:40 AM

View Postranrod, on 12 July 2012 - 04:25 AM, said:

No. You started the thread with an argument of authority.  I was asking if anyone here personally had an economics background - or are we all supposed to link youtube videos of the people who represent our point of view?
Okay, what's the argument of authority?   I was hoping that the facts would represent our point of view.   What part of the video are you wanting to argue?   And yes, bring in whatever economists you want, that's what this thread is all about.   Bring Krugman and Greenspan and Bernanke all three.   Bring the ghost of Maynard.   Just keep it in the context of the video's content, please.

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#38    Tiggs

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 06:30 PM

View PostYamato, on 12 July 2012 - 04:40 AM, said:

Okay, what's the argument of authority?   I was hoping that the facts would represent our point of view.   What part of the video are you wanting to argue?   And yes, bring in whatever economists you want, that's what this thread is all about.   Bring Krugman and Greenspan and Bernanke all three.   Bring the ghost of Maynard.   Just keep it in the context of the video's content, please.

Allrighty, then

Here's Krugman, noting that there's a third variable in play with respect to Government Revenues:

Economic growth.

Apparently, some Economists think that Economic growth is important over the long term. Who'd have guessed?

Obviously not the economist in your video, who's hoping you don't notice that wages have outpaced inflation over the period in question, and that the percentage of taxation income per capita has massively declined.

Or let me put it another way:


Tax Rates are at historic lows.


Some Republicans are aware that the Republican party has a stated political goal of manufacturing economic crisis in order to shrink the size of Federal government - a goal referred to as "Starving the Beast", which is achieved by making unsustainable Tax Cuts in order to create a Federal budgetary crisis.

That's why Grover Norquist's pledge to never raise taxes is sacrosanct to Republican candidates.

However - the majority of Republican supporters on the ground didn't get that particular memo. They genuinely believe that voting Republican will fix the American economy.

There's absolutely no chance of that happening.

Edited by Tiggs, 12 July 2012 - 06:44 PM.


#39    Bama13

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 07:03 PM

View PostTiggs, on 12 July 2012 - 06:30 PM, said:

Allrighty, then

Here's Krugman, noting that there's a third variable in play with respect to Government Revenues:

Economic growth.

Apparently, some Economists think that Economic growth is important over the long term. Who'd have guessed?

Obviously not the economist in your video, who's hoping you don't notice that wages have outpaced inflation over the period in question, and that the percentage of taxation income per capita has massively declined.

Or let me put it another way:


Tax Rates are at historic lows.


Some Republicans are aware that the Republican party has a stated political goal of manufacturing economic crisis in order to shrink the size of Federal government - a goal referred to as "Starving the Beast", which is achieved by making unsustainable Tax Cuts in order to create a Federal budgetary crisis.

That's why Grover Norquist's pledge to never raise taxes is sacrosanct to Republican candidates.

However - the majority of Republican supporters on the ground didn't get that particular memo. They genuinely believe that voting Republican will fix the American economy.

There's absolutely no chance of that happening.

Everyone should know that the answer for too much debt is more debt. It is known.

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#40    questionmark

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 07:22 PM

View PostBama13, on 12 July 2012 - 07:03 PM, said:

Everyone should know that the answer for too much debt is more debt. It is known.

No, that is the logical next step once the reputation has gone to hell.

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#41    Yamato

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 07:47 PM

View PostTiggs, on 12 July 2012 - 06:30 PM, said:

Allrighty, then

Here's Krugman, noting that there's a third variable in play with respect to Government Revenues:

Economic growth.

Apparently, some Economists think that Economic growth is important over the long term. Who'd have guessed?

Obviously not the economist in your video, who's hoping you don't notice that wages have outpaced inflation over the period in question, and that the percentage of taxation income per capita has massively declined.

Or let me put it another way:


Tax Rates are at historic lows.


Some Republicans are aware that the Republican party has a stated political goal of manufacturing economic crisis in order to shrink the size of Federal government - a goal referred to as "Starving the Beast", which is achieved by making unsustainable Tax Cuts in order to create a Federal budgetary crisis.

That's why Grover Norquist's pledge to never raise taxes is sacrosanct to Republican candidates.

However - the majority of Republican supporters on the ground didn't get that particular memo. They genuinely believe that voting Republican will fix the American economy.

There's absolutely no chance of that happening.
Republican, republican republican, huh?  Wow.  There is no partisanship in my video.   You've introduced that yourself.   Are you going to appeal to partisan economists now?  I hope not because that cheap game of partisan debate goes both ways and I could care less for either one of them since neither major party in this country is a bastion of economic enlightenment by a long shot.   I certainly don't tow the republican line on this just like I don't tow the republican line on anything.   Your partisan conspiracy pretending to be economics aside, you can share in my support for a more graduated scale taxing people making over a million dollars a year much higher than they are today.

The economist in my video wasn't complaining that wages didn't keep up with inflation.  He was adjusting revenue for inflation, not a bad idea if you want to understand economic changes accurately through time.  Too much government spending can exist in an economy of sufficient wages or sufficient growth.   Changing the subject to appear like you're denying the problem wasn't a very good idea here.  I think Bama's reply speaks well enough for that.

We want real, sustainable growth made possible by the competitive forces in the free marketplace, not by government sitting on a big pile of someone else's money and recklessly spending it with some bureaucrats' great ideas about what the numbers ought to be.  Being mindless enough to trust the government, we wind up with horrifying policy like Iraq wars, bombing countries all across the Middle East without a war declaration, and ballooning health care, housing, food, energy, and education costs caused by government groping.  Prices should work exactly like they do whenever government doesn't have its dirty tentacles on the switch.  This includes periods of real deflation, real recession, real consequences and real responsibility.  Not Bernanke in Wonderland .

"The power to declare war, including the power of judging the causes of war, is fully and exclusively vested in the Legislature.  The Executive has no right, in any case, to decide the question" ~ James Madison
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#42    Tiggs

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 10:38 PM

View PostYamato, on 12 July 2012 - 07:47 PM, said:

Republican, republican republican, huh?  Wow.  There is no partisanship in my video.   You've introduced that yourself.

"Washington does not have a revenue problem. Washington has a spending problem." - John Boehner
"Washington does not have a revenue problem. It's got a spending problem." - Eric Cantor
"We don't have a revenue problem, we all know we have a spending problem." - Orrin Hatch
"Washington has a spending problem, not a revenue problem." - Paul Ryan

So - Republican, republican, republican, republican, actually. Would you like me to find you some more?


Quote

Are you going to appeal to partisan economists now?  I hope not because that cheap game of partisan debate goes both ways and I could care less for either one of them since neither major party in this country is a bastion of economic enlightenment by a long shot.  

You invited us to bring Krugman to the debate. So I did.


Quote

I certainly don't tow the republican line on this just like I don't tow the republican line on anything.   Your partisan conspiracy pretending to be economics aside, you can share in my support for a more graduated scale taxing people making over a million dollars a year much higher than they are today.

Stated Republican policy is not a partisan conspiracy.


Quote

The economist in my video wasn't complaining that wages didn't keep up with inflation.  He was adjusting revenue for inflation, not a bad idea if you want to understand economic changes accurately through time.  Too much government spending can exist in an economy of sufficient wages or sufficient growth.   Changing the subject to appear like you're denying the problem wasn't a very good idea here.  I think Bama's reply speaks well enough for that.

A Nobel-prize winning economist stating the three principles of why Government spending naturally rises over time is hardly "changing the subject".


Quote

We want real, sustainable growth made possible by the competitive forces in the free marketplace, not by government sitting on a big pile of someone else's money and recklessly spending it with some bureaucrats' great ideas about what the numbers ought to be. Being mindless enough to trust the government, we wind up with horrifying policy like Iraq wars, bombing countries all across the Middle East without a war declaration, and ballooning health care, housing, food, energy, and education costs caused by government groping.  Prices should work exactly like they do whenever government doesn't have its dirty tentacles on the switch.  This includes periods of real deflation, real recession, real consequences and real responsibility.  Not Bernanke in Wonderland .

The only thing that a free marketplace makes possible is a race to the bottom for morals and ethics. As evidenced by the recent near-collapse of the international banking system.


#43    Tiggs

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 10:52 PM

View PostBama13, on 12 July 2012 - 07:03 PM, said:

Everyone should know that the answer for too much debt is more debt. It is known.

The answer for too much debt is to earn more money.


#44    Yamato

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 03:51 AM

View PostTiggs, on 12 July 2012 - 10:38 PM, said:

"Washington does not have a revenue problem. Washington has a spending problem." - John Boehner
"Washington does not have a revenue problem. It's got a spending problem." - Eric Cantor
"We don't have a revenue problem, we all know we have a spending problem." - Orrin Hatch
"Washington has a spending problem, not a revenue problem." - Paul Ryan

So - Republican, republican, republican, republican, actually. Would you like me to find you some more?




You invited us to bring Krugman to the debate. So I did.




Stated Republican policy is not a partisan conspiracy.




A Nobel-prize winning economist stating the three principles of why Government spending naturally rises over time is hardly "changing the subject".




The only thing that a free marketplace makes possible is a race to the bottom for morals and ethics. As evidenced by the recent near-collapse of the international banking system.
Partisan politics!   Maybe you missed it but Barack Obama should have raised taxes three years ago and didn't while you're throwing your rhetorical dirt around at republicans!

Republican party bureaucratic rhetoric is no accurate measuring instrument we can rely upon to understand anything correctly.   It's politics and sorry, but it's not beholden to the facts.  Even if the rhetoric is correct, we still need a means to figure out whether it's correct or not, Democrat or Republican.   And that was the purpose of this thread.   To explain to you in a non-partisan way why the talking point is correct, by using economic facts, not by using the Democrat campaign rhetoric echoing Krugman that you might prefer, but as it turns out, using an economist you don't.

And now you're bringing me a steaming iron cauldron of republican party ghouls pining for votes with rhetorical speeches about how high our taxes are, and you think this speaks either to me or to my video, how?   Were you under the false impression that everything a republican bureaucrat says is factually incorrect because it's rhetorically impossible?  You've injected partisan politics into a perfectly good video and discussion that was free of it until now.   Maybe that's not changing the subject so much as it's adding politics but either way it was unnecessary.  

Using Krugman to actually contest something presented in the video would have been appropriate.

Nobel prize?  Barack Obama won the Nobel Peace Prize after he already started bombing some of the countries he's out there bombing.  Al Gore won it for giving a Powerpoint presentation.  The  disgraced Nobel Prize is better utilized in the world by avoiding anyone who wins it.

Government spending shouldn't increase per capita inflation adjusted through time because the more money government spends the less freedom people have.   Concede to all historical evidence, the more money government makes, its spending always increases to that revenue amount.  You actually want markets to be made by suit wearing idiots in their marble halls controlling which way the cards fall by mandate instead of by free market choice?   Are you kidding?   You actually take the words of these suit-wearing money spenders seriously enough that you had to bring them into my thread, during a Presidential election season of all times.   Thanks for the reminder that there's always a politician who wants to lower my taxes during an election season.  And gravity points down.

Apparently, some Economists think that Economic growth is important over the long term
We've had enough Krugman over the long term already, and the return on our investment has been pathetic, over the long term especially. Here we are, heading into the next leg of this government guaranteed depression with zero percent interest rates at our sails, and you're just as stalwart a Krugman Keynesian as you were eight years ago?   Astonishing!   The next spasm in the economy will be acute and painful enough to wake even you up.   The economy is global now and the market will always win in the end no matter how hard we cry or how much of the kids' money we spend.  The big picture decision at this time should be whether we want to make a financial mess kicking and squealing and tearing the nation's bed, or do we want to embrace the competition and deflationary power of the free market and learn how to earn our money, learn how to pay our bills, learn how to save our money again and start to build real credit that isn't propped up on financial weapons of mass destruction hiding behind government guarantees.   We've had enough of your Keynesian poison and we want much less of it.  Especially the under-40 crowd.   Immoral Keynesians like you are eating the youth's lunch and they should be mad as hell about it.   They will have their own bills, their own tragedies, their own battles to fight.   They don't need to pay for yours too, but wow, how selfish of you to offer.

The only thing that a free marketplace makes possible is a race to the bottom for morals and ethics
That is deranged Keynesian brainwash.  You couldn't be further from the truth.  Where do you get this information?

The free market pays a horrible price when government gets its nose out of the way and stops rewarding people for failure by socializing their losses and handing me the damn bill.   Corporations are paying the price every day in the market.  If they're immoral or unethical there is a price to pay for being so.   The federal government gets away with mass murder and you want to put your blind faith, your atheistic blind denial of the problems, into that?   Run to your government then and tell me how wonderful my finances would be if I could borrow a million dollars a month.  My GDP and long term growth prospects would be outstanding if I could borrow a million a month for the rest of my life.  Leaving the bill to you and yours after I die will be my pleasure.   Are you kidding me?   How dare anyone in this day and age mortgage the future of this country and hand the bill to their kids!   If this is the kind of morality one can expect from a soulless heathen beholden to government, we need God more than I thought.

What makes you think you're more than three times as important as any American who lived in the 1950s?  Was protecting the US from the Soviet Union and the bomb less than 1/3 as important as propagating the self-inflicted wounds we're suffering from today? That's quite a sense of entitlement you've got there if these questions don't give you pause.

Our economy is being run by a ship of fools and John Boehner and Barack Obama are only two of them.  You want to load the boat and let half the Fools steer it indefinitely for X many more years of these "results".  I want to board the vessel and commandeer it and return the markets to the honest competition and creditworthiness that they deserve.

It's a fact that we have a spending problem.  Partisan adventures during a campaign season that cherry pick a fact like this to play political football with it, notwithstanding.

Edited by Yamato, 13 July 2012 - 04:32 AM.

"The power to declare war, including the power of judging the causes of war, is fully and exclusively vested in the Legislature.  The Executive has no right, in any case, to decide the question" ~ James Madison
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"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela
"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians.  Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." ~ Mahatma Gandhi

#45    DieChecker

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 06:16 AM

View PostTiggs, on 12 July 2012 - 06:30 PM, said:

However - the majority of Republican supporters on the ground didn't get that particular memo. They genuinely believe that voting Republican will fix the American economy.
And don't Democrat supporters on the ground, who are no less educated, believe that voting Democrat will do the same? The problems and ignorance are on both sides... surely you agree with that?

View PostTiggs, on 12 July 2012 - 10:38 PM, said:

You invited us to bring Krugman to the debate. So I did.
What does Krugman say of Obama's budgets and the current levels of Debt and Deficit in the US?

I don't think you will find any remarks by him on the current Federal status, because he is renouned as only publishing negative comments about Republicans, even when his previous published comments clearly put him against a particular Democrat platform, he will not attack a Democrat.

In my opinion, though he has good points, this puts him into a "Fanatic" status, where some of what he says in genius, but some is pure idiot speak.

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