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5 reasons fracking should scare you


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#31    Br Cornelius

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 07:31 PM

View PostDoug1o29, on 01 August 2012 - 02:06 PM, said:


In our case, fracking had nothing to do with our flammable water.  I have to wonder how many of those claims can actually be traced to fracking.
Doug

You are accusing people of lying here. I accept that methane in wells at low concentrations is not unknown - but the reports we are discussing are directly correlated to fracking events. They are lay people giving anecdotal accounts but I think it is unreasonable to accuse them of lying.

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#32    Ashotep

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 11:25 PM

View PostDoug1o29, on 01 August 2012 - 02:06 PM, said:

When I was a kid, we depended on a well for our water supply.  Our "water well" turned out to be a gas well as we had unwittingly drilled into a gas pocket.  We, too, could light our water on fire.  There wasn't enough gas to produce a sustained flame, but we could get a "pop" out of it.  At that time, there were no gas or oil wells anywhere in the county.

A neighbor of ours got gas when he drilled a water well.  There wasn't much water, so he never used it.  He put a board over the hole to keep animals and people from falling in.  Us kids would take the board off and throw a match in - made a woinderful "boom."

Another neighbor attempted to "frack" his water well to increase the water yield.  He used dynamite to shatter the casing.  All he got was a broken casing and a well that couldn't be re-drilled because of broken pieces of casing blocking the well.

In our case, fracking had nothing to do with our flammable water.  I have to wonder how many of those claims can actually be traced to fracking.
Doug
I don't doubt there are cases like you mentioned, drill a hole and get both water and gas but it seems its a lot worse around areas where there is fracking plus their wells are getting chemicals in it, not to mention the earthquakes.


#33    MID

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Posted 12 August 2012 - 11:52 PM

Just wondering:


Is everyone afraid of fracking by now?

:w00t:


#34    Ashotep

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 01:14 AM

You should be.


#35    Babe Ruth

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 12:10 PM

I'm glad they are not doing it in Florida.


#36    Br Cornelius

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 12:53 PM

We are fighting to prevent it here in Ireland.
The public is overwhelmingly against it - but the civil service is in favour.

This may eventually bring down a shaky government here.

Br Cornelius

I believe nothing, but I have my suspicions.

Robert Anton Wilson

#37    Doug1o29

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 01:01 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 01 August 2012 - 07:31 PM, said:

You are accusing people of lying here. I accept that methane in wells at low concentrations is not unknown - but the reports we are discussing are directly correlated to fracking events. They are lay people giving anecdotal accounts but I think it is unreasonable to accuse them of lying.

Br Cornelius
I'm not accusing anyone of deliberately lying, but in areas where there is gas, it is very easy to drill into a gas pocket you didn't even know about - the driller did that when he drilled my Dad's water well.

Another issue with fracking is establishing legal responsibility.  Rarely does one well stand alone; there are whole fields of wells.  Which one contaminated your water?  How do you prove it was that one and not one owned by somebody else?  How does the judge decide if you're suing an innocent victim?

You want to know what chemicals are in use in such-and-such company's mix?  It should be pretty easy to find a sample once the fracking crew moves on - stuff gets spilled; just scoop it up.  Fracking crews aren't all that dedicated to their employers, anyway - fracking has a high personnel turnover.  It shouldn't be too hard to find a disgruntled employee who will get you a sample.  Then test it and find out what's in it.  Do this with three or four or twenty different companies.  Then you won't have to resort to speculation and inuendo about what's in the mix.

AND:  the reports I've seen have usually ascribed "fracking earthquakes" to the use of injection wells, which are usually shallower than production wells.  Apparently, the high pressure used in injection forces water into faults, lubricating them and allowing the release of naturally-occurring stresses.  But not all injection wells have associated earthquakes - there is no harm injecting fluids into a well that doesn't produce quakes.

So what does this mean?  Outlawing fracking will not solve the earthquake problem.


Why do I favor the use of natural gas as a "bridge?"  Because it will take quite awhile to get enough wind power on line to switch the economy over.  AND:  you can't just turn the system off when the wind isn't blowing.  You have to generate a base load.  The only two feasible sources for that are nuclear and gas.  Oil is too expensive and coal is too polluting.  It takes hours to days to start up a nuclear plant, but gas is available in seconds - there's no problem with getting the system started - just push the button.

Make no mistake:  gas is only a temporary fix.  If we don't convert to wind/solar, gas will become the problem.  We need to switch ASAP.  Far from being expensive, wind is already cheaper than coal and oil and the costs are comparable to gas.  It will save the consumer money.
Doug

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#38    Doug1o29

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 01:16 PM

View PostHilander, on 07 August 2012 - 11:25 PM, said:

I don't doubt there are cases like you mentioned, drill a hole and get both water and gas
Wells yield whatever is down there.  If there's gas, there's usually oil, too.  And there's always water.  There are three wells on my neighbor's place in Ohio - I leased non-drilling rights on my place to the gas company.  One of those wells has so much water in it they can't economically extract the gas - might as well be a dry hole.  Problem is the pressure down at 15,000 feet:  it holds the gas in sollution.  If we could release the pressure, we could extract the gas.  I keep wondering why they don't just drop a jet pump nozzle down the hole and get on with it.  Right now, gas prices are quite low, so it may be nothing more than economics.  Or, it might be that that's a four-inch hole; at best, you could run a one-inch extraction line and pushing water up 15,000 feet of one-inch line is going to take a mighty big pump.  Then, too, left over drilling mud may clog the pump.  There is a large commercial line running within feet of the wells:  but it carries 700 pounds of pressure.  To get the gas from a low-pressure well to a high-pressure line requires compressing it - and that means burning some to run a compressor.  There's no free lunch.
Doug

If I have seen farther than other men, it is because I stood on the shoulders of giants. --Bernard de Chartres
The beginning of knowledge is the realization that one doesn't and cannot know everything.
Science is the father of knowledge, but opinion breeds ignorance. --Hippocrates
Ignorance is not an opinion. --Adam Scott

#39    Br Cornelius

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 01:19 PM

The Duke university study showing gas well increased water well contamination;

"Methane concentrations were detected generally in 51 of 60 drinking-water wells (85%) across the region, regardless of gas industry operations, but concentrations were substantially higher closer to natural-gas wells "

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3100993/

There is also widely available industry derived data which show that almost all well casing leak over the lifetime of a well - that is to say age related failure of well casings leading to aquifer contamination is endemic to the industry.

This is why it has been calculated that accidental methane leakage contributes as much or more to climate change as burning coal.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius, 13 August 2012 - 01:22 PM.

I believe nothing, but I have my suspicions.

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#40    Doug1o29

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 01:25 PM

View PostDoug1o29, on 13 August 2012 - 01:16 PM, said:

Wells yield whatever is down there.  If there's gas, there's usually oil, too.  And there's always water.  There are three wells on my neighbor's place in Ohio - I leased non-drilling rights on my place to the gas company.  One of those wells has so much water in it they can't economically extract the gas - might as well be a dry hole.  Problem is the pressure down at 15,000 feet:  it holds the gas in sollution.  If we could release the pressure, we could extract the gas.  I keep wondering why they don't just drop a jet pump nozzle down the hole and get on with it.  Right now, gas prices are quite low, so it may be nothing more than economics.  Or, it might be that that's a four-inch hole; at best, you could run a one-inch extraction line and pushing water up 15,000 feet of one-inch line is going to take a mighty big pump.  Then, too, left over drilling mud may clog the pump.  There is a large commercial line running within feet of the wells:  but it carries 700 pounds of pressure.  To get the gas from a low-pressure well to a high-pressure line requires compressing it - and that means burning some to run a compressor.  There's no free lunch.
Doug

P.S.:  We just had another rig blow up.  Second one this year.  Nobody killed - minor injuries.

Maybe you've heard the news accounts of the fires we've been having in Oklahoma lately.  We just had a big one over by Glencoe - burned down one-third of the town.  Lots of people thought they didn't have fire insurance.  Then they discovered it was started by a welder on a gas well whose boss had threatened to fire him if he didn't ignor the fire ban and start welding right now.  The gas company is just writing big checks and trying to hush it up.  So I guess they had insurance - the gas company's.
Doug


If I have seen farther than other men, it is because I stood on the shoulders of giants. --Bernard de Chartres
The beginning of knowledge is the realization that one doesn't and cannot know everything.
Science is the father of knowledge, but opinion breeds ignorance. --Hippocrates
Ignorance is not an opinion. --Adam Scott

#41    MID

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 08:36 PM

View PostHilander, on 13 August 2012 - 01:14 AM, said:

You should be.

I shouldn't be anything anyone else tells me.  Not afraid, not anything else.
Alarmist nonsense doesn't sway me (or I'd have jumped off the roof in a drunken stupor on 12-31-99...just before the world's computers failed, the MAC machines all went black, all the money dissapeared, and airplanes started falling out of the sky spontaneously!

:su :td: :td:

Edited by MID, 13 August 2012 - 08:37 PM.


#42    Ashotep

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 08:58 PM

View PostMID, on 13 August 2012 - 08:36 PM, said:

I shouldn't be anything anyone else tells me.  Not afraid, not anything else.
Alarmist nonsense doesn't sway me (or I'd have jumped off the roof in a drunken stupor on 12-31-99...just before the world's computers failed, the MAC machines all went black, all the money dissapeared, and airplanes started falling out of the sky spontaneously!

:su :td: :td:
I'm not talking about stupid nonsense like airplanes falling out of the sky.  I'm talking about oil companies fracturing rock so gas and the chemicals they used to achieve this polluting water wells possibly causing earthquakes and making people sick.


#43    MID

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 09:13 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 13 August 2012 - 01:19 PM, said:

This is why it has been calculated that accidental methane leakage contributes as much or more to climate change as burning coal.

Br Cornelius

That was the theme of a "Scientific American" feature article several years back, where some economics major in some  Ivy League school claimed that Cow Farts contributed to global warming. ( It's the methane, stupid!) Bovine flatulence contributes to global warming, therefore: we had to stop raising cattle for meat, and McDonalds and burger joints were bad!  I wondered, just prior to cancelling my subscription to this magazine, what the impact would be on those fantastic BBQ places in Texas I've eaten many a joyous meal of brisket and beans at.

Then again, I became, on occassion, contributory to the methane concentration ih Houston and Dallas, so I guess I just didn't get it! :clap: :tsu: :yes:


#44    MID

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 09:22 PM

View PostHilander, on 13 August 2012 - 08:58 PM, said:

I'm not talking about stupid nonsense like airplanes falling out of the sky.  I'm talking about oil companies fracturing rock so gas and the chemicals they used to achieve this polluting water wells possibly causing earthquakes and making people sick.

Sure!

But I was talking about it, and about being afraid of stuff (I guess you missed that).  The relation between beleiving all of the 2000 stuff, and being afraid of a process that has been used to imprtove weater well production for a loooong time is the same sort of thing.

And furthermore, it was you who said I should be afraid of it!

I told you you that you don't tell me what to be afraid of.

Indeed.  Allow me to tell you:


You be as afraid of this crap as you want to be.  Sweat over it in its vast and terrifying frequency.  Preach doom, and think about it alot.
It'll come to you!

Personally, I have better  things to concern myself with than your insistence that I fear fracking (? :blush: ?).
It's pointless fear mongering, toward someone who knows better.


Thanks for your time.
Better prepare for that stuff while you still can.


#45    MID

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 09:25 PM

Frankly, (and I know you wn't respond to this because you can't), people like you and Br. Cornelius scare me alot more than fracking  should...or does.
There are probably more than five reasons for this.





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