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Evolution Vs. Creationism


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#886    The Proposer

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Posted 15 April 2004 - 01:26 PM

Morpheous who do you think we are,we are not professors of creation,search for and dip into the Srimad-Bhagavatam,those writers were much more knowlegeable and authentic,if you prefer my faulty theory,s my morals will not allow me to impart them.


#887    The Proposer

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Posted 15 April 2004 - 01:28 PM

QUOTE (Nethius @ Apr 14 2004, 10:35 PM)
QUOTE (Venomshocker @ Apr 14 2004, 09:31 PM)
Hey snog44 and anybody else who would like to answer, Im really curious, what would qualify as proof of a God or a creator? Would you need absoloute proof, or would strong evidence suffice?  rolleyes.gif

what proof, or strong evidence can you provide?

so far all i have seen is...

>>why not

>>i exists therefore god exists

>>i have feelings, therefore god exists

>>the bible says so

>>other religious papers say so

>>and statements claiming evolution to be wrong (which, even if evolution is wrong, this alone does not prove that creation is correct, could mean another possibility)

none of these suffice, atleast not to me...

i'm interested in what you can throw on the table?

you are asking for far more proof than you can provide for evolution


#888    The Proposer

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Posted 15 April 2004 - 01:34 PM

QUOTE (Seraphina @ Apr 15 2004, 02:23 PM)
QUOTE
birds are able to create nests,nests come about via an intelligence.


Clouds sometimes create the shape of recognisable objects; are they intelligent?

A virus, which is not considered a life form, is able to create clones of itself; are they intelligent?

Wind and rain can alter the shape of a land mass, creating a new landscape; are they intelligent?

Your arguement is so ridiculous, I do struggle to get my head round how you consider it a logical one huh.gif A majority of "creation" in nature takes place through natural means, not though the intervention of an organism altering its environment. The fact that your post is created by an intelligence, does not automatically mean that the universe has been tongue.gif

you are deliberately changing the goalposts ther,there is some randomness attatched to cloud formation and land erosion,altho I WOULD SAY THT THESE ARE MATERIALS OF GOD FORMED BY TOOLS OF GOD


#889    PsychicPenguin

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Posted 15 April 2004 - 01:36 PM

QUOTE
you are asking for far more proof than you can provide for evolution


My response is this -> LOL !!!

Basic mechanism of evolution has been proven, and it is just ignorant that they don't exist.

Speciation? We have several examples already. Sure not a lot of them, but they are well documented.

Your claim has been:
This post exists therefore God exists .... a flawed argument.
Vedas say the number of species is set .... there is no single evidence that the Vedas can be taken literaly.


#890    The Proposer

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Posted 15 April 2004 - 01:46 PM

edit; removed unnecessary quote

how can a basic mechanism of a theoretical Idea be proven?and if this mechanism existed who created it?


there is well documented evidence of eyewitness acounts of god.

if you consider God to be a theoretical being then the numerous amount of evidence will not change your mind,Evolution is theoretical,so any so called evidence to back up a theoretical conclusion is suspect.

Edited by Magikman, 16 April 2004 - 02:43 AM.


#891    Seraphina

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Posted 15 April 2004 - 01:47 PM

QUOTE
you are deliberately changing the goalposts ther,


As are you, if you're picking and choosing with "designs" you're willing to include in your assessment. If you're only going to consider creations of intelligent creatures, then you're only going to see what you want to see tongue.gif It's not a scientific methodology, it's trying to convince yourself using a very flimsy method indeed.

If you're going to use design or patterns in nature as your evidence, then you need to use all of them. You can't just pick and choose the ones that suit your arguement (such as it is).

QUOTE
there is some randomness attatched to cloud formation and land erosion,


There is also randomness attached to gene replication, and indeed the creation of absolutely anything. It is this very randomness that gives rise to the theory of natural selection, and thus of evolution.

QUOTE
altho I WOULD SAY THT THESE ARE MATERIALS OF GOD FORMED BY TOOLS OF GOD


If you did, I'd say you were reaching tongue.gif  

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Apparantly, over on Exchristian.Net, they say that I'm "probably the smartest person" on UM....that is so cool...

#892    PsychicPenguin

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Posted 15 April 2004 - 01:49 PM

QUOTE
there is well documented evidence of eyewitness acounts of god.


Which god???  


#893    trublvr

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Posted 15 April 2004 - 05:10 PM


   Hi All,

         When we speak of speciation, are we speaking of the strong or weak definition of species?  From what I understand (science not being my discipline) it goes a little something like this: Strong def. of species: when the original organism evolves into another, and the two are absolutely physically incapable of reproduction.  Weak def. of species: when the original organism evolves into another, and the two are reproductively isolated.  In the first instance, reproduction is utterly impossible.  In the second, well, it's a bit ambiguous.  For example, we say that pigeons and doves are different species, and yet if we artificially inseminated a female pigeon with dove sperm we would get--well, a funny-looking bird (poor dove!).  This has been seen in the rare instances when lions and tigers have mated, producing tigons and ligers.  Now tigers and lions don't normally mate any more than pigeons and dove do.  However, mating is still possible, albeit under strange circumstances.  

          Under the strong definition of what constitutes a species, isn't evolutionary speciation compromised?  

If truth is not a matter of majority vote, neither is it a matter of minority dissent.        

                                                --Douglas Groothius

#894    Nethius

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Posted 15 April 2004 - 05:57 PM

QUOTE (The Proposer @ Apr 15 2004, 02:19 PM)
yes we created computers,they contain memory and there was a bluaprint in the design.you are trying to say slime created us or we somehow morphed from it,can you give a straightforward commomn sense analogy of how this occured.

do you even understand the concept of evolution?  it really seems that you do not, may i suggest you read up on it a bit, then come back?

here are some links to help you along the way

http://members.aol.com/darwinpage/abiogenesis.htm
http://www.resa.net/nasa/origins_life.htm
http://www.talkorigins.org/


#895    WorkMonkey

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Posted 15 April 2004 - 06:00 PM

QUOTE (The Proposer @ Apr 15 2004, 02:46 PM)


there is well documented evidence of eyewitness acounts of god.

Best quote EVER

The Proposer - "there is well documented evidence of eyewitness acounts of god."


BEST QUOTE EVERRRRRRRRR

#896    Nethius

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Posted 15 April 2004 - 06:02 PM

QUOTE (The Proposer @ Apr 15 2004, 02:28 PM)
you are asking for far more proof than you can provide for evolution

i am asking for 1 peice of evidence, there has been tons related to evolution...  i know you only stated posting here in the last few pages, so please go and read the whole topic, and there are many posts with evidence related to evolution, i really dont feel like going through them all for you


#897    The Proposer

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Posted 15 April 2004 - 06:08 PM

QUOTE (Seraphina @ Apr 15 2004, 02:47 PM)
QUOTE
you are deliberately changing the goalposts ther,


As are you, if you're picking and choosing with "designs" you're willing to include in your assessment. If you're only going to consider creations of intelligent creatures, then you're only going to see what you want to see tongue.gif It's not a scientific methodology, it's trying to convince yourself using a very flimsy method indeed.

If you're going to use design or patterns in nature as your evidence, then you need to use all of them. You can't just pick and choose the ones that suit your arguement (such as it is).

QUOTE
there is some randomness attatched to cloud formation and land erosion,


There is also randomness attached to gene replication, and indeed the creation of absolutely anything. It is this very randomness that gives rise to the theory of natural selection, and thus of evolution.

QUOTE
altho I WOULD SAY THT THESE ARE MATERIALS OF GOD FORMED BY TOOLS OF GOD


If you did, I'd say you were reaching tongue.gif

I disagree with this post it is very unscientific and off the mark,of course you can pick and choose,or rather make an educated guess,patterns by the wind are different than an hands on creation,such as a beehive an oil painting or a birds nest.

this is obvous common sense and if you think my analogies (both you and the alien avatar guy)and arguments,are stupid or ridiculous ,state why.it is pointless just saying they are,its the same as me saying God exisists without all the evidence and back up I have given.


#898    The Proposer

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Posted 15 April 2004 - 06:16 PM

QUOTE (PsychicPenguin @ Apr 15 2004, 02:49 PM)
QUOTE
there is well documented evidence of eyewitness acounts of god.


Which god???

Many Many Gods,Plus the Supreme God


Krsna is witnessed by Arjuna in the Vedas
(he is also witnessed by others on many occasions)
Yaweh is witnessed in many books of the Bible,he is witnessed by Moses,by Ezekial,by the tribes in exodus.
Pan has been witnessed.
the avatars and messengers of God Have been witnessed by Many.Caitanya,Buddah,Christ and Mohamed.
The Angels and Messengers have been witnessed by Many ,Joan of Ark,the writers of the book of revelation,Fatima.....................this is only a very small sample list.................Even today people are still witnessing God and his messengers


#899    The Proposer

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Posted 15 April 2004 - 06:31 PM

QUOTE (Nethius @ Apr 15 2004, 06:57 PM)
QUOTE (The Proposer @ Apr 15 2004, 02:19 PM)
yes we created computers,they contain memory and there was a bluaprint in the design.you are trying to say slime created us or we somehow morphed from it,can you give a straightforward commomn sense analogy of how this occured.

do you even understand the concept of evolution?  it really seems that you do not, may i suggest you read up on it a bit, then come back?

here are some links to help you along the way

http://members.aol.com/darwinpage/abiogenesis.htm
http://www.resa.net/nasa/origins_life.htm
http://www.talkorigins.org/

Yes I have already been on those sites and asked them to lay their stall out so we can have a proper discussion,all I ask is they give a concise defination of the theory,as I have done in respect to creation,although im not a professor of creation I am able to direct you to a higher source.

to put it simply if two people wish to dual,then you chose a weapon each,I have had the same weapon from the start,but the pushers of evolution constantly chop and change theres ,thus we constantly go round in pointless circles(are all circles pointless,or are ther an infinite number of points?)

fairness in battle is not much to ask?

mind you I suppose the creationists have God on their side ,so a bit unfair there,maybe another thread should be started,Evolution v species are set,altho this may evolve into a God debate,but hey thats what evolutions all about,unintelligently guided chance,maybe we should just let our fingers dance blindly on the keyboard and if a legible post appears i,ll eat my hat,knowing my luck a legible post will appear and it will be a hat recipe.

dont you think you maybe in denial,denying intelligent design means you are trying to deny a creator,thus justifying breaking rules set out by the creator,is this a deep ulterior motive?


#900    The Proposer

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Posted 15 April 2004 - 06:43 PM

QUOTE (Nethius @ Apr 15 2004, 07:02 PM)
QUOTE (The Proposer @ Apr 15 2004, 02:28 PM)
you are asking for far more proof than you can provide for evolution

i am asking for 1 peice of evidence, there has been tons related to evolution...  i know you only stated posting here in the last few pages, so please go and read the whole topic, and there are many posts with evidence related to evolution, i really dont feel like going through them all for you

It is like being stood in front of an oil painting,I can tell you how the colours were mixed,I can tell you how the artist built up the picture,I can show you the brush strokes,the artist signature and go on ad infinitum ,so what would proof be to you besides the creation being right in front of your eyes?


now take so called science,consider a pattern of Iron filings formed upon a sheet of paper with a magnet hidden behind it,now suppose we have become too narrow minded and we analyse the properties of the filings down to the smallest atomic particle,will this give us an answer to why a pattern is formed?now a child could come along and say "Why are you wasting your time you fools,look there is a magnet behind the paper" he could also tell us to stop going down blind alleys,and inform us ther is a lot of fun to be had from the magnet,and a lot more knowledge to be gained.





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