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Gay Marriage


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#961    Dr. D

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 05:16 PM

View PostKazoo, on 08 September 2012 - 04:53 PM, said:

I did not mean me individuality.  Just because you have some overactive gay pride parade people who don't like you spewing facts the would lead the average bigot to making offensive and unpleasant conclusions and actually giving people more of a reason to dislike them and they are telling you to shuddap dosent mean they are denying anything.

Look at all the facts you shown here.  How do you expect bigots to react to this. With logic and a complex debate on rights vs laws and desires? Of course not. Just more hatred and less logic.

Your not taking politics into the equation properly.

Forgive me, I got lost in the forest of logic.


#962    Supersquatch

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 06:27 PM

View PostMr Walker, on 08 September 2012 - 06:19 AM, said:

Laws on mariage effect everyone in a society. They impact on all aspects of relationships from the silly to the serious For example when spain legalised gay marriage one of the royals who was a lesbian married her partner  as she (the royal) was dying of cancer. Hence we have the first and only dowager royal from a same sex couple

.More seriously marriage sets the paramenters for many laws and outcomes for families and especailly for children. These were originally designed to balamnce the differnces and inequalities between men and women and to provide for the security of women and chilfdren. They just don;t work the same way between same sex couples  Other laws, in many areas from maternity leave to inheritance to taxation regulations, have to be changed to adjust to the new definition of marriage.. That effects everyone, individually and collectively.

The legalization of gay marriage would have the same effect as the legalization of interracial marriage had in the late 1960s. This is about equal rights, and I just don't see why you can't marry whomever or whatever you're in love in with. (As long as the two parties consent, are over eighteen years of age, etc.)

View PostMr Walker, on 08 September 2012 - 06:19 AM, said:

Like all "state" laws, marriage laws serve a purpose of regulation and protection. That is why you cant marry a tree stump or your sister. The state (and in a democracy that means the voters) decide who requires protection and regulation and where individual laws will apply.

How do laws against gay marriage "regulate" or "protect"?

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#963    TheBanana

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 07:34 PM

View PostDr. D, on 08 September 2012 - 02:42 PM, said:

nope, gay people arent always in a "feminine man/manly man" pairing, in a lot of couples, there is no designated "woman" of the pair (and the same for lesbian couples, they often dont have a designated "man"). the equality should go as far as equality does for a man and woman-cause thats what equality is. spirituality exists everywhere, its not just a religious thing, and no religion can lay claim to owning spirituality. there are many people who consider themselves spiritual, but do not affiliate with a specific religion. churches should still have the right to choose who gets married there, they already do, and have every right to refuse couples who dont fit their beliefs. as long as gay people can get married somewhere, it shouldnt matter, as its not as if i could decide to get married in a mosque (whether i was with a man or a woman), because they have a right to say no to a non muslim wanting to get married there, but that doesnt matter because there are loads of other places i could get married.

I appreciate your reply.  I am in agreement concerning the church.  My first point, however, is that considering the uncompromising posture of gay activists, where will the concept of an imagined equality end?

the majority of gay people would be perfectly happy with the same rights straight people have-to be able to get married and recognised legally as a couple, to be able to raise children together, and to be able to talk about their partner in conversation and act like a couple in public (within reason of course, the same kind of things a straight couple would be able to do without people complaining about) without fear of descrimination.

after the law is changed to give gay people equality, gradually the rest of it will fall into place, just like it did when black people wanted their rights, and all the other groups who fought for their equality and right to be who they are in the past.

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#964    Dr. D

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 07:52 PM

View PostTheBanana, on 08 September 2012 - 07:34 PM, said:

the majority of gay people would be perfectly happy with the same rights straight people have-to be able to get married and recognised legally as a couple, to be able to raise children together, and to be able to talk about their partner in conversation and act like a couple in public (within reason of course, the same kind of things a straight couple would be able to do without people complaining about) without fear of descrimination.

after the law is changed to give gay people equality, gradually the rest of it will fall into place, just like it did when black people wanted their rights, and all the other groups who fought for their equality and right to be who they are in the past.

Exactly, just as I posted earlier.  The thing is, however, that this process takes time.  How long did women wait to get the vote?  The true emancipation of blacks took 100 years.  It is a slow and sometimes agonizing process calling not only for legislation but for public adaptation and acceptance.  Some never do.  We still have the KKK.


#965    Kazoo

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 07:57 PM

View PostDr. D, on 08 September 2012 - 07:52 PM, said:

Exactly, just as I posted earlier.  The thing is, however, that this process takes time.  How long did women wait to get the vote?  The true emancipation of blacks took 100 years.  It is a slow and sometimes agonizing process calling not only for legislation but for public adaptation and acceptance.  Some never do.  We still have the KKK.

Because voting rights and slavery from freedom are really similar to giving two people the right to a legal contract.

These comparisons are silly and far fetched.

"The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all." - H.L. Mencken

#966    Hasina

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 08:02 PM

I think D means that it'll take time for society to change it's entire view point about what's 'right' and 'wrong' with these things, why it's right to let people do things and why it's wrong to stop them from doing it. Though I could be wrong.

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#967    Dr. D

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 08:13 PM

View PostKazoo, on 08 September 2012 - 07:57 PM, said:

Because voting rights and slavery from freedom are really similar to giving two people the right to a legal contract.

These comparisons are silly and far fetched.

Only if you choose to believe that a right becomes a reality simply because you want it; that you possess this mystical right that everyone is keeping from you.  Do you think heterosexuals have the “right” to marry?  They do not.  They have legal permission to marry once they comply with the laws and standards governing that institution.  There are prohibitions concerning kinship and age.  Some Mormons still believe they have the “right” to more than one wife but they are denied that privilege by mandates of law. There are blood tests and licenses and a full set of legal obligations agreed to by accepting the ceremony.

Silly and far fetched?  How long will it take for gays to have the right to marry?  They can go to some states to do it, but they have to return there to divorce and their marriage will not be recognized in the vast majority of states.  With a strong conservative presence in Congress, do you really think a vote is soon on the political horizon?  If it happened, how long would the collection of state appeals take?  A hundred years?  Just like black emancipation?   And it’s all far fetched and silly?


#968    Kazoo

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 08:32 PM

View PostDr. D, on 08 September 2012 - 08:13 PM, said:

Only if you choose to believe that a right becomes a reality simply because you want it; that you possess this mystical right that everyone is keeping from you.  Do you think heterosexuals have the “right” to marry?  They do not.  They have legal permission to marry once they comply with the laws and standards governing that institution.  There are prohibitions concerning kinship and age.  Some Mormons still believe they have the “right” to more than one wife but they are denied that privilege by mandates of law. There are blood tests and licenses and a full set of legal obligations agreed to by accepting the ceremony.

Silly and far fetched?  How long will it take for gays to have the right to marry?  They can go to some states to do it, but they have to return there to divorce and their marriage will not be recognized in the vast majority of states.  With a strong conservative presence in Congress, do you really think a vote is soon on the political horizon?  If it happened, how long would the collection of state appeals take?  A hundred years?  Just like black emancipation?   And it’s all far fetched and silly?

Who thinks they have a mythical power to make things magically appear in law? I see you make that assumption alot. No one expects that the worlds just going to make gay marriage within a week. Why do you keep making that assumption? What lead you to the conclusion that all people expect that? No one expects that. I ignored the assumption for awhile but your using it too often now. No one thinks that. Get it out of your head we demand things and expect people to give it to us. Its more then just a law. its a subculture. You can't see pass your silly facts to actually see whats happening. Its more then cause and effects. Its more then just WE WANT THIS. GIVE IT TO US.  

Well yes it is far fetched and silly. Nothing you said really changes that. You are comparing peoples right to be treated as equal citizens to people asking to the right of a contract. Even it takes 100 years which it probably won't it still won't be that hard of a struggle. Time is just time. Only time. Time does not mean people struggled more or less.


I'm not going to debate with you about definitions of the word Law and Right. I am probably using them wrong by the textbook definition but its obvious that in your mind you know exactly which one I mean. And I know exactly which one you mean. So get over the word definitions. I'm not going to argue the semantics with you.

Edited by Kazoo, 08 September 2012 - 08:36 PM.

"The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all." - H.L. Mencken

#969    TrueBeliever

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 08:33 PM

View PostDr. D, on 08 September 2012 - 07:52 PM, said:

Exactly, just as I posted earlier.  The thing is, however, that this process takes time.  How long did women wait to get the vote?  The true emancipation of blacks took 100 years.  It is a slow and sometimes agonizing process calling not only for legislation but for public adaptation and acceptance.  Some never do.  We still have the KKK.

It just seems many christians only want to fight for THEIR interests and rights and cry persecution if you disagree with them. But they will deny and ignore the FACT that their religion, their Bible has been the basis for much bigotry and oppression from womens rights to slavery and now gay marriage it is the CHRISTIANS who have persecuted...but of course it is so taboo to say that...so controversial to tell the truth and demand christians to examine their bad ideas, just as anyone else has to examine and be accountable for their bad ideas...of course christians don't call gay bashing a bad idea.....it is their duty and their doctrine.


#970    Dr. D

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 08:45 PM

View PostTrueBeliever, on 08 September 2012 - 08:33 PM, said:

It just seems many christians only want to fight for THEIR interests and rights and cry persecution if you disagree with them. But they will deny and ignore the FACT that their religion, their Bible has been the basis for much bigotry and oppression from womens rights to slavery and now gay marriage it is the CHRISTIANS who have persecuted...but of course it is so taboo to say that...so controversial to tell the truth and demand christians to examine their bad ideas, just as anyone else has to examine and be accountable for their bad ideas...of course christians don't call gay bashing a bad idea.....it is their duty and their doctrine.

No thinking person can deny that what you say is true.  I don’t think, however, it’s necessarily fair to refer to all Christians any more than they should homogenize all gays.  But I think it’s wise to remember that it is a struggle against 2,000 years of teachings.  Moral standards established and exercised for countless generations cannot be turned off because of the modern phenomena of a gay movement.  The truth is that the church dogma is unchanging, unyielding because to conform to a revolutionary thought defies all prior beliefs.

Pope John Paul had the courage to admit the countless errors of the Catholic Church and that brought some degree of change.  The idea of infallibility was diminished.  To have religion embrace the concept of gay marriage, I predict, will not happen in our lifetimes.


#971    notoverrated

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 08:51 PM

View PostMr Walker, on 08 September 2012 - 08:16 AM, said:

I did 2 years of child psychology as a part of a post graduate  diploma in education. I must say i was not impressed with the academic state of psychology at tha t time. I spent  5 years as a student counsellor for  adolescent students. I read a bit.


My non professional opinion, supported by a lot of writings and evidences, is that this is  a very common need in adolescent females. We are caring for a fifteen year old girl whose father commited suicide when she was about two. She stuggles with this loss and absence every day. She talks about it and tries to understand, but It affects her social and psychological well being. I provide such a role model. Her step father also provides a good one but he has 3 of his own biologicla children in the family which complicates matters.

. But yes. For both males and females, especially from about 10 to mid teens, when awareness of such things is at its highest and influences are most critical, absence of one or the other role models can have very measurable negative effects on a child's emotional and psychological well being.

This time is also critical for children who know, or find out, that they are adopted and can cause real stresses in the adoptive family, which did not appear in younger years.

So it is not the gay nature of the parents, but the absence of strong alternate role models which  is the problem. W e ALL, in terms of physical and social evolution, need male and female role models, preferrably close to us from birth to adulthood, to model, learn from, and adapt to.

A boy has the same need for his mother or a surrogate female figure. But girls tend to be more aware and vocalise their concerns, while boys bottle it up, and then act out in behavioural forms their inner conflicts.
Your little sister sounds like an intelligent, self aawre and articulate person.  It is imortant not to use this issue to drive any wedge between  her and her mother(s) who probably love her and want the best for her. The issue is to find an constructive way to involve a suitable male model in her life  who is accpetable to her and her present caregivers, Are there ANY candidates,  such as uncles or grandfathers, who might be able to do this? In australia there are groups who will help with a mentor of either sex for young people.  There might be similar in your area.

Are there any male teachers with whom she feels comfortable and safe, or sporting coaches etc?

Unless the women have a real problem with maculine/male figures in general, it should be possible to find someone suitable.

Are you able to provide any form of guidance yourself, or is this impractical? ( I am not sure of your own age and life experience)
im 17 and i live in Kansas (i left California where my sister is a couple years ago) so all i do is talk to her on the phone when she needs me and are dad is kinda well... ya, but she is very smart and she plays soft ball but i dont think her coaches are that kind of model to her.

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#972    notoverrated

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 08:53 PM

View PostKazoo, on 08 September 2012 - 04:19 PM, said:

Why do gender roles matter? I don't understand this. It seems sexist. Everyone needs a big strong bacon bringing home man and everyone needs a nice loving stay at home mom?  

If two people are allowed to break these stereotypes in heterosexual couples why can't gay couples do the same?
idk im fine without my dad (just me and my mom for the most part).

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#973    Dr. D

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 08:57 PM

View PostKazoo, on 08 September 2012 - 08:32 PM, said:

Who thinks they have a mythical power to make things magically appear in law? I see you make that assumption alot. No one expects that the worlds just going to make gay marriage within a week. Why do you keep making that assumption? What lead you to the conclusion that all people expect that? No one expects that. I ignored the assumption for awhile but your using it too often now. No one thinks that. Get it out of your head we demand things and expect people to give it to us. Its more then just a law. its a subculture. You can't see pass your silly facts to actually see whats happening. Its more then cause and effects. Its more then just WE WANT THIS. GIVE IT TO US.  

Well yes it is far fetched and silly. Nothing you said really changes that. You are comparing peoples right to be treated as equal citizens to people asking to the right of a contract. Even it takes 100 years which it probably won't it still won't be that hard of a struggle. Time is just time. Only time. Time does not mean people struggled more or less.


I'm not going to debate with you about definitions of the word Law and Right. I am probably using them wrong by the textbook definition but its obvious that in your mind you know exactly which one I mean. And I know exactly which one you mean. So get over the word definitions. I'm not going to argue the semantics with you.

You need to explain your posture to the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force and the Lambda Legal Defense and Educational Fund who were carrying the signs in front of Capitol Hill calling for “Change Now.”  The gay organization Act Up has also called for an immediate change for the legal recognition of “gay rights.”  Maybe you have the insight to recognize that this is not possible but it is not shared by many who share your cause.

You insist that my reference to black liberation is “silly” and if you believe it, it must come from a lack of knowledge about history.  You call marriage a contract and that it has no relationship to the black freedom movement or the civil rights protests of the 60s.  But when did blacks gain the right to marry a white person?  Was that not a contract?  Were they denied to participate in it?  So what’s so silly?

So if it takes a hundred years, it’s okay, right?  Good.  And when that happens the LAW will give gays the RIGHT to marry and have their relationship recognized.  No semantics, just plain logic.


#974    TrueBeliever

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 09:02 PM

View PostDr. D, on 08 September 2012 - 08:45 PM, said:

No thinking person can deny that what you say is true.  I don’t think, however, it’s necessarily fair to refer to all Christians any more than they should homogenize all gays.  But I think it’s wise to remember that it is a struggle against 2,000 years of teachings.  Moral standards established and exercised for countless generations cannot be turned off because of the modern phenomena of a gay movement.  The truth is that the church dogma is unchanging, unyielding because to conform to a revolutionary thought defies all prior beliefs.

Pope John Paul had the courage to admit the countless errors of the Catholic Church and that brought some degree of change.  The idea of infallibility was diminished.  To have religion embrace the concept of gay marriage, I predict, will not happen in our lifetimes.

FYI The term MANY is not synonymous with ALL. So therefore I do not lump all christians together. But it is the christian Bible they all read and admire and worship from......


YES we are fighting  a very long tradition of praising ignorance and barbarity and 'respecting a bunch of very bad ideas. it is my desire to have people respond with reason and common sense and science and logic and to SHUN the religious intolerance and beliefs that have destroyed so many lives. We need people to stand UP, speak UP and not allow anything to be a taboo conversation. So many human beings have suffered and died because no one could stand up to religion without their heads rolling or being burned at the stake.......and people are STILL being bullied into submission. I am asking my fellow humans to speak up for what is right and not be afraid of being bullied. It would take no time at all to fix many things in this world if the good people would just speak up and show support for someone else......because ultimately we are supporting our own rights when we fight for anothers. I ma not trying to simplify all this.....but IMO silence is largely what ails the wortld, not the loud mouthed bigots and racist and homophobes....the good people who utter not a syllable of support for their fellow man because their religion or their sect has dehumanized and demonized their supposed 'enemy'...and although they would like to help THEY will be lumped in with the 'heretic' if they do.


#975    shadowhive

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 09:05 PM

View PostDr. D, on 08 September 2012 - 08:57 PM, said:

You need to explain your posture to the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force and the Lambda Legal Defense and Educational Fund who were carrying the signs in front of Capitol Hill calling for “Change Now.”  The gay organization Act Up has also called for an immediate change for the legal recognition of “gay rights.”  Maybe you have the insight to recognize that this is not possible but it is not shared by many who share your cause.

You insist that my reference to black liberation is “silly” and if you believe it, it must come from a lack of knowledge about history.  You call marriage a contract and that it has no relationship to the black freedom movement or the civil rights protests of the 60s.  But when did blacks gain the right to marry a white person?  Was that not a contract?  Were they denied to participate in it?  So what’s so silly?

So if it takes a hundred years, it’s okay, right?  Good.  And when that happens the LAW will give gays the RIGHT to marry and have their relationship recognized.  No semantics, just plain logic.

The thing I find surprising about your argument is that you seem so surprised that people want change now. Of course they want change now! They want change to happen in their lifetimes so what are they doing? They're trying to make it happen. If they sat at home and waited for change, no change would occur.

Change requires people behind it and those calling for change are calling because they want it to benefit them. Is that so silly? Not really. Other rights movements were filled with people that wanted change in their lifetimes. Is it a high expectation? Sure, but I honestly don't get why you act so surprised that it's one people would have.

So just take off that disguise, everyone knows that you're only, pretty on the outside
We'll just keep on trying till we run out of cake
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