381 replies to this topic

[Liquid Gardens]

Left-Field, on 19 October 2012 - 07:39 PM, said:

The thing is, however, is that I am making such comments in regards to people who have readily admitted to not taking this topic seriously. People who have readily admitted they will not take the time to look into any information which suggests the "elite" operate in the manner I believe they do.

When people refuse to look into such information, yet they have no qualms about telling those who do look into such things how wrong they are then they are clearly not coming to an honest conclusion based on all the evidence. They are arriving at their conclusions based on their preconceived notions and lack of overall knowledge about the topic.

Or they are coming to conclusions based on what they think is sufficient information to know whether it's valid or not?  You don't have to, and can't possibly, know everything there is to know about any topic in order to come to informed conclusions about it.  I don't have to study the astrological theories concerning the esoterics of how the precession of the equinoxes (yes, I had to look that up) supposedly affect horoscopes to know that astrology is likely bunk.  They haven't shown any mechanism by which astrology works or any evidence of even a phenomenon to study, that's about all I really need to know.

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I am the one being told I am wrong for my beliefs about how the "elite" run things. I'm not being told I may be wrong, I'm being told I am flat-out wrong.

If those telling me I am wrong have zero thoughts of their own about how the "elite" operate then how can they possibly conclude that my thoughts on the subject are 100% wrong?

Are they telling you there is no possibility that you are correct, or that you don't have nearly enough evidence to support your assertion?  And I disagree with your 'zero thoughts' argument here, I could have no opinion on how the elite operate because I don't think there is enough evidence to determine that, and still say that your assertion is likely wrong, well, because I don't think there is enough evidence to determine that (or that directly supports your point).  I don't have to provide a counterproposal explaining how the elite operate, I can just point out that there's not enough evidence to support what you're arguing for example.

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Yet for some reason, simply because I can't provide 100% proof (which again, I never claimed I could) they automatically declare I am wrong and that my beliefs must be based on nothing more than nonsense because this 100% proof is not being produced.

Again, you are kind of poisoning the well, no one's standard is 100% proof, and you are ignoring the (likely) possibility that they legitimately disagree with you.  It is possible that you are just incorrect on this, right?  There is absolutely nothing wrong with that, you don't lose any points for it (as matter of fact, on a personal level you gain them in that there's the opportunity to learn something new).  I haven't read the thread and I haven't read your evidence so realize I'm just talking about your argumentation in a hypothetical sense above, I haven't read what you've had to say so have no opinion on whether you are correct or not. I just mainly wanted to point out the poisoning the well thing, and also I'll just note that you've put together a few decent sized posts here (and mine are usually long also) but most of it is kind of repeating how unreasonable the people who disagree with you are being and how biased they are.  All of that space could alternatively better be taken up with your evidence and the statement of your arguments, and the addressing of people's counterpoints.  Not saying any of this to be mean or debate you, just my opinion.

[booNyzarC]

Left-Field, on 19 October 2012 - 07:39 PM, said:

When people refuse to look into such information, yet they have no qualms about telling those who do look into such things how wrong they are then they are clearly not coming to an honest conclusion based on all the evidence. They are arriving at their conclusions based on their preconceived notions and lack of overall knowledge about the topic.

Just for the sake of clarity, are you referring to me with this in any way?  Also for the sake of clarity, I'd like to point out that I've asked you to present your case.  For the most part you've chosen not to, though you did ask me to look at a piece of your evidence... stuff...  erm, information...  I did so here.  Is it your intention to not address or even acknowledge the points raised?

Are you replacing what Raptor has identified as Argumentum Verbosum with a new tactic of Argumentum Avoidum?  Just curious.

[MstrMsn]

For the record, it's Bohemian Grove, not the Bohemian Club. And yes, there is a 40 foot stone Owl.

Now, a few things to point out:

1, just because a group meets in private (whether they are regular people, the elite, or world leaders) does not make them a secret society, nor does it mean anything sinister is going on. If you can't understand the basic human right to privacy, then give me your address, and I'll be glad to welcome myself into your home.

2, I enjoy learning about "secret societies". Mainly, because learning about them means that they are NOT secret! The world cannot know the existence of a group if it is a secret group, otherwise, they are not a secret group. Yes, the Illuminati did exist. They don't anymore, and not one shed of FACTUAL evidence has come out to prove otherwise. Yes, there have been people's interpretations of possible evidence, but most is nothing more than wild speculation and paranoia.

3, The absolutely wonderful thing about a belief, is to believe it, you don't need proof. However, when you are trying to convince someone else that your belief is true (or correct), then you must provide something tangible to back up your position. Otherwise, you are nothing more than one of those bible thumpers going door-to-door pissing people off.

Edited by MstrMsn, 21 October 2012 - 04:32 AM.

[Left-Field]

booNyzarC, on 20 October 2012 - 11:32 PM, said:

Just for the sake of clarity, are you referring to me with this in any way?

I'm referring to everyone who has done what I stated either currently, at some point within this thread, or in regards to certain things I have mentioned. You would be included amongst that group.

booNyzarC, on 20 October 2012 - 11:32 PM, said:

Also for the sake of clarity, I'd like to point out that I've asked you to present your case.  For the most part you've chosen not to

When you and others choose to ignore the information I've presented that lies at the core of my beliefs regarding how the "elite" operate it does not constitute me not presenting my case like you are claiming.

I've mentioned these things multiple times and not one person has bothered discussing them. I can't force any of you to discuss my reasoning.

booNyzarC, on 20 October 2012 - 11:32 PM, said:

though you did ask me to look at a piece of your information...  I did so here.  Is it your intention to not address or even acknowledge the points raised?

No, that is not my intention.

If I don't address a post you - or anyone else has made - within a day and a half time frame are you going to assume I will not address the post at any point afterwards?

booNyzarC, on 20 October 2012 - 11:32 PM, said:

Are you replacing what Raptor has identified as Argumentum Verbosum with a new tactic of Argumentum Avoidum?  Just curious.

First off, I've addressed more questions and comments directed towards me than anyone in this thread. I am certainly not the one who's avoided anything.

Secondly, if you think me not replying to a post you or anyone else has made within 1-2 days is fair reason to claim I am avoiding something than so be it. It's an unreasonable expectation, especially since I don't even visit this site every day or even every other day anymore, but being unreasonable about things doesn't seem to be an issue for some.

[Left-Field]

MstrMsn, on 21 October 2012 - 04:30 AM, said:

For the record, it's Bohemian Grove, not the Bohemian Club. And yes, there is a 40 foot stone Owl.

Your "records" are wrong. There is both the Bohemian Grove (a location), and a Bohemian Club (a group of people who gather at Bohemain Grove).

[Left-Field]

MstrMsn, on 21 October 2012 - 04:30 AM, said:

1, just because a group meets in private (whether they are regular people, the elite, or world leaders) does not make them a secret society, nor does it mean anything sinister is going on. If you can't understand the basic human right to privacy, then give me your address, and I'll be glad to welcome myself into your home.

Totally off-base. But so be it. I am not here to change the minds of those who know in their heart they will never see things differently than they already do until the "proof" they seek is so crystal clear that they can't continue to deny it anymore (and even then it may take something more).

I do not gather in secret at my home. If I did so with a group of others, however, then yes, we would be forming are own "secret" society.

If you can't understand such things as simple as that than you will never understand the truths of how the "elite" operate.

MstrMsn, on 21 October 2012 - 04:30 AM, said:

2, I enjoy learning about "secret societies". Mainly, because learning about them means that they are NOT secret! The world cannot know the existence of a group if it is a secret group, otherwise, they are not a secret group.

What do you call a group that attempted to be secret only for their presence to slowly become public knowledge? The group formed as a secret society. They still attempt to keep secret their activities - some of which they still manage to do.

What you are doing is simply a matter of semantics.

And by the way, the overwhelming majority of the population still have no idea about Bohemain Grove or the Bohemain Club (which are both real as I stated in my previous post regarding you "records").

MstrMsn, on 21 October 2012 - 04:30 AM, said:

Yes, the Illuminati did exist. They don't anymore, and not one shed of FACTUAL evidence has come out to prove otherwise. Yes, there have been people's interpretations of possible evidence, but most is nothing more than wild speculation and paranoia.

Ah, yes, says you and everyone else who turns a blind eye to what the available information suggests is true.

I really don't care to call them the "Illuminati," which is something I have statee more than a couple times within this thread. So in that regard if you want to claim the "Illuminati" doesn't exist go right ahead. What they refer to themselves as is not the real issue, however, it is how the "elite" of the world conspire together as a means of serving their own self interests rather than those of the common good. As well as covering up their crimes.

MstrMsn, on 21 October 2012 - 04:30 AM, said:

3, The absolutely wonderful thing about a belief, is to believe it, you don't need proof. However, when you are trying to convince someone else that your belief is true (or correct), then you must provide something tangible to back up your position.

And I have done so. The issue is that what some clearly see as "tangible" (the symbolism prevalent around us and events in history which show the government, law enforcement, and media work together to cover up their crimes and mislead the general public about many things) gets turned into the doubters looking for any little bit of what they tell themselves is "reasonable" doubt as a means of ignoring what the information available truly indicates.

MstrMsn, on 21 October 2012 - 04:30 AM, said:

Otherwise, you are nothing more than one of those bible thumpers going door-to-door pissing people off.

That is not true in the least. When I post about conspiracies in the conspiracy sections of the forum that in no way aligns with the comparision of a person knocking on someone's door to discuss anything (whether it be religion or selling cookies).

You are more like an atheist walking into a Christain church and then complaining that the people within the church are discussing their belief in God.

You knew what was going to be discussed before entering the chruch, so why did you enter it in the first place only to complain about people discussing their belief in God?

No one forced you to enter this thread. And it certainly doesn't equate to being your home or any other piece of property you may happen to own.

Edited by Left-Field, 21 October 2012 - 09:44 AM.

[Left-Field]

booNyzarC, on 17 October 2012 - 04:08 PM, said:

You could have saved yourself a lot of typing, and me a lot of reading, by simply saying "I don't actually have any evidence, but if I did I don't believe you would accept it anyway."

I will respond however I so choose. If you can't be bothered to read my full responses then don't. I could tell you what I could whittle your responses down to every time you respond as well, but it would be rather pointless for the sake of this discussion.

booNyzarC, on 17 October 2012 - 04:08 PM, said:

You can't say that I haven't asked for it.  I very clearly requested you to make your case.  If you choose not to, that is up to you.

Yes, and I have very clearly stated numerous things that lie and the core of my reasoning regarding how it is the "elite" operate. I have mentioned these things no less than 3-5 times. You and others have completely ignored them.

If I present these things only for you and others to ignore them you can't justly reason that I have not "presented my case."

Furthermore, you have admitted that you do not take this subject seriously nor do you care to take a serious look into any of the information presented which stands in contrast to your pre-established beliefs (or disbeliefs if that is what you prefer to call them).

That being the case how can you expect me to really bother that much addressing you specifically when you've already admitted such things?

Why should I take the time to present worthwhile information to a person who has already admitted they won't bother looking into it as deeply as they should (if at all)?

booNyzarC, on 17 October 2012 - 04:08 PM, said:

A rising phoenix?  I fail to see how you equate this to be the Lamen of Ordo Templi Orientis.

First of all, the Eye of Horus is notably missing from the triangle above the phoenix.  Secondly, it's a freaking rising phoenix, not a descending dove.  Third, there is no cross in the supposed chalice below.  I suppose you could suggest that there are 'crosses' on either side of the phoenix in the crowd, but then it isn't exactly the Lamen of Ordo Templi Orientis is it?  

Fourth, it isn't even a chalice at all, but rather the flaming Olympic cauldron.  Fifth, even if it were supposed to be a chalice, the Lamen of Ordo Templi Orientis has a singular flame at the top, it isn't filled with burning flames like the Olympic cauldron.  Sixth, where are the 24 rays which are supposed to be extending from the triangle with no Eye of Horus?  Seventh, where is the heart shaped Host?

In short, you're trying to shoehorn an interpretation into this imagery which is completely inappropriate.  It doesn't fit.

When this is the approach you and other doubters take to such things there really is no common ground to even bother attempting a reasonable discussion about the subject with you.

If you really don't pick up on the symbology than you are fooling and/or lying to yourself.

And like I said previously I am not posting in this thread to convince you (or others aligned with you) that my beliefs are facts. You have already made up your mind an nothing will change it, You know this as well as I do whether you will admit to it or not.

I post information regarding the subject as a means of explaining my beliefs, and so that those legitimately interested in the topic from a standpoint that doesn't fall in line with what the mainstream media, news outlets, and government present thing as can see things from a different angle and come to their own conclusions about the subject.

This thread has nearly 20,000 views. The overwhelming majority of them likely come from guests who aren't even members here and don't feel a need to share their thoughts on the subject whether they happen to lean towards my way of thought or are more aligned with yours.

booNyzarC, on 17 October 2012 - 04:08 PM, said:

This is no more symbolic of the Illuminati than a music video is.  It doesn't fit at all.

But again, there is Illuminati symbolism throughout much of the music/entertainment industry. No matter how many times this is shown to you (and if you really want me specifically to get into that I will present the information which shows this to be the case) however you will not see it. You will deny it over and over again no matter what.

Again, you know this as well as I do whether you will admit to it or not.

booNyzarC, on 17 October 2012 - 04:08 PM, said:

What does it actually symbolize?  Seems to me that it merely symbolizes the closing of the games.  Nothing more.

It symbolizes what I've already told you it symbolizes - the 'Ordo Templi Orientis.'

booNyzarC, on 17 October 2012 - 04:08 PM, said:

Here's a simple article with a less sinister point of view if you're interested.

The fact you presented that article only shows how naive you are regarding what is being discussed within this thread.

Edited by Left-Field, 21 October 2012 - 10:33 AM.

[RaptorBites]

Left-Field, on 21 October 2012 - 10:16 AM, said:

But again, there is Illuminati symbolism throughout much of the music/entertainment industry. No matter how many times this is shown to you (and if you really want me specifically to get into that I will present the information which shows this to be the case) however you will not see it. You will deny it over and over again no matter what.

Which, again, brings us back to the original request.

This "symbolisim" you speak of.  Any evidence to support your belief that the "symbolisim" pertains to the "Illuminati" and ONLY the "Illuminati"?

This is what it literally boils down to.

As far as my Argumentum Verbosum description of your argument.  You seem to overload your evidence of the exsistance of a "secret society" using tons of obscure situations and obscure "symbols" to warrant your beliefs.

Edited by RaptorBites, 21 October 2012 - 06:00 PM.

[booNyzarC]

Left-Field, on 21 October 2012 - 09:20 AM, said:

I am certainly not the one who's avoided anything.

Hi Left-Field, thank you for your responses.  I just want to let you know that I'm working on a response but I also have quite a bit going on right now so it may take some time.

Cheers.

[MstrMsn]

Left-Field, on 21 October 2012 - 09:42 AM, said:

No one forced you to enter this thread. And it certainly doesn't equate to being your home or any other piece of property you may happen to own.

I'm going to start with this, and a bit later when I have more time, I will get back to the rest.

You missed my point completely. This has nothing to do with physically going someplace. It has to do with the message being delivered.

Both messages (from the bible thumpers) and you both lack the same thing - tangible proof. They use a book that has inaccuracies. You use recycled theories that are nothing more than supposition.

[monk 56]

Don't get me wrong i like the Olympics, and there are mysteries involving the "Torchbearer" that goes back to when this was established in the Berlin Olympics of 1936, since then every olympics has had alignments to Alnilam and Sirius regarding the Torchbearers, tomorrow i will start on this on my own thread that isn't on this forum, but of beliefs and religion forum.

Most secret societies do align to Sirius and Alnilam anyway so will be interesting data and research, we see the first statue of the torchbearer involved with olympics in a Nazi Castle involved in its strange religious beliefs, link below:-

http://2012forum.com...=6636&mode=view

Edited by monk 56, 24 October 2012 - 01:07 PM.

[fehnley]

First off, I do not necessarily believe in any conspiracy theory, I just want to state the information that's out there, mainly because I read nearly 20 pages of this debate with one user being subjected to barrages of questions and somewhat bullying behaviour including name calling.

Secondly, a conspiracy theory is just that, a theory because it cannot be proved so all those asking for proof do so knowing it's never going to happen.

I want to start off with a post I read asking what the point is of the pyramid with the all seeing eye and why it wasn't another shape used.

When you look at the goal of the illuminati as speculated, it is for new world order. A single government for the world. The pyramid has 13 steps before the eye at the top symbolizing 13 steps required before the last stone of the pyramid can be set. The eye if you like could be interpreted as a symbol of the one government.

Secondly, you need to look at the information out there on the illuminati. I may not be religious but clearly this stems from religion. The new world order theory comes from biblical prophecies that claim the illuminati are leading up to two witnesses, a false prophet and a beast who will use the impending economic crises in America and threat attacks on middle eastern countries to have people start to believe in a false prophet which is written through out many religious texts. The false prophet signals the return of the messiah and some people theorize that the role of the illuminati is to push new world order to bring closer the coming of a second messiah as 'prophesied' in many different religions.

Does this all make things seem more far fetched? Probably, especially when you tie in the theory of obamacare allowing a clause to have implants put into people which becomes 'the mark of the beast)s also signalling the messiah is coming (after all this new order, false prophet stuff.

If anyone is genuinely interested in reading about it, it's all out there. Believing is a different matter but some things are just interesting. It doesnt make people crazy or insane or anything else.

There's no point ripping my post apart either as I just don't really care. I just happen to come across this thread and felt one person needed someone to stick up for them rather than have everyone bash them for things they find interesting. Along with me feeling that the religious aspect of the illuminati has not been mentioned along with new world order and the ideas behind the symbolism of the pyramid.

Edited by fehnley, 08 November 2012 - 12:37 AM.

[Junior Chubb]

fehnley, on 08 November 2012 - 12:34 AM, said:

First off, I do not necessarily believe in any conspiracy theory, I just want to state the information that's out there, mainly because I read nearly 20 pages of this debate with one user being subjected to barrages of questions and somewhat bullying behaviour including name calling.

Secondly, a conspiracy theory is just that, a theory because it cannot be proved so all those asking for proof do so knowing it's never going to happen.

I want to start off with a post I read asking what the point is of the pyramid with the all seeing eye and why it wasn't another shape used.

When you look at the goal of the illuminati as speculated, it is for new world order. A single government for the world. The pyramid has 13 steps before the eye at the top symbolizing 13 steps required before the last stone of the pyramid can be set. The eye if you like could be interpreted as a symbol of the one government.

Secondly, you need to look at the information out there on the illuminati. I may not be religious but clearly this stems from religion. The new world order theory comes from biblical prophecies that claim the illuminati are leading up to two witnesses, a false prophet and a beast who will use the impending economic crises in America and threat attacks on middle eastern countries to have people start to believe in a false prophet which is written through out many religious texts. The false prophet signals the return of the messiah and some people theorize that the role of the illuminati is to push new world order to bring closer the coming of a second messiah as 'prophesied' in many different religions.

Does this all make things seem more far fetched? Probably, especially when you tie in the theory of obamacare allowing a clause to have implants put into people which becomes 'the mark of the beast)s also signalling the messiah is coming (after all this new order, false prophet stuff.

If anyone is genuinely interested in reading about it, it's all out there. Believing is a different matter but some things are just interesting. It doesnt make people crazy or insane or anything else.

There's no point ripping my post apart either as I just don't really care. I just happen to come across this thread and felt one person needed someone to stick up for them rather than have everyone bash them for things they find interesting. Along with me feeling that the religious aspect of the illuminati has not been mentioned along with new world order and the ideas behind the symbolism of the pyramid.

Hi fehnley and welcome to UM.

Just to add a bit more to your pyramid definition, the pyramid can be used to represent a symbol of power as the one at the top is supported by the few below, and they are in turn supported by the many below them this goes on and on until the bottom row where the 'lowest class' support the whole structure and are kept in place through slavery, debt or ignorance.

The religious prophecies you mention are relevant to the thread but I do not understand you attaching it to America. There was no 'America' when these texts were written and America is does not represent the whole world, just a very small percentage of it. I would have thought a 'prophecy' of this kind if unfolding today would be more effective in India or China for example, that hold a much greater chunk of the worlds population or maybe aimed at a continent rather than an individual country.

Edited by Junior Chubb, 08 November 2012 - 09:55 AM.

[fehnley]

Thank you

My mention of America being involved is probably clouded due to a lot of the new world order thing being associated with this last US president stuff, Obama being the false messiah or whatever he is supposedly suppose to be. And that the economics and war threats contribute to the downfall of America in turn leading to the mark of the beast (these supposed implant things) which is part of this whole prophesied circle.

I think I read somewhere that the downfall of American from its greatness and influence was the catalyst if you like to these chain of.events. Perhaps a little off topic, my bad!

As for China, I've heard that the new elections are apparently more important that the recent US ones so in fact you have a point there for sure.

I think in terms of the new world.order it really depends who you see as the "antichrist" the false prophet etc and I'd imagine with the elections and Obama still being in power the conspiracies are rife with him being involved in it.

I guess you can't argue with the fact though that the Iran/Israel problems are nearing a war zone of which Russia and the US are most certainly going to get involved in. World war 3 theories anyone?

[fehnley]

I believe the 13 steps of the pyramid is also supposed to represent the 13 founding families of the illuminati. It then goes on to say they are 'reptiliqn' decendants which is a little :/

If you look at the names of these people and the 300 or so others allegedly involved you have 'rothchild' who controlled the price of gold for q long while and 'oppenheimer' (I think, off the top of my head, may be slightly wrong with that) the man who is currently at the.top of Apple (I'll have to get back to you on exactly what his name and role is)

The names are everywhere, but whether the illuminati still exists it's it's old or new form is a huge subject for discussion.

Edited by fehnley, 08 November 2012 - 01:57 PM.