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Roswell: Two Crashes, Not One

roswell coverup

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#31    psyche101

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 12:05 AM

View Postarchernyc, on 06 August 2012 - 03:59 PM, said:

This bit was interesting:


Quote

"They never give you an explanation, but I'll tell you what my analysis of it is: If they accepted the fact that there are creatures coming to Earth from other universes or from wherever, it basically would destroy religions, and the fact that our military's helpless against them would destroy the reputation of the military," French said. "You're talking about military, national defense and religious reasons."



I just do not believe that for a second. It is nonsense. The Vatican has an astronomy contingent and allows for God creating "everything" in the Universe. And the military thing I just do not believe, if a race was smart enough to circumnavigate physics, they would naturally be advanced in weaponry as well, and I do not see how that affects the perception of our own capabilities to defend ourselves. Not like we are in a race, and any such species would have a considerable head start, the benefits they could bring would well outweigh security concerns, which are  pointless anyway. No amount of worrying and fear will change what will be. I think there is a smattering of Gun toting redneck in there to be honest.

Edited by psyche101, 08 August 2012 - 12:06 AM.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. - Sir Isaac Newton Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit. - Ed Stewart Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Dr Who

#32    psyche101

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 12:07 AM

View PostHazzard, on 06 August 2012 - 04:57 PM, said:

I heard as much as five. :td:

The Roswell legend gets sillier for every crash the add,...


Over 600 alleged witnesses as well now don't forget ;)

Which is plainly preposterous.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. - Sir Isaac Newton Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit. - Ed Stewart Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Dr Who

#33    TheMacGuffin

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 12:15 AM

View Postpsyche101, on 08 August 2012 - 12:00 AM, said:

The balloon theory makes a great deal more sense if one takes all the opinions out of it, and just concentrates on the documents from the time frame, I agree and have also shown that the hypothesis put forward cannot be, due to documents from the time frame, but that does not discount balloons, it just changes the parameters. Crareys diary tells the story on that one I feel.


I would go even further and say that there is no real evidence for a balloon crash in that area--ever--although we have a lot of unproven suppositions about it.  

We do know that the UFOs had an interest in White Sands, and that the Army was very interested in them, at least as an air defense problem.  If Kevin Randle is right, then they were thinking about ways of hitting hovering UFOs even back then.

http://kevinrandle.b...y-thirteen.html

Edited by TheMacGuffin, 08 August 2012 - 12:15 AM.


#34    psyche101

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 12:15 AM

View PostTheMacGuffin, on 06 August 2012 - 05:23 PM, said:

In the 1980s Sarbacher confirmed to researchers William Steinman, Stan Freidman,

Stanton Friedman is credited with creating the Roswell aliens, seeing his name in there does not fill one with confidence to be honest.

What I would like to look at is Sarbacher's papers from Project Magnet. Wilbert Smith seems more of a proponent than Sarbacher and claimed Frank Scully's book was accurate, but making claims without backing is a certain way to draw skeptical analysis, which rarely results favourably in the absence of evidence.
But I bet this papers hold some more than interesting experiments and test results.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. - Sir Isaac Newton Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit. - Ed Stewart Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Dr Who

#35    TheMacGuffin

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 12:25 AM

View Postpsyche101, on 08 August 2012 - 12:15 AM, said:

Stanton Friedman is credited with creating the Roswell aliens, seeing his name in there does not fill one with confidence to be honest.

What I would like to look at is Sarbacher's papers from Project Magnet. Wilbert Smith seems more of a proponent than Sarbacher and claimed Frank Scully's book was accurate, but making claims without backing is a certain way to draw skeptical analysis, which rarely results favourably in the absence of evidence.
But I bet this papers hold some more than interesting experiments and test results.

Needless to say, I don't have the same views about Friedman, although I think Leonard Stringfield and Donald Keyhoe were aware of these UFO crash retrievals long before he was.  Even Ed Ruppelt once made that strange comment that there was more truth in Scully's book than most people realized, and that there had been air battles with UFOs as well.

We only have bits and pieces of information about these things, however, not a complete picture.

Wilbert Smith met with Sarbacher, Eric Walker and others involved with the real UFO investigation in 1950, and he was informed about what all these scientists were doing long before any of it became public information.  I have no way of knowing if they knocked one down or what happened, but these scientists did know about UFO wreckage and alien bodies from somewhere by 1950.  We were lucky to get Smith's papers, since these other records may not be available through any kind of normal channels.


#36    TheMacGuffin

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 12:33 AM

We could call this the "Roswell Incident" or something else, although I'm not convinced that is the term the military would have used for it at the time.  As I said, we only know bits and pieces of what was really going on.


#37    psyche101

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 12:38 AM

View PostTheMacGuffin, on 08 August 2012 - 12:15 AM, said:

I would go even further and say that there is no real evidence for a balloon crash in that area--ever--although we have a lot of unproven suppositions about it.  

We do know that the UFOs had an interest in White Sands, and that the Army was very interested in them, at least as an air defense problem.  If Kevin Randle is right, then they were thinking about ways of hitting hovering UFOs even back then.

http://kevinrandle.b...y-thirteen.html

There were definitely balloon crashes, about 3 more of them from memory in the surrounding 48 hours from the Roswell incident. 2 in Circleville and one in South Bloomfield. That's four of the same in 48 hours downwind of Roswell.

I agree with Randle that a committee was likely organised at the time to investigate UFO's as per the Twinning memo.

Thanks to Lost Shaman for the information.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. - Sir Isaac Newton Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit. - Ed Stewart Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Dr Who

#38    TheMacGuffin

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 12:47 AM

View Postpsyche101, on 08 August 2012 - 12:38 AM, said:

Thanks to Lost Shaman for the information.


Other people were aware of this long before he was.  Smith stated that scientists from the Research and Development Board were involved in this early investigation, and we know that Walker and Sarbarcher were two of them.

Another person whose UFO records I'd like to see would be those of Dr. Lincoln LaPaz, since his name seems to come up again and again in the early UFO investigations.


#39    TheMacGuffin

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 12:50 AM

If Sgt. Bill Rickett was correct, Dr. LaPaz told him that an "unmanned interplanetary probe" crashed at Roswell.  Rickett's Roswell testimony often seems to get overlooked, while LaPaz is all but forgotten today, but it does confirm everything Jesse Marcel claimed.


http://www.nicap.org..._on_roswell.htm

"One of the key Roswell witnesses, CIC Master Sgt. Lewis "Bill" Rickett told investigators of the true role of his superior officer, CIC Capt. Sheridan Cavitt, in the 1947 Roswell events. He also visted the crash site and, in September 1947, accompanied Dr. Lincoln LaPaz around New Mexico trying to determine the speed and trajectory of the UFO before it crashed.

As Master Sgt. Lewis "Bill" Rickett and his boss, Capt. Sheridan Cavitt, walked Mack Brazel's field near Corona, N.M., Rickett was concerned whether the site was "hot." Cavitt assured him that there was no evidence of radioactivity.

Rickett, the noncommissioned officer in charge (NCOIC) of the counterintelligence office at Roswell Army Air Field had been on assignment in Carlsbad, N.M., when all the excitement about the recovery of an actual flying saucer began. When he returned to his office the morning of Tuesday, July 8, Cavitt invited him to take a drive north of town. It would take about 45 minutes, he said.

Rickett described what he saw in great detail: There were riflemen stationed on the periphery of the property and another encirclement of guards posted around a small containment of metal-like pieces. The vast majority of the recovery at the Brazel site had already been completed. Cavitt wanted to get Rickett's reaction to the strange material still scattered on the ground.

Rickett found one piece that was about two feet square and appeared to be slightly curved. He then placed it over his extended knee and tried to bend the semi-reflective, paper-thin sheet — the way one might try to bend a supple tree branch. According to Rickett, the material didn't seem to weigh anything.

Somewhat amused by Rickett's inability to warp the sheet, Cavitt said to Maj. Edwin Easley, the 509th Bomb Wing's provost marshal, "Smart guy. He's trying to do what we couldn't." Rickett couldn't believe that a piece of material so thin would not bend. As he and Cavitt drove back to the base, the captain reminded him, "You weren't here and neither was I."

Two months later, in September 1947, Rickett was given another field assignment. He was ordered to assist Manhattan Project scientist Dr. Lincoln La Paz, from the University of New Mexico at Albuquerque. La Paz was a famous meteor expert, as well as a nuclear scientist, and had just arrived at the base in Roswell after being briefed in Washington, D.C. La Paz and Rickett's assignment was to determine the speed and trajectory of the object that impacted north of town.

According to Rickett, he and La Paz discovered a possible touchdown point about five miles northwest of the debris field. Not only did they recover identical material as that which Rickett had handled before, they were startled to find that the sand in the high-desert terrain had crystallized, apparently as a result of exposure to tremendous heat.

They spent a total of three weeks interviewing witnesses and making their calculations, which were contained in La Paz's official report. Rickett never had a chance to see the document, which was delivered directly to the Pentagon. The professor did confide to the plainclothes intelligence specialist that, based on all the physical evidence they'd collected and tested, the original object was an "unmanned interplanetary probe."

Sgt. Rickett continued to search for answers. Unfortunately, his supervising officer, Capt. Cavitt, refused to discuss the matter with him.

One year later, Rickett met once again with Dr. La Paz, this time in Albuquerque. La Paz remained convinced that the object which crashed near Corona, N.M., was from another planet. In all his confidential meetings with various government agencies, he said, he had learned nothing which contradicted that position.

The very next month, while on assignment in Washington, D.C., Rickett met with fellow counterintelligence agent John Wirth. Rickett asked about the status of the materials recovered at Roswell the previous year. According to Wirth, the government's top researchers had yet to identify its metallurgic content and still "hadn't been able to cut it."

One can well imagine Bill Rickett's surprise when, after more than 40 years of silence, he received an evening phone call in 1991 from his former commanding officer.

"Happy birthday, Bill," said the voice on the other end of the phone. "Its 'Cav,' your old boss."

After exchanging niceties, Cavitt queried, "Have you been talking to anyone about what happened back in 1947?" Rickett identified one specific investigator, whom Cavitt knew as well.

"What have you been telling him?" pried Cavitt. "We both know what really happened out there, don't we, Bill?"

"We sure do," Rickett responded.

After a short pause Cavitt snapped back, "Well, maybe someday. Goodbye, Bill."

Lewis "Bill" Rickett, who passed away in October 1993, never heard from Cavitt again."



#40    TheMacGuffin

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 12:54 AM

View Postpsyche101, on 08 August 2012 - 12:38 AM, said:

There were definitely balloon crashes, about 3 more of them from memory in the surrounding 48 hours from the Roswell incident. 2 in Circleville and one in South Bloomfield. That's four of the same in 48 hours downwind of Roswell.


If those were real at all, or had anything to do with Project Mogul, the balloon crashes were over 1,000 miles away from Roswell.

Edited by TheMacGuffin, 08 August 2012 - 12:55 AM.


#41    TheMacGuffin

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 12:58 AM

I've seen a document that looked something like this one, only there were handwritten notations on it about two incidents in New Mexico that were removed from the regular files and classified Top Secret.  There was no mention of the name "Roswell", though.

Posted Image


#42    psyche101

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 01:05 AM

View PostTheMacGuffin, on 08 August 2012 - 12:25 AM, said:

Needless to say, I don't have the same views about Friedman, although I think Leonard Stringfield and Donald Keyhoe were aware of these UFO crash retrievals long before he was.  Even Ed Ruppelt once made that strange comment that there was more truth in Scully's book than most people realized, and that there had been air battles with UFOs as well.

I had guessed as much about Friedman, but I think his latest work with Kathleen Marden illustrates his poor research methods that confirm my suspicions. I guess in a way he is my "Phil Klass" :D

View PostTheMacGuffin, on 08 August 2012 - 12:25 AM, said:

We only have bits and pieces of information about these things, however, not a complete picture.

I agree with that, I tend to try to focus on documents from the time frame.

View PostTheMacGuffin, on 08 August 2012 - 12:25 AM, said:

Wilbert Smith met with Sarbacher, Eric Walker and others involved with the real UFO investigation in 1950, and he was informed about what all these scientists were doing long before any of it became public information.  I have no way of knowing if they knocked one down or what happened, but these scientists did know about UFO wreckage and alien bodies from somewhere by 1950.  We were lucky to get Smith's papers, since these other records may not be available through any kind of normal channels.

Doesn't Sarbarcher claim only reports though? I though he never saw anything first hand, as far as I knew he said he was invited to some such meetings that apparently discussed crashed Flying Saucers, but he personally never attended one.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. - Sir Isaac Newton Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit. - Ed Stewart Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Dr Who

#43    psyche101

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 01:18 AM

View PostTheMacGuffin, on 08 August 2012 - 12:54 AM, said:

If those were real at all, or had anything to do with Project Mogul, the balloon crashes were over 1,000 miles away from Roswell.

They were real, here is a newspaper article from one of the Circlville finds.

Posted Image


These were launched from Wright Field though, not Alamogordo.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. - Sir Isaac Newton Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit. - Ed Stewart Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Dr Who

#44    psyche101

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 02:13 AM

View PostTheMacGuffin, on 08 August 2012 - 12:50 AM, said:

If Sgt. Bill Rickett was correct, Dr. LaPaz told him that an "unmanned interplanetary probe" crashed at Roswell.  Rickett's Roswell testimony often seems to get overlooked, while LaPaz is all but forgotten today, but it does confirm everything Jesse Marcel claimed.


http://www.nicap.org..._on_roswell.htm

"One of the key Roswell witnesses, CIC Master Sgt. Lewis "Bill" Rickett told investigators of the true role of his superior officer, CIC Capt. Sheridan Cavitt, in the 1947 Roswell events. He also visted the crash site and, in September 1947, accompanied Dr. Lincoln LaPaz around New Mexico trying to determine the speed and trajectory of the UFO before it crashed.

As Master Sgt. Lewis "Bill" Rickett and his boss, Capt. Sheridan Cavitt, walked Mack Brazel's field near Corona, N.M., Rickett was concerned whether the site was "hot." Cavitt assured him that there was no evidence of radioactivity.

Rickett, the noncommissioned officer in charge (NCOIC) of the counterintelligence office at Roswell Army Air Field had been on assignment in Carlsbad, N.M., when all the excitement about the recovery of an actual flying saucer began. When he returned to his office the morning of Tuesday, July 8, Cavitt invited him to take a drive north of town. It would take about 45 minutes, he said.

Rickett described what he saw in great detail: There were riflemen stationed on the periphery of the property and another encirclement of guards posted around a small containment of metal-like pieces. The vast majority of the recovery at the Brazel site had already been completed. Cavitt wanted to get Rickett's reaction to the strange material still scattered on the ground.

Rickett found one piece that was about two feet square and appeared to be slightly curved. He then placed it over his extended knee and tried to bend the semi-reflective, paper-thin sheet — the way one might try to bend a supple tree branch. According to Rickett, the material didn't seem to weigh anything.

Somewhat amused by Rickett's inability to warp the sheet, Cavitt said to Maj. Edwin Easley, the 509th Bomb Wing's provost marshal, "Smart guy. He's trying to do what we couldn't." Rickett couldn't believe that a piece of material so thin would not bend. As he and Cavitt drove back to the base, the captain reminded him, "You weren't here and neither was I."

Two months later, in September 1947, Rickett was given another field assignment. He was ordered to assist Manhattan Project scientist Dr. Lincoln La Paz, from the University of New Mexico at Albuquerque. La Paz was a famous meteor expert, as well as a nuclear scientist, and had just arrived at the base in Roswell after being briefed in Washington, D.C. La Paz and Rickett's assignment was to determine the speed and trajectory of the object that impacted north of town.

According to Rickett, he and La Paz discovered a possible touchdown point about five miles northwest of the debris field. Not only did they recover identical material as that which Rickett had handled before, they were startled to find that the sand in the high-desert terrain had crystallized, apparently as a result of exposure to tremendous heat.

They spent a total of three weeks interviewing witnesses and making their calculations, which were contained in La Paz's official report. Rickett never had a chance to see the document, which was delivered directly to the Pentagon. The professor did confide to the plainclothes intelligence specialist that, based on all the physical evidence they'd collected and tested, the original object was an "unmanned interplanetary probe."

Sgt. Rickett continued to search for answers. Unfortunately, his supervising officer, Capt. Cavitt, refused to discuss the matter with him.

One year later, Rickett met once again with Dr. La Paz, this time in Albuquerque. La Paz remained convinced that the object which crashed near Corona, N.M., was from another planet. In all his confidential meetings with various government agencies, he said, he had learned nothing which contradicted that position.

The very next month, while on assignment in Washington, D.C., Rickett met with fellow counterintelligence agent John Wirth. Rickett asked about the status of the materials recovered at Roswell the previous year. According to Wirth, the government's top researchers had yet to identify its metallurgic content and still "hadn't been able to cut it."

One can well imagine Bill Rickett's surprise when, after more than 40 years of silence, he received an evening phone call in 1991 from his former commanding officer.

"Happy birthday, Bill," said the voice on the other end of the phone. "Its 'Cav,' your old boss."

After exchanging niceties, Cavitt queried, "Have you been talking to anyone about what happened back in 1947?" Rickett identified one specific investigator, whom Cavitt knew as well.

"What have you been telling him?" pried Cavitt. "We both know what really happened out there, don't we, Bill?"

"We sure do," Rickett responded.

After a short pause Cavitt snapped back, "Well, maybe someday. Goodbye, Bill."

Lewis "Bill" Rickett, who passed away in October 1993, never heard from Cavitt again."



I didn't think La Paz ever confirmed Ricketts version of events before he passed. has anyone been able to verify it?

You would not know anything about the "natural satellites" that LaPaz and Tombaugh found by any chance? Hard to get more on that.

The enigma I find with LaPaz is that people saw him talk about UFO's as if he felt they were from another planet, but his official reports that actually went places suggested they were Russian spy devices. There seems to be two very distinct stories here, he seems to have had a more exciting story for the public than he did for his superiors.

Edited by psyche101, 08 August 2012 - 02:13 AM.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. - Sir Isaac Newton Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit. - Ed Stewart Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Dr Who

#45    NatureBoff

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 10:40 AM

View Postarchernyc, on 06 August 2012 - 03:50 PM, said:

The electro-magnetic pulse gun could also have disabled the muscular system of a flying lizard-bird, an alternative identification of a UFO.

The object, known by the locals as "Bicho Voador" (Flying Animal), or "Bicho Sugador" (Sucking Animal), has the shape of a rounded ship and attacks people in isolation.





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