12 replies to this topic

[Ben Masada]

THE FALLACY OF LITERAL INTERPRETATION

Dear Ben,

I would like to review my former beliefs about the Trinity but I need to understand if Genesis 1:26 means anything different from what so many Christians see as an evidence for the Trinity. Here's what it says: "Then, God said: Let us make man in our image, after our likeness, and let them have dominion over... all other things." You got the idea. Would you be so kind as to share with me the Jewish view?

I am more than happy to oblige. The fallacious literal interpretation of this text, not only mutilates Grammar but also introduces a contradiction into the Torah. But let us star with a simile. A Professor is delivering a lecture. Suddenly he says: "Every one on the left side of the room is supposed to stay, and every one else are supposed to leave." Where is he right and where is he wrong as far as Grammar is concerned? I hope you have chosen the first premise where he says, "Every one IS supposed to stay" as the correct one, and the second premise where he says, "Every one ARE supposed to leave" as the wrong one. The predicative has to agree with the subject to be grammatically correct. Now, let us return to the text in Genesis 1:26 above.

Where is the grammatical mistake, isn't man here a reference to Mankind? Yes, "man" here is indeed a reference to Mankind, but "them," likewise, to be a reference to Mankind, it had to be "he" and not them. Why? Take Exodus 4:22,23 for instance. When God said to Pharaoh, "Israel is My son; so let My son go that he may serve Me," Israel was meant as the People. Nevertheless, the singular "son," and not sons, is used, as, likewise, the pronoun "he" and not they is used.

Therefore, "man" is a reference to Mankind and "them" is a reference to God's attributes. Several of them which were granted to man so that God would execute dominion over the world through man. IWO, God would share with man the control of the world. Then, it is possible to speak of God and His attributes in the same line because in God,
they are part of His essence, while in us, they are Divine grantings.

Now, for the contradiction. The plurality of terms which, supposedly, many people refer them to God, as in, "Let US make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness..." they are rather references to the attributes of God and not to God Himself, as God has neither an image nor likeness to anything we can imagine. (Deut. 4:15,16 and Isa. 46:5)

Well, an explanation a little too long, I admit, but I hope that everything is clear now.

Ben

[Armchair Educated]

you always get too literal and concentrate on one setence when talking about the new testament but now you saying we shouldnt argue like that.

Edited by Ever Learning, 30 July 2012 - 08:33 PM.

[Ben Masada]

Ever Learning, on 30 July 2012 - 08:33 PM, said:

you always get too literal and concentrate on one setence when talking about the new testament but now you saying we shouldnt argue like that.

If there is something I am not, is a member of the literal interpretation club. I am so much in favor of metaphorical interpretation of the Scriptures that my own fellow Jews have raised their eyebrows agaist me, not only in forums but also here on a face-to-face dealing with each other. BTW, what in this thread has given you the impression that I am being literal? Care to remind me?

Ben

Edited by Ben Masada, 02 August 2012 - 08:25 PM.

[J. K.]

Ben Masada, on 30 July 2012 - 06:51 PM, said:

Now, for the contradiction. The plurality of terms which, supposedly, many people refer them to God, as in, "Let US make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness..." they are rather references to the attributes of God and not to God Himself, as God has neither an image nor likeness to anything we can imagine. (Deut. 4:15,16 and Isa. 46:5)

I must say that I don't comprehend how you arrived at this conclusion.  (To begin with, given that the question is about the 'trinity' aspect of God, I'm unsure why you spent time discussing the grammatical intent of man/mankind.)  I definitely don't see how you can take personal pronouns and make them indicative of something other than the speaker of the sentence.

[Realm]

Ben Masada, on 30 July 2012 - 06:51 PM, said:

God has neither an image nor likeness to anything we can imagine. (Deut. 4:15,16 and Isa. 46:5)

Ben

Job_19:25
For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:

Isa_47:4
As for our redeemer, the LORD of hosts is his name, the Holy One of Israel.

Isa 52:6
Therefore my people shall know my name: therefore they shall know in that day that I am he that doth speak: behold, it is I.

Literal translation or Ben Masada translation?

[Submitter]

Hi
Is it because the bible has contradictions and errors in it that you do not have the luxury to take it literally ?

[Ben Masada]

J. K., on 07 August 2012 - 01:12 AM, said:

I must say that I don't comprehend how you arrived at this conclusion.  (To begin with, given that the question is about the 'trinity' aspect of God, I'm unsure why you spent time discussing the grammatical intent of man/mankind.)  I definitely don't see how you can take personal pronouns and make them indicative of something other than the speaker of the sentence.

Theological research is what has helped me arrive at this conclusion, with a booster from Logic. The question is rather against the idea of a trinity aspect in God Who is absolutely One. Now, with regards to man/mankind, I find the text quite clear.

Ben

Edited by Ben Masada, 10 August 2012 - 07:30 PM.

[Ben Masada]

Realm, on 07 August 2012 - 04:38 AM, said:

Job_19:25 - For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:

Isa_47:4 - As for our redeemer, the LORD of hosts is his name, the Holy One of Israel.

Isa 52:6 - Therefore my people shall know my name: therefore they shall know in that day that I am he that doth speak: behold, it is I.

Literal translation or Ben Masada translation?

Neither. Metaphorical translation. Nothing of the above indicates anthropomorphism in God. Why don't you tell me what is your opinion about those texts above and we will have a better margin on how to comment about them.

Ben

Edited by Ben Masada, 10 August 2012 - 07:40 PM.

[Ben Masada]

Submitter, on 09 August 2012 - 12:58 AM, said:

Hi
Is it because the bible has contradictions and errors in it that you do not have the luxury to take it literally ?

Not contradictions and errors, as these are only in the eyes of the untrained to understand in the metaphorical realm of reality. They are the ones who produce the contradictions and erros.

Ben

[Submitter]

Ben Masada, on 10 August 2012 - 07:44 PM, said:

Not contradictions and errors, as these are only in the eyes of the untrained to understand in the metaphorical realm of reality. They are the ones who produce the contradictions and erros.

Ben

Hi Ben

I think training is needed to ignore the errors and contradictions. Ignore it for long enough you get what you wish for and God closes your heart to the truth.

When Abraham put a teenager Ismael pbut on Hagar's shoulders, this was not an error ?

When Abraham put a teenager Ismael pbuh under a bush and left him there crying this was not an error ?

When the bible states that Abraham sacrificed his first born Isaac when his first born was Ismael pbut ?

Judas commits suicide in one gospel and has an accident in another gospel. This is not a contradiction ?

What should have been one of the most dramatic and documented events of history the public execution of a prophet and there is confusion over what actually happened and Jesus pbuh last words. A major event like an earth quake and only one scribe though to mention it. This scribe dishonestly linked his writings to Matthew to try to give them some credibility.

Jesus pbuh warned us about the scribes and how they would lead people astray. Unfortunately his words been heeded.

But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from people; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.
Matthew 23:13

Don't let the scribes shut you out of heaven.

[Ben Masada]

Submitter, on 11 August 2012 - 02:47 AM, said:

Hi Ben

Quote

I think training is needed to ignore the errors and contradictions. Ignore it for long enough you get what you wish for and God closes your heart to the truth.

God closes no one's heart. We are the ones who close our own hearts to the truth when we prefer to go according to our preconceived notions.

Quote

When Abraham put a teenager Ismael pbut on Hagar's shoulders, this was not an error?

What is this "pbut" which you repeat in almost every sentence?  And for Abraham, perhaps, it was an error because he was acting under the spell of love. He loved Sarah more than he did Ishmael. It was either him or her. He chose her.

Quote

When Abraham put a teenager Ismael pbuh under a bush and left him there crying this was not an error?

He didn't. Hagar was the one who did it to her own son.  Read Genesis 21:15.

Quote

When the bible states that Abraham sacrificed his first born Isaac when his first born was Ismael pbut?

He didn't. According to Judaism, that's not known as the sacrifice of Isaac but the binding of Isaac. It means that Isaac was not sacrificed. Which in fact, he was not. Besides, that test of Abraham by God was not literal but it occurred during a dream/vision. Abraham was a prophet, and that's how God would make Himself known to the prophets of Israel. Read Numbers 12:6.

Quote

Judas commits suicide in one gospel and has an accident in another gospel. This is not a contradiction?

Yes, it is; and there are many more where that one comes from.

Quote

What should have been one of the most dramatic and documented events of history the public execution of a prophet and there is confusion over what actually happened and Jesus pbuh last words. A major event like an earth quake and only one scribe though to mention it. This scribe dishonestly linked his writings to Matthew to try to give them some credibility.

Sorry, but I don't know what you are talking about. Perhaps if you quoted your assertions I would have a thing or two to enlighten you with.

Quote

Jesus pbuh warned us about the scribes and how they would lead people astray. Unfortunately his words been heeded.

You have got to quote if you want me to understand what you are talking about.

Quote

But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from people; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in. Matthew 23:13.

Finally, we are in business. Tell me, would you like to be called a hypocrite? I don't think so. Do you thing that the scribes and Pharisees liked to be addressed to as hypocrites. No, they didn't. In that case, Jesus broke the Golden Rule of not to do unto others what we would not like they did unto us. Therefore, Jesus was a sinner. What do you say, did that happen or it was only an interpolation by the hellenist who wrote the gospel of Matthew? Now, with regards to the kingdom of heaven, Jesus himself, in Luke 17:21, said that it is not a place to enter into but a spiritual condition within each one of us. So, definitely, Mat. 23:13 was either an interpolation or a contradiction.

Quote

Don't let the scribes shut you out of heaven.

They couldn't shut something that does not exist in reality but as a concept within our own nature. (Luke 17:21)

Ben

[Jackofalltrades]

If You read the previous verses before You will see that that verse alone does not give evidence for there being a trinity and as far as I am aware no where else in the Bible does either

Genesis 1 24/27

²⁴ And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

²⁵ And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

²⁶ And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

²⁷ So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Whos is to say whether or not God was talking to somebody else, just because God used "our" instead of something like My or the equivalent

Personally I do not see how that equates to there being a trinity

[Ben Masada]

Jackofalltrades, on 18 August 2012 - 08:22 PM, said:

If You read the previous verses before You will see that that verse alone does not give evidence for there being a trinity and as far as I am aware no where else in the Bible does either

Genesis 1 24/27

²⁴ And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

²⁵ And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

²⁶ And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

²⁷ So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Whos is to say whether or not God was talking to somebody else, just because God used "our" instead of something like My or the equivalent

Personally I do not see how that equates to there being a trinity

Many Christians have tried to prove the Trinity to me by quoting Genesis 1:26. That's the fallacy I have brough out  to the attencion of the posters in this forum. I am glad that you, like me, don't see any hint or indication to trinity in the Jewish Scriptures. Indeed, there is none.

Ben