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Roswell UFO Was Not Of This Earth


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#76    DONTEATUS

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 01:23 AM

View PostTheMacGuffin, on 10 July 2012 - 01:14 AM, said:

I can't tell you what color they really were, since I only saw them in black and white pictures.  LOL.
Im keepin my SamsungIII with that new snappy,Slappy transporter function ! I plan to slap me a Little green E.T right onto the World wide web in Fool Color !
It will no doubt go viral in seconds
!

This is a Work in Progress!

#77    csspwns

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 01:36 AM

this is sad :(


#78    TheMacGuffin

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 01:44 AM

View Postcsspwns, on 10 July 2012 - 01:36 AM, said:

this is sad :(

Do you know what's ever sadder?  Many Air Force records from 1946-50 are lost, missing or destroyed.

http://www.fas.org/s...ov/roswell.html


#79    White Unicorn

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 02:11 AM

So many people have been giving half truths and false stories for 65 years. I doubt anyone knows what the truth is anymore. The real incident could have occured elsewhere and Roswell was one of several red herring events. This guy is promoting a book so I wouldn't take it as a correct speculation on his part. He wasn't there. I believe people who were in that time and were there and "elsewhere".  Those people dare not say what they know and they have to feed the public half truths for many reasons.

People should think of WHY the government still wouldn't be able to release such an event.  People got freaked over War of the Worlds on the radio. The government  may have believed the  aliens might need a time line to return, so we are prepped for that day by the scifi stuff that came out on TV. We aren't in that age anymore so the real question is why wouldn't the government want to be transparent now.

Now to a real "alien" event, we'd definitely  want their technology or have others nations believe it is ours.  The bomb was being developed, Tesla  experimented  and said  he got messages from outer space then discovered the good and bad energies, German scientists were recruited and  developing stuff with the US research and development for weapons. One President says to his people, don't shoot them down because who or whatever they are, are way beyond us and we don't want them as an enemy.  

Now if a real space or space time traveler came and a government got a hold of them and a ship that crashed or that was shot down what is the logical thing to do ? R & D  send it to a foreign technology analysis lab far away from the site and any survivors or pieces of a survivor to a military burn center for study. Cloak and dagger and conspiracies start because everyone is human and  wants the power but its top secret and they all only have pieces of the truth and have NO clue as to what they the aliens have or why they are here.  If we were so helplessly behind technology wise and they knew we were coming to close to something and would become a threat, say like a seeing a kid with a stick of dynomite and a lit match.  They or their drones would be here for their own research and development...

We were behind in technology so leaders with the need to know would want to be their allies and keep what they discover to themselves. Now the powers that be discover many things and do their own black projects under the protective guise of crazy alien abductions.  No social responsibilty if the aliens did it or the witnesses were made to appear more crazy then they already become  from PTSD. I could see the public outrage that our brightest military intelligences didn't have enough answers and were only bluffing that they knew more when they didn't.

I think something along these lines could be why a government wouldn't want to reveal a real alien contact. People would find out too much about the things that weren't alien. Follow the money as they say. Could you imagine all the lawsuits and conspiracy people being more anti-government  when too many things came out at once, not to mention the poor guys "in the know" who would have to disappear?


#80    psyche101

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 02:15 AM

View PostTheMacGuffin, on 10 July 2012 - 12:57 AM, said:

Do you want my best guess where they would be, if they still exist and were declassified?  I say this because Robert Sarbacher and Eric Walker were involved with this organization, and we know they were also involved in UFO investigations, and even in UFO crashes--or so they said many years later.


Record Group 330.11.3 Records of the Research and Development Board
Textual Records: Records relating to fiscal and budgetary aspects of research and development programs, 1946-53. Records relating to new weapons and equipment, 1942-45. Progress reports of army, navy, and air force weapons research, 1946-54. Biological warfare reports, 1946-60. Minutes of meetings of the Executive Council, 1946-50. Records of the Committee on Technical Information, 1946-53.


And possibly here:

Record Group 330.11.1 General records
Textual Records: Research and engineering policy records, 1953-57. Subject files of the Committee on Aeronautical Facilities, 1954-57.

330.13.1 Records of the Executive Committee
Textual Records: Correspondence, 1945-47.

330.13.2 Records of the Office of the Chairman of the Board
Textual Records: Records relating to procurement, production, and allocation of military and naval material and equipment, and to industrial mobilization, 1942-53. Organizational and historical records of the board, 1921-53. Correspondence of Gen. Leroy Lutes, Chairman, 1948. Correspondence relating to surveys of aircraft procurement and appropriations for the armed forces, 1948. Records of the historian and special assistant to the chairman, 1948-53. Records maintained by Chairmen Donald F. Carpenter, Hubert E. Howard, and Thomas J. Hargrave, 1947-50. Records of the acting chairman and deputy chairman, 1947-50. Records of the Procurement Policy Council, 1946-53.

http://www.archives....0.html#330.11.3


I wonder what secret document Karlis thinks the government have squirreled away though? He seems rather specific in his accusation. Also as far as the media goes, not that anyone who wants information accurately reported would bother with this path, they already have been made available the archives on Roswell and televised by the History Channel, but when they opened them we got the old "evidence was switched" story. Unless they open a box and a little green man pops out like a jack in the box, a contingent will never be satisfied and claim cover up based on belief.
If those men wanted to expose something like this, would they not have pocketed something, or have something at home they could use? Just hearing words year after year gets a little tiresome. So many people have ET clams but nothing to back them, one wonders the point of going to the media with these claims to begin with. Nothing in history along these lines has ever worked, why keep beating the same dead horse?

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. - Sir Isaac Newton Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit. - Ed Stewart Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Dr Who

#81    psyche101

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 02:18 AM

View PostJunior Chubb, on 10 July 2012 - 01:22 AM, said:

Hi psyche101, where can I read  Lost Shamans excellent hypothesis. Is it in a thread on here?

It is in the BE thread, part 3 I think, I will have a look for a link.

In a nutshell it basically says that the USAF wanted to study the UFO phenomena in peace, so they staged Roswell. The Twining memo seems to support this conclusion as does the find at the Brazel ranch, and the other RAWIN finds around that time frame. Not to mention not a single shred of evidence exists to support the debris field claim, it relies 100% on testimony, which is heavily conflicting.

Edited by psyche101, 10 July 2012 - 02:19 AM.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. - Sir Isaac Newton Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit. - Ed Stewart Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Dr Who

#82    psyche101

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 02:23 AM

View PostDONTEATUS, on 10 July 2012 - 12:55 AM, said:

But we could be Ruled by littel Green Men/Strike that Frog`s !

If LGM arrive looking like that, for their sakes I hope they do not crash in France.

Posted Image

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. - Sir Isaac Newton Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit. - Ed Stewart Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Dr Who

#83    TheMacGuffin

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 02:35 AM

View Postpsyche101, on 10 July 2012 - 02:15 AM, said:

They already have been made available the archives on Roswell and televised by the History Channel, but when they opened them we got the old "evidence was switched" story. Unless they open a box and a little green man pops out like a jack in the box, a contingent will never be satisfied and claim cover up based on belief.

I gave people some good advice where to look for UFO records that are probably highly classified.  That's all I can do at this point, Psyche, and probably more than I should be doing.

I would never used the word "switched", either, because they have probably been security segregated from the ones released to the archives.  

I think you understand what I'm getting at here, but I can make no promises.  This is the most I can do here.

Edited by TheMacGuffin, 10 July 2012 - 02:36 AM.


#84    psyche101

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 02:36 AM

View PostTheMacGuffin, on 10 July 2012 - 01:44 AM, said:

Do you know what's ever sadder?  Many Air Force records from 1946-50 are lost, missing or destroyed.

http://www.fas.org/s...ov/roswell.html


Actually, the records the GAO had a whinge about were destroyed officially and within USAF guidelines. WG Siebert from the GAO challenged the first draft of the GAO report, and lambasted it greatly claiming inaccuracies, and specifically, that these very records claimed to be destroyed without reason were routinely destroyed or removed well within Air Force guidelines. I had a post on it some time back in the old Skyeagle days. The Air Force manual itself confirms this paragraph 53b manual 181-5. That part says that any records accumulated at wing level or below are to be scheduled as one item and destroyed after 2 years.

This draft report of the GAO report was not supposed to go out to the public until these items had been verified and the report altered for accuracy. However, in his desperation to get some public interest and back into the limelight, not to mention a favourable light in his public Roswell escapade, Schiff forced the draft copy out to the press before the mistakes could be corrected. His one red tape was the only thing stopping the general public from finding out exactly what the real story is.
Congressman Schiff is a prime example of what is wrong with UFOlogy today IMHO.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. - Sir Isaac Newton Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit. - Ed Stewart Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Dr Who

#85    TheMacGuffin

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 02:40 AM

View Postpsyche101, on 10 July 2012 - 02:18 AM, said:

It is in the BE thread, part 3 I think, I will have a look for a link.

In a nutshell it basically says that the USAF wanted to study the UFO phenomena in peace, so they staged Roswell. The Twining memo seems to support this conclusion as does the find at the Brazel ranch, and the other RAWIN finds around that time frame. Not to mention not a single shred of evidence exists to support the debris field claim, it relies 100% on testimony, which is heavily conflicting.

I think the studies of UFOs began earlier, and I have seen some records to that effect, but the amount of publicity and media attention in the big UFO waves from 1947 onward was much greater than in the past, and we know that they had policies to deal with that.  In my opinion, someone really tried to put the lid down after the 1952 wave, but the amount of attention paid to this subject has always waxed and waned.

You're probably right that they prefer the quiet periods between the big waves, when no one is paying much attention, but the UFOs don't necessarily cooperate.

Edited by TheMacGuffin, 10 July 2012 - 02:59 AM.


#86    TheMacGuffin

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 02:50 AM

View Postpsyche101, on 10 July 2012 - 02:36 AM, said:

Actually, the records the GAO had a whinge about were destroyed officially and within USAF guidelines. WG Siebert from the GAO challenged the first draft of the GAO report, and lambasted it greatly claiming inaccuracies, and specifically, that these very records claimed to be destroyed without reason were routinely destroyed or removed well within Air Force guidelines. I had a post on it some time back in the old Skyeagle days. The Air Force manual itself confirms this paragraph 53b manual 181-5. That part says that any records accumulated at wing level or below are to be scheduled as one item and destroyed after 2 years.

This draft report of the GAO report was not supposed to go out to the public until these items had been verified and the report altered for accuracy. However, in his desperation to get some public interest and back into the limelight, not to mention a favourable light in his public Roswell escapade, Schiff forced the draft copy out to the press before the mistakes could be corrected. His one red tape was the only thing stopping the general public from finding out exactly what the real story is.
Congressman Schiff is a prime example of what is wrong with UFOlogy today IMHO.


As you can see here just from Record Group 342, for example, the destruction was not total, and some of these records of units go back many years.  I'd be careful stating what the actual policy was or how it was applied since that seems to have been very "uneven".

I do not doubt that Schiff turned out to be a thorn in their side, making requests along these lines that were unusual (and unwelcome) coming from a member of Congress.

http://www.archives....groups/342.html

Edited by TheMacGuffin, 10 July 2012 - 02:51 AM.


#87    TheMacGuffin

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 02:52 AM

I wonder if there was ever any interesting UFO stuff in here?  I bet you there probably was.


342.3 RECORDS OF THE ENGINEERING DIVISION AND ITS PREDECESSORS
1916-51



History: Airplane Engineering Department, Aviation Section, Office of the Chief Signal Officer, U.S. Army, established October 13, 1917. Redesignated Airplane Engineering Division and transferred to Bureau of Aircraft Production, August 31, 1918. Redesignated Technical Division, January 1, 1919. Redesignated Engineering Division, Air Service, May 13, 1919. Redesignated Materiel Division, Air Corps, October 15, 1926. Redesignated Materiel Center (MC), Army Air Forces (AAF), March 6, 1942. Redesignated Air Force Materiel Command (AFMC), by General Order 16, MC, April 6, 1942. New organization, designated Engineering Division, established under AFMC by Notice 103, AFMC, June 7, 1942. AFMC redesignated successively Materiel Command, April 15, 1943; AAF Materiel Command, June 15, 1944; AAF Materiel and Services Command, summer 1944; AAF Technical Service Command, September 1, 1944; Air Technical Service Command, July 1, 1945; and Air Materiel Command (AMC), March 13, 1946. Engineering Division transferred from AMC to Air Research and Development Command (ARDC) by Notice 77, AMC, April 3, 1951. ARDC redesignated Air Force Systems Command (AFSC); and Engineering Division redesignated Aeronautical Systems Division of AFSC, effective April 1, 1961, by Letter AFOMO 590M, Department of the Air Force (DAF), March 20, 1961.

Note: For administrative histories of the air force organization at the highest echelon, SEE 18.1, 18.2, 18.5, 18.7, 341.1, and 341.2.

Textual Records: Central decimal correspondence, 1916-49 (1,774 ft.). Research and development project contract files, 1921-51 (3,438 ft.). Microfilm copy of research and development technical reports, 1928-51 (400 rolls).

Related Records: Records of the Bureau of Aeronautics, RG 72.


#88    psyche101

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 02:52 AM

View PostTheMacGuffin, on 10 July 2012 - 02:35 AM, said:

I gave people some good advice where to look for UFO records that are probably highly classified.  That's all I can do at this point, Psyche, and probably more than I should be doing.

I would never used the word "switched", either, because they have probably been security segregated from the ones released to the archives.  

I think you understand what I'm getting at here, but I can make no promises.  This is the most I can do here.

Oh no, sorry McGuffin, I was not indicating that you were saying there is more to this, just pointing out that Karlis seems to be looking for a specific folder. I would agree with you the records from the time frame would be by far the very best place to investigate the clam. Sorry for any confusion. An excellent link to some pertinent information, thank you.

Edited by psyche101, 10 July 2012 - 03:12 AM.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. - Sir Isaac Newton Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit. - Ed Stewart Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Dr Who

#89    TheMacGuffin

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 02:56 AM

I'm more familiar with what's in Record Group 338, which is one of the biggest of all (Records of US Army Commands), such as Headquarters, European Command (EUCOM), but in the past the Air Force was still part of the Army.  That's an important fact that often gets forgotten in the study of UFOs.

342.6 RECORDS OF AIR FORCE BASES
1945-68


Note: This subgroup includes approximately 2 lin. ft. of records in process of reallocation from Record Group 338, Records of U.S. Army Commands, 1942-. Summary descriptions of these records are enclosed in braces {}.

http://www.archives.gov/research/guide-fed-records/groups/342.html


#90    psyche101

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 03:04 AM

View PostTheMacGuffin, on 10 July 2012 - 02:50 AM, said:

As you can see here just from Record Group 342, for example, the destruction was not total, and some of these records of units go back many years.  I'd be careful stating what the actual policy was or how it was applied since that seems to have been very "uneven".

Some records have to be kept though, depending on content, we still have some aspects of black ops from a very long time ago that are still being tested and considered for todays applications. As such, it is understandable why such records would not be for public eyes. But the records that were destroyed were not destroyed illegally as per Schiffs claim, and the GAO knew this. They were destroyed according the the USAF manual. Nothing untoward as was suggested.

View PostTheMacGuffin, on 10 July 2012 - 02:50 AM, said:

I do not doubt that Schiff turned out to be a thorn in their side, making requests along these lines that were unusual (and unwelcome) coming from a member of Congress.

http://www.archives....groups/342.html

I would not consider him a thorn, more of a PITA. He released the draft version of the report as the official version, knowing it had holes in it. That is a public disservice. He jumped up and down at his own red tape. And in the end, he accomplished no more than adding to the rumour mill. As far as I am aware, the GAOwere unable to so much as dent the hypothesis put forth by McAndrews. All Schiff did was slow the investigation with his demands.

Colonel Richard Weaver said of the investigation:


Quote

...there was no indication in official records from the period that there was heightened military operational or security activity which should have been generated if this was, in fact, the first recovery of materials and /or persons from another world. The postwar U.S. military (or today's for that matter) did not have the capability to rapidly identify, recover, coordinate, cover up, and quickly minimize public scrutiny of such an event. The claim that they did so without leaving even a little bit of a suspicious paper trail for 47 years is incredible.


Edited by psyche101, 10 July 2012 - 03:09 AM.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. - Sir Isaac Newton Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit. - Ed Stewart Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Dr Who




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