3292 replies to this topic

[Babe Ruth]

RaptorBites, on 06 December 2012 - 09:40 PM, said:

Funny that you mention Warren Stutt.  Since it was him who released the decompressor program for the FDR data.

http://journalof911s...ltimeter_92.pdf

Yes, I've read that one before Raptor, and understand it to be sort of a decoding error that was exposed by Stutt and others.

Unless I misunderstood your earlier post, you claimed that Stutt has also worked with OTHER Flight Data Recorders from OTHER aircraft, and found that an unassigned FDR is a common thing.

Did I misunderstand you?  Can you offer any information regarding the other FDRs examined by Stutt?

With his computer science degree, does he work with FDR in his employment?

Heck, we're friends, so I will go ahead and answer your question about my interpretation of Wally Miller's remarks, if I may.

Hate to have to repeat again, but I understand how it works....

I saw video of Wally's remarks that first day, and I have read transcripts of his comments too.

Yes, I read, speak, write and understand the English language.  And the body language on the video was most helpful.

I also saw video of the comments of Wally's assistants that were with him that day.  Yeah, somehow they got them on TV.  Go figure.

So I did not misinterpret Wally's remarks--they were perfectly straightforward.  His role as coroner was not needed because there was nothing there, including blood, to suggest that a passenger-carrying 757 had crashed in that field.  Just as the overhead videos showed, and just as the news people described.

Edited by Babe Ruth, 07 December 2012 - 02:27 PM.

[-M7]

Perhaps that particular part of the Pentagon was a target for what was there...What was going on at that part of the building at that time?

Just food for thought.

[Kludge808]

Wally's role as coroner ended because there were no bodies there.  His role as Medical Examiner picked up instead which he also stated.  Selective hearing/reading at it's finest there, folks.

This is typical of the sort of cherry picking CTists & Truthers do and why they continue to spout their garbage.  Put reality in front of them and they fall back on "Da ebil gummint lies!" for lack of anything else.  Show them where their "truth" fails and they add another layer to the conspiracy - more people, more organizations ... more anything to cover their tracks and continue the conspiracy.

I like conspiracy theories.  I really do.  They're fantastic entertainment especially when several about the same subject collide.  Just the Pentagon alone has an airplane dressed to look like AAL77 but flying under remote control (from the C-130 apparently) to 77 but also under remote control to Tomahawk cruise missiles to a Russian anti-shipping missile to planted explosives to ... hmmm, what have I missed?  I'm sure there were others.  Freaking CTists & Truthers can't even agree on what blew up at the Pentagon yet they expect everyone to believe only they know the Real Truth.  Shanksville has its own maze of amazing contradictions which are vaguely reminiscent of the ones at the Pentagon.  Again, the only thing they agree on is "Da Ebil Gummint Lies!"

Another part I love is the whole "free thinker" schtick.  To qualify as a CTist Free Thinker, all one has to do is say, "Da Ebil Gummint Lies!" then follow blindly along on the assorted CT & Truther sites.  "Free thinking" means not thinking for themselves but simply accepting that their "experts" are infallible and, in fact, are gods to whom they must bear allegiance and total fealty.  To do otherwise gets them branded as infidels and makes them subject to drive-by shunnings and horrors too horrible to mention.  Even moving to another CTist camp causes them to be subject to being put to The Question.  The Spanish Inquisition was a walk in the park by comparison.  Yet there they are, believing that they are "free thinkers" all the while.

The Official Version of what happened on 11 September, 2001, has a number of advantages.  First, it answers all of the evidence available.  Second, it stands on its own merit without having to add more layers along the line when challenged.  Third, it is backed by the greatest number of organizations and individuals who investigated the events of that day.  Expanding on that last, these were people & organizations who were actually there "boots on the ground" as soon as they could be and who worked individually & collectively to piece together what happened as professionals,  Is it perfect?  No one associated with it or who has actually read and researched it would say that it is.  But it does have the three advantages listed over any CT going.  Probably more but that's adequate for now.

Oh, and it didn't require cherry picking witness statements but rather used convergence of testimony (We all know what this is, right?) to help determine what happened.  So, for example, with over a hundred statements that place the airplane South of the Citgo and maybe a dozen at best that put it North of the Citgo, where do you think that convergence goes?  Yep, South of the Citgo and all the arm waving and finger pointing and yelling, "Liar, liar, pants on fire!" doesn't change that.  Yet that is precisely what CTists & Truthers do.  Amazing, isn't it.  [Phrase deleted so as not to get the Evil Eye from my beloved DotNM] but amazing.

Did I blindly accept it at face value?  Hell, no!  Parts of it puzzled me and none of my own background in aviation and engineering could accept - or at least understand - them.  So I asked questions of people with more experience and knowledge to help fill in those gaps.  Admittedly, some of the questions were pretty dumb, on reflection, but I couldn't see the answers that were in front of me so having another perspective helped a lot.  The end result was that, while I still have a couple questions, the vast majority of the Official Version made sense.  At the same time, absolutely none of the CTs made sense at all once I had my answers although initially several of the possibilities presented couldn't be rejected out of hand.  And, yes, that means I reviewed the assorted CTs as well.  The more I reviewed them in light of what I learned on my own, the less sense they made.

Hmmm ... so who's the free thinker again?

[Babe Ruth]

-M7, on 08 December 2012 - 05:50 AM, said:

Perhaps that particular part of the Pentagon was a target for what was there...What was going on at that part of the building at that time?

Just food for thought.

You have hit the nail on the head.  That part of the Pentagon was targeted because of an investigation by congressional auditors and the Office of Naval Investigation regarding financial irregularities spanning back some number of years.

In the best demonstration of a stonewalling witness I have ever seen, Rumsfeld was deposed on that subject matter just the day before by Cynthia McKinney's committee.

For rocking the boat too much, McKinney was punished by the system and ended up leaving congress.

Dick Eastman and Tom Flocco and associates also cover this in their recent analysis regarding certain covert US Securities.

[Babe Ruth]

Kludge808, on 08 December 2012 - 01:39 PM, said:

Wally's role as coroner ended because there were no bodies there.  His role as Medical Examiner picked up instead which he also stated.  Selective hearing/reading at it's finest there, folks.

This is typical of the sort of cherry picking CTists & Truthers do and why they continue to spout their garbage.  Put reality in front of them and they fall back on "Da ebil gummint lies!" for lack of anything else.  Show them where their "truth" fails and they add another layer to the conspiracy - more people, more organizations ... more anything to cover their tracks and continue the conspiracy.

I like conspiracy theories.  I really do.  They're fantastic entertainment especially when several about the same subject collide.  Just the Pentagon alone has an airplane dressed to look like AAL77 but flying under remote control (from the C-130 apparently) to 77 but also under remote control to Tomahawk cruise missiles to a Russian anti-shipping missile to planted explosives to ... hmmm, what have I missed?  I'm sure there were others.  Freaking CTists & Truthers can't even agree on what blew up at the Pentagon yet they expect everyone to believe only they know the Real Truth.  Shanksville has its own maze of amazing contradictions which are vaguely reminiscent of the ones at the Pentagon.  Again, the only thing they agree on is "Da Ebil Gummint Lies!"

Another part I love is the whole "free thinker" schtick.  To qualify as a CTist Free Thinker, all one has to do is say, "Da Ebil Gummint Lies!" then follow blindly along on the assorted CT & Truther sites.  "Free thinking" means not thinking for themselves but simply accepting that their "experts" are infallible and, in fact, are gods to whom they must bear allegiance and total fealty.  To do otherwise gets them branded as infidels and makes them subject to drive-by shunnings and horrors too horrible to mention.  Even moving to another CTist camp causes them to be subject to being put to The Question.  The Spanish Inquisition was a walk in the park by comparison.  Yet there they are, believing that they are "free thinkers" all the while.

The Official Version of what happened on 11 September, 2001, has a number of advantages.  First, it answers all of the evidence available.  Second, it stands on its own merit without having to add more layers along the line when challenged.  Third, it is backed by the greatest number of organizations and individuals who investigated the events of that day.  Expanding on that last, these were people & organizations who were actually there "boots on the ground" as soon as they could be and who worked individually & collectively to piece together what happened as professionals,  Is it perfect?  No one associated with it or who has actually read and researched it would say that it is.  But it does have the three advantages listed over any CT going.  Probably more but that's adequate for now.

Oh, and it didn't require cherry picking witness statements but rather used convergence of testimony (We all know what this is, right?) to help determine what happened.  So, for example, with over a hundred statements that place the airplane South of the Citgo and maybe a dozen at best that put it North of the Citgo, where do you think that convergence goes?  Yep, South of the Citgo and all the arm waving and finger pointing and yelling, "Liar, liar, pants on fire!" doesn't change that.  Yet that is precisely what CTists & Truthers do.  Amazing, isn't it.  [Phrase deleted so as not to get the Evil Eye from my beloved DotNM] but amazing.

Did I blindly accept it at face value?  Hell, no!  Parts of it puzzled me and none of my own background in aviation and engineering could accept - or at least understand - them.  So I asked questions of people with more experience and knowledge to help fill in those gaps.  Admittedly, some of the questions were pretty dumb, on reflection, but I couldn't see the answers that were in front of me so having another perspective helped a lot.  The end result was that, while I still have a couple questions, the vast majority of the Official Version made sense.  At the same time, absolutely none of the CTs made sense at all once I had my answers although initially several of the possibilities presented couldn't be rejected out of hand.  And, yes, that means I reviewed the assorted CTs as well.  The more I reviewed them in light of what I learned on my own, the less sense they made.

Hmmm ... so who's the free thinker again?

You're a free thinker like Dubya was a free thinker.

[Kludge808]

Babe Ruth, on 08 December 2012 - 03:26 PM, said:

You're a free thinker like Dubya was a free thinker.

Coming from you, I take that as a compliment.  Thank you.

[Babe Ruth]

You're welcome.

Have you studied the ACARS controversy yourself?

[RaptorBites]

Kludge808, on 08 December 2012 - 01:39 PM, said:

Wally's role as coroner ended because there were no bodies there.  His role as Medical Examiner picked up instead which he also stated.  Selective hearing/reading at it's finest there, folks.

Well stated.  Many CT's would have you believe that the "no bodies" quote would implicate the notion that there was no sign of an airliner crashing in that field.

However, they would also disregard his findings of body parts at the crash site.

You got it right Kludge, selective hearing/reading.

[Kludge808]

Babe Ruth, on 08 December 2012 - 07:20 PM, said:

Have you studied the ACARS controversy yourself?

Yes and for the most part I agree with the Official Version.  But note, I said "for the most part."  Some parts I'm not sure about so I'm sitting out the current discussion so I can get a better understanding of both sides of the controversy.

[Kludge808]

RaptorBites, on 09 December 2012 - 12:16 AM, said:

Well stated.  Many CT's would have you believe that the "no bodies" quote would implicate the notion that there was no sign of an airliner crashing in that field.

However, they would also disregard his findings of body parts at the crash site.

You got it right Kludge, selective hearing/reading.

Wally & Co were kept busy for the next several years identifying remains there as others were at the other three sites.  I don't believe they got near enough credit for the work they had to do.  They were working long after everyone went home and 9/11 wasn't anywhere in the news which was never really publicly recognized.

[skyeagle409]

Babe Ruth, on 07 December 2012 - 02:21 PM, said:

Yes, I've read that one before Raptor, and understand it to be sort of a decoding error that was exposed by Stutt and others.

Ok! We know 9/11 conspiracist were wrong on ACARS.

Quote

Unless I misunderstood your earlier post, you claimed that Stutt has also worked with OTHER Flight Data Recorders from OTHER aircraft, and found that an unassigned FDR is a common thing.

That has been explained to you time and again, and explained in detail, and I am very sure you knew the facts surrounding the FDR as they were presented to you, and I just got back from a visit with Boeing in Washington.

Quote

I saw video of Wally's remarks that first day, and I have read transcripts of his comments too.

I am very sure you saw the video of Wally Miller as he slams 9/11 conspiracist for misrepresenting his remarks.

[skyeagle409]

Babe Ruth, on 08 December 2012 - 03:25 PM, said:

That part of the Pentagon was targeted because of an investigation by congressional auditors and the Office of Naval Investigation regarding financial irregularities spanning back some number of years.

Targeted by what? Another P700 anti-ship missile?!

[skyeagle409]

Babe Ruth, on 06 December 2012 - 04:36 PM, said:

The work of Warren Stutts was most helpful in that it focused the discussion in a good way.  Trouble is, close examination ends up working against the preliminary conclusion reached by Mr. Stutts.

Once again, you do not understand ACARS. In regards to the FDR data of American 77, what did Boeing and United Airlines supply to investigators?

Quote

Woody's next project is a close analysis of the Airfone data.  Should be interesting, eh?

Woody Box doesn't know what he is talking about, which he has proven time and again.

[skyeagle409]

-M7, on 08 December 2012 - 05:50 AM, said:

Perhaps that particular part of the Pentagon was a target for what was there...What was going on at that part of the building at that time?

Just food for thought.

The government doesn't put all of its eggs in the same basket. Ever used a government computer?

[Babe Ruth]

RaptorBites, on 06 December 2012 - 09:41 PM, said:

Why do you continue to mis-interpret Wally Miller's statements?

Don't even bother answering that.  We all know the reason.

Wally Miller's testimony might be compared to Van Romero's, who was a New Mexico Tech expert on explosives.  On Day 1, he told the Albuquerque Journal that it looked to him that after the airplane strike, explosives were employed to bring the buildings down.

Eventually, he was coerced into "clarifying" or "editing" his statement.  Kinda like Wally Miller was.

2 men, and 2 comments that contradicted the Official Conspiracy Theory.  Amended, corrected, edited, so that the OCT might live on in infamy.  A pattern of behavior, and the heart of the coverup which goes on today.