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Evolution Vs. Creationism


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#1    JesusFreakGS

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Posted 05 August 2001 - 12:03 AM

Okay, I am not trying to start a debate here. I will try my best not to argue if someone replies and disagrees with me. This is only something interesting I read in a book that I am sharing with you. Okay, here goes. It's called the Anthropological Arguement. I found it in the book Letters From A Skeptic by Dr. Gregory A. Boyd and Edward K. Boyd. This is the jist of it: We humans live in an environment that suits our basic needs. We are hungry, and there is food. We are thirsty, and there is water. We are tired, and there is the ability to sleep. The reason our needs are fulfilled is because whatever created us, whether it be evolution or God, understood those needs to be able to provide for them. Now, of course evolution or the big bang or nature itself would understand those needs, because nature has those needs also. We got that far. But that environment also has to be able to provide for our needs as far as our personhood goes. We are people: that means we have the ability to be happy, be sad, love, and to hate. We have the ability to form morals and ethics. Now, whatever created us would have to able to suit those needs also. Evolution and random natural occurrences don't have the ability to be happy, be sad, love, or to hate. They don't have morals or ethics. Therefore, they don't understand those needs. Only a personal, loving force could have created us. No random occurrence could have created us, because then we would be outrunning nature itself by having personhood. The effect cannot outrun the cause. What do you all think?


#2    reese92

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Posted 05 August 2001 - 12:25 AM

We are hungry, and there is food. We are thirsty, and there is water. We are tired, and there is the ability to sleep. The reason our needs are fulfilled is because whatever created us, whether it be evolution or God, understood those needs to be able to provide for them.


The above is one of your statements.  My only problem with it is as follows.
 What place do you live that you think it is so easy as to just be hungry and someone would be fed?  I see alot of hungry people everyday.  I even see thirsty people everyday.  What of them?  Are they somehow excluded from these basic things because of something they have done?  Or do you even think that it is possible that life sometimes throws curve balls at certain people, to which they just cannot recover?  I would really like to know, because, it seems to me, that they are forgotten, even by such a holy person as yourself.  People die every day, from lack of the basic staples that we all need in order to live.  What are your thoughts on that?

        Reese  :-*


#3    JesusFreakGS

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Posted 05 August 2001 - 01:06 AM

Thanks for your response. When I made that statement, I was speaking generally. Look at our environment in a wide perspective. We are hungry, and there is food: I meant that we are biological life forms that need food to survive. The environment provides food: vegetation, fruits, animals, and grains. When I said "there is food" I meant just that... there is food in our environment for us to eat. I did not say "there is food for everyone." I merely meant that the environment has the capability to provide those things for us. I understand what you mean, and I just want to clear that up for you. :)
                      Adam


#4    JesusFreakGS

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Posted 05 August 2001 - 01:13 AM

Oh, and I did not forget about poverty in the world. I am very much aware of the fact that people go hungry every single day. I feel very sorry for them, as you all probably do also. Life didn't throw them a curve ball, it's just that any sort of reality is going to have poverty of some sorts... which is sad because, if one believes the Bible, then life would have been perfect if humans had made the choice to do good, not evil.
                                     Adam


#5    Guest_Guest_*

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Posted 05 August 2001 - 06:19 AM

Ok, I understand, but also I must add, that I think that it is that life throws a curve ball, when you actually go out in the world and find out how hard it really is too just live, then you will realize that.  Not to be harsh with you at all, I am not, just the way it is.  A person can not help but to be simply born into the life of which they are born.  Among wars, or just an impoverished enviroment.  I don't really feel sorry for the people that don't have enough to eat.  I feel sorry for the people that feel sorry for them;  I think they deserve a certain level of respect, even more than the average person.  To be hungry, is probably the worst torture that anyone can go through, since, as you say, it is all something that we are born to do.
 I was raised Catholic, I have made that known before, and I found alot of flaws with any sort of 'organized' religion.  I would like to hope that there is a God out there, but, any God that I imagine them to be, would surely not care whether a person was born into a situation, or even found themselves in a situation that they couldn't rise above.  I have seen many people put atleast 10% or more into the church, every week.  Surely God would not want people to do that, just so their church was the fanciest on the block, or to be sure that the priest had freshly pressed silk robes to wear to each Mass.  My 'higher power' doesn't care if I am alone when I pray, and surely doesn't care if the homeless person next to me made some bad decisions.  We all do.

         Reese :-*


#6    JesusFreakGS

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Posted 05 August 2001 - 08:07 PM

Well I must say that you make a good point, Teresa. I am beginning to realize why feeling sorry for the people who are just in the wrong situation in life really isn't the only way to treat them. They do deserve much respect for having to go through that. And about "organized religion"... I understand that many religions out there put up a stereotypical, hypocritical picture of themselves by being formal and all that. But not all "religions" are like that. Christianity, for example, isn't a religion, it's a relationship. It's as simple as that, and there is no need for all that junk that you mentioned is part of the Catholic church. Now, I don't understand how the points you mentioned have anything to do with what I originally said. In my view, the Anthropoligical Arguement makes a good point about God's existence... now, it's up to you to decide whether or not you give him the love he deserves... maybe in your view a God shouldn't deserve anything from us because of the things that he lets happen... if that is the case, I urge you to find Letters From A Skeptic by Dr. Gregory A. Boyd and Edward K. Boyd... it has some info dealing with why an All-Powerful God would let bad tings happen and such. But, if any of you can, could you please respond to the points I made in the original thread? Thanks!  :)
                                  Adam


#7    reese92

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Posted 06 August 2001 - 03:54 AM

That is very nice of you, to think of them as actual people, with feelings..  I am glad that you got my point.
 I am not quite sure if you were getting sassy with that post, so I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you weren't.  But as to loving God, and thinking that he deserves my love, you leave that up to me, you holy roller, you!! :-*
 Honestly, the way you described it too me, I can live with that, and I think you have a very good outlook on it.. I wish that more people would form their own opinions, I respect you for that.  You are very wise, to be but 14.  But, you shouldn't get so defensive about religion.  I get jumped all the time, because I have my own beliefs, and I certainly wasn't jumping you, sorry if I came across like so.  I allow everyone their own beliefs, and I expect the same in return.  Know where I am coming from?  Well take care.

         Reese


#8    JesusFreakGS

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Posted 06 August 2001 - 05:43 AM

Thank you for the compliments lol. Sorry if I seemed a bit defensive... I am really used to defending my faith against older people, and I guess I should try to lighten up lol. Well, all the best!  :)
          Adam


#9    Homer

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Posted 06 August 2001 - 06:38 AM

Adam

You are walking on ice with this thread, and warned anything resembling a religious nature could provoke undesirable debates(ARGUMENTS), which doesn't belong in a forum like this, and could be considered offensive by others. But you stated: "The reason our needs are fulfilled is because whatever created us, whether it be evolution or God, understood those needs to be able to provide for them".

Perhaps humans, like animals, ADAPTED to their environment. Just a thought.

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#10    JesusFreakGS

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Posted 06 August 2001 - 04:15 PM

Adapting into something that not even Nature itself could be? That seems a little strange... the effect can't outrun the cause.
                       Adam


#11    Homer

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Posted 06 August 2001 - 06:03 PM

Adam,

That is not what I meant. It's accepted by religious and non religious people that nature(jungle,deserts,forests,etc, plants and animals) were here before humans. So when humans arrived, and the debate whether it's creation or evolution is irrelevant with this, humans had to ADAPT to their respective environments. Those that didn't simply perished. As the Earth ages, it's environment changes, and as the environment changes, all that dwell on the Earth must either move to a more desirable location(prolonging the inevitable) or adapt to new environmental conditions. To not due this is to perish as a species. Nature is cruel, and only the strong and smart will survive. Take care Adam.

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#12    Lori Cordini

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Posted 12 August 2001 - 09:34 PM

Consider the lilies of the field....one of my favorite biblical support verses!

The creation of ALL by ALL allows for ALL to exist.
Creation is change in motion...the body of a human is born, it dies, molecularly there are changes all the time in creation.  CHANGE IS CREATION IN MOTION. There is nothing bad, nothing good in the process...it just keeps on going...cause and effect, ebb/flow and so on.  Humans evolved and were genetically engineered to house a soul-entity and this is where, I believe, the confusion began.

Religion has for the most part slipped away from the universal pattern of the Creator and fallen into uses and abuses, political controls and laws that made by those who would use the spiritual quests of its followers for their own greed.

In many cases religion has nothing to do with God.  But, those who still see religion as a path to understanding their spirituality and ascension on the soul-level.  Understanding who we are as humans, animals who are part of the natural ever-changing scheme of things as well as soul-entities who are also evolving but on a path of ascension.
Think of it this way.  From the moment of conception and birth the human container is deteriorating, continuing on the molecular level of change...it is changing, but on a deteriorating level, while the soul-entity does not "change" per se, but ascends without the limitations of time, space or molecular changing.  It is essentially the energy of creation itself, a constant!

The soul-entity is truly birthed when its container, is mother--its birthing agent--dies.



Is this clearly stated?

-lori  :)


#13    Jamie

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Posted 21 August 2001 - 11:50 PM

I do not believe in creation, but that is because I am Athiest.  I do believe in evolution.  I think everything evolved from something.  I dont think that one day or six or whatever it was God pulled out a magic wand and poof there are humans and the poof there is land and poof there are animals.  That thought to me is quite rediculous.

Jamie


#14    JesusFreakGS

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Posted 22 August 2001 - 12:32 AM

Well, I typed this nice long reply to your post, but then I deleted it because I knew there is no need for it and I'd just get yelled at for it. I only ask one thing: How does your view of "everything has evolved from something else" stand up against the Anthropoligical Argument in my original thread?

                              Adam

                       


#15    Jamie

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Posted 22 August 2001 - 12:52 AM

How does it stand up??  Well the fact that I DONT BELIEVE IN GOD might be how.  If I dont beleive in something how can it be???  Why dont you answer that.  Instinct is also something we were evolved into having.  The fact that a person knows they are hungry and therefore they eat means absolutely nothing to me to prove that God made it that way. And what your saying about whatever created us must have morals and ethics just like us that also means if we look at it in your point of view that he is barbaric.  He allows there to be starving people all over the world and by him giving them the  hunger and thirst and letting there not be enough food or money he is torturing them.  Now that sure sounds like a good guy to me.  Can I be a follower please please please.  





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