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[Merged] Gobekli Tepe


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#61    The_Spartan

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 06:56 AM

View PostSpectralEdge, on 17 September 2012 - 06:35 AM, said:

Considering searching for "Ancient temple" brings me about 12 hours worth of reading to figure out, and I didn't know it had a specific name, searching would have been kinda pointless.

I did apologize in case it had been already hashed through but thought I was being polite in posting if it had not.

So sorry. I won't post anything new until I have read every single thread on the site. Forgive my impertinence.

Dont give that you didnt know it had a name!!
The very article you have linked to gives the name in the first few lines itself.

View Postsam12six, on 17 September 2012 - 06:16 AM, said:

You're not wrong, but why bother posting just to be so dickish about it? It's not like the OP said, "Here's something you all knew nothing about!!". She even started off by apologizing if it had been discussed before. It just seems like it would be more community minded to either ignore it if you didn't feel like participating in the discussion  again or just point the new person in the direction of those latest threads.

With as much misinformation as fringe sites keep alive, it's inevitable that new people are going to show up wanting to rehash things that have been discussed (and often debunked) before. I'd think someone interested in the actual facts of these discussions (as I know you are from your posts) would see it as an opportunity to steer people in the direction of the truth as opposed to jumping down their throats for trying to start a dialogue without noticing that the dialogue was already in progress elsewhere.

The OP like any forum user, can do a search  function to be sure whether a particular subject is discussed before. it would save him/her and the other forum users time, if the subject had been discussed before or is being discussed.
Thats what i have told him/her.
Whats so dickish about telling him/her that??

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#62    Abramelin

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 07:03 AM

http://www.unexplain...howtopic=228887


#63    Abramelin

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 07:06 AM

http://www.unexplain...howtopic=182501


#64    sam12six

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 07:42 AM

View PostThe_Spartan, on 17 September 2012 - 06:56 AM, said:

The OP like any forum user, can do a search  function to be sure whether a particular subject is discussed before. it would save him/her and the other forum users time, if the subject had been discussed before or is being discussed.
Thats what i have told him/her.
Whats so dickish about telling him/her that??

Telling her THAT wouldn't have been. It would have just been pointing out that the forum is better for everyone if we take a minute to be sure all the discussion on a specific topic is going on in the same thread. What you said, though, was:

View PostThe_Spartan, on 17 September 2012 - 04:46 AM, said:

It has indeed been posted numerous times, discussed numerous times and it has got a name too Gobekli Tepe.
If you could have bothered to do a search, you would have found the latest threads on Gobekli Tepe.

Which does sound a bit like someone recently peed in your cornflakes.

Considering the OP has twenty-something posts, I just don't see the point in going out of your way to be rude about it.


#65    Abramelin

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 07:45 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 17 September 2012 - 06:46 AM, said:

We can make this in yet another bicker thread, or be a bit constructive.

I guess I was too late.........


#66    The_Spartan

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 07:52 AM

View Postsam12six, on 17 September 2012 - 07:42 AM, said:

Telling her THAT wouldn't have been. It would have just been pointing out that the forum is better for everyone if we take a minute to be sure all the discussion on a specific topic is going on in the same thread. What you said, though, was:



Which does sound a bit like someone recently peed in your cornflakes.

Considering the OP has twenty-something posts, I just don't see the point in going out of your way to be rude about it.

Posted Image

and the Op was telling that he /she didn't find any name for this temple on the web page???

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#67    sam12six

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 08:15 AM

View PostThe_Spartan, on 17 September 2012 - 07:52 AM, said:

<SNIP>

and the Op was telling that he /she didn't find any name for this temple on the web page???

You were right. I said that in my first post. I just don't understand your instantly jumping to such a confrontational stance with someone who's been a member for 2 months and has 30 posts and from what I can see hasn't spent those 30 posts flooding the forum with redundant topics...


#68    lightly

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 12:36 PM

View PostThe_Spartan, on 17 September 2012 - 06:56 AM, said:

Dont give that you didnt know it had a name!!
The very article you have linked to gives the name in the first few lines itself.



The OP like any forum user, can do a search  function to be sure whether a particular subject is discussed before. it would save him/her and the other forum users time, if the subject had been discussed before or is being discussed.
Thats what i have told him/her.
Whats so dickish about telling him/her that??

  the poster , SpectralEdge, is female.  "If you could have bothered to" look.  ;)

Important:  The above may contain errors, inaccuracies, omissions, and other limitations.

#69    Abramelin

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 01:54 PM

You know what? I will "start" with an old post of mine:

View PostAbramelin, on 10 August 2012 - 05:53 PM, said:


Abstract:

Archaeologists have proposed that quite a number of structures dating to the Pre-Pottery Neolithic A and B in southwest Asia were nondomestic ritual buildings, sometimes described specifically as temples or shrines, and these figure large in some interpretations of social change in the Near Eastern Neolithic. Yet the evidence supporting the identification of cult buildings is often equivocal or depends on ethnocentric distinctions between sacred and profane spaces. This paper explores the case of Göbekli Tepe, a large Pre-Pottery Neolithic site in Turkey that its excavator claims consisted only of temples, to illustrate weaknesses in some kinds of claims about Neolithic sacred spaces and to explore some of the problems of identifying prehistoric ritual. Consideration of the evidence suggests the alternative hypothesis that the buildings at Göbekli Tepe may actually be houses, albeit ones that are rich in symbolic content.

http://www.jstor.org...=21101127584891


If the Göbekli structures were in fact unroofed, it surely follows they were not houses. Beginning with a structural examination of the pillars, Banning suggests they are placed and buttressed in a manner that would have supported overhead wooden beams, which in turn would have been thatched. There are several hints (ranging from grooves and notches to wood) that this may in fact have been the case, and Banning has sketched one possible layout:

Attachment gobekli-tepe-houses-of-the-holy-L-lZJmJB.jpg

(...)

While there is no doubt that Göbekli Tepe is an important site and that aspects of its structures were symbolically loaded, the claim that the site had no residential occupation is simply not credible.

Most likely, either the famous “temples” are actually houses or houses lie elsewhere on the site and are simply not represented or not yet identified in the excavated sample.

In short, there is no strong reason to assume that the people who used the buildings at GöbekliTepe, in any stratum, were not Neolithic villagers.

Ignoring even the possibility that some of the claimed shrines and temples at Neolithic sites may have been houses or other types of buildings, however, could distort our interpretations not only of Neolithic religion but of nonreligious aspects of the communities that inhabited or used those sites.


http://en.paperblog....the-holy-81564/


And don't forget to read the rest of the article on that blog (second link).


And is Göbekli Tepe unique?

No, it's similar in age and artifacts to Karahan Tepe and Nevali Çori.

http://www.springeri...34-011-0291-5-1


.



#70    Abramelin

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 02:07 PM

The most recent building phase at Göbekli Tepe (Level II) has been dated both comparatively and absolutely (C14) to ca 8,000 BC, with an earlier primary building phase (Level III) ending as early as 9,000 BC. The age of the earliest occupation cannot yet be determined; the depth of the deposit, however, would suggest a period of several millennia, which signifies that the site had already existed in early Palaeolithic times.

==

Karahan Tepe, a site only discovered in the late 1990s and still awaiting full excavation. This is located near Sogmatar on the Harran Plain, and dates back 11,000 years at least. Already a large number of T-Shaped pillars and stone rows have been uncovered here.

Karahan Tepe lies 60 km east from Urfa in an area called Tektek Daglari. Some 266 in situ pillars (Like the Göbekli pillars...only smaller) cover the field and are visible 50-60 cm above ground level. The rest of the pillars are still covered under the earth.

http://www.ancient-w...rkeygobekli.htm


#71    Abramelin

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 03:54 PM

The most recent building phase at Göbekli Tepe (Level II) has been dated both comparatively and absolutely (C14) to ca 8,000 BC, with an earlier primary building phase (Level III) ending as early as 9,000 BC. The age of the earliest occupation cannot yet be determined; the depth of the deposit, however, would suggest a period of several millennia, which signifies that the site had already existed in early Palaeolithic times.

==

Karahan Tepe, a site only discovered in the late 1990s and still awaiting full excavation. This is located near Sogmatar on the Harran Plain, and dates back 11,000 years at least. Already a large number of T-Shaped pillars and stone rows have been uncovered here.

Karahan Tepe lies 60 km east from Urfa in an area called Tektek Daglari. Some 266 in situ pillars (Like the Göbekli pillars...only smaller) cover the field and are visible 50-60 cm above ground level. The rest of the pillars are still covered under the earth.

http://www.ancient-w...rkeygobekli.htm


+++++



But there was a problem for these early farmers, and it wasn't just that they had adopted a tougher, if ultimately more productive, lifestyle. They also experienced an ecological crisis. These days the landscape surrounding the eerie stones of Gobekli is arid and barren, but it was not always thus. As the carvings on the stones show - and as archaeological remains reveal - this was once a richly pastoral region.

There were herds of game, rivers of fish, and flocks of wildfowl; lush green meadows were ringed by woods and wild orchards. About 10,000 years ago, the Kurdish desert was a 'paradisiacal place', as Schmidt puts it. So what destroyed the environment? The answer is Man.

As we began farming, we changed the landscape and the climate. When the trees were chopped down, the soil leached away; all that ploughing and reaping left the land eroded and bare. What was once an agreeable oasis became a land of stress, toil and diminishing returns.

And so, paradise was lost. Adam the hunter was forced out of his glorious Eden, 'to till the earth from whence he was taken' - as the Bible puts it.

Of course, these theories might be dismissed as speculations. Yet there is plenty of historical evidence to show that the writers of the Bible, when talking of Eden, were, indeed, describing this corner of Kurdish Turkey.

In the Book of Genesis, it is indicated that Eden is west of Assyria. Sure enough, this is where Gobekli is sited.
Likewise, biblical Eden is by four rivers, including the Tigris and Euphrates. And Gobekli lies between both of these.

In ancient Assyrian texts, there is mention of a 'Beth Eden' - a house of Eden. This minor kingdom was 50 miles from Gobekli Tepe.

Another book in the Old Testament talks of 'the children of Eden which were in Thelasar', a town in northern Syria, near Gobekli.

The very word 'Eden' comes from the Sumerian for 'plain'; Gobekli lies on the plains of Harran.

Thus, when you put it all together, the evidence is persuasive. Gobekli Tepe is, indeed, a 'temple in Eden', built by our leisured and fortunate ancestors - people who had time to cultivate art, architecture and complex ritual, before the traumas of agriculture ruined their lifestyle, and devastated their paradise.

It's a stunning and seductive idea. Yet it has a sinister epilogue. Because the loss of paradise seems to have had a strange and darkening effect on the human mind.

A few years ago, archaeologists at nearby Cayonu unearthed a hoard of human skulls. They were found under an altar-like slab, stained with human blood.

No one is sure, but this may be the earliest evidence for human sacrifice: one of the most inexplicable of human behaviours and one that could have evolved only in the face of terrible societal stress.

Experts may argue over the evidence at Cayonu. But what no one denies is that human sacrifice took place in this region, spreading to Palestine, Canaan and Israel.

Archaeological evidence suggests that victims were killed in huge death pits, children were buried alive in jars, others roasted in vast bronze bowls.

These are almost incomprehensible acts, unless you understand that the people had learned to fear their gods, having been cast out of paradise. So they sought to propitiate the angry heavens.

This savagery may, indeed, hold the key to one final, bewildering mystery. The astonishing stones and friezes of Gobekli Tepe are preserved intact for a bizarre reason.

Long ago, the site was deliberately and systematically buried in a feat of labour every bit as remarkable as the stone carvings.

http://www.dailymail...arden-Eden.html


+++++



The history of Şanlıurfa is recorded from the 4th century BC, but may date back to 9000 BC, when there is ample evidence for the surrounding sites at Duru, Harran and Nevali Cori. It was one of several cities in the Euphrates-Tigris basin, the cradle of the Mesopotamian civilization. According to Turkish Muslim traditions Urfa (its name since Byzantine days) is the biblical city of Ur of the Chaldees, due to its proximity to the biblical village of Harran.

http://en.wikipedia....iki/Şanlıurfa


+++++


Harran seems to have been the home of Abram (Gen 12:1,4), not Ur, though Ur, according to Cyrus Gordon, was the nearby town later called Edessa (Urfa) but which was called Urfu, at that time, not the Ur near the junction of the two rivers much further south. Apollonius Molo, even in the first century BC, tells a different story about the origin of Abraham from Genesis. The Patriarch was born in the mountainous edges of Syria, fringing on the northern steppes, after his ancestors had fled from Armenia. This description fits the same place—it is the neighbourhood of Urfa and Harran, a place known as Beth Eden (Bit Adini)! Biblicists have always know where Eden was, but they did not care to say.

http://www.askwhy.co...Patriarchs1.php



From a link at the and of that page:

Prominent atheist Richard Dawkins and Britain’s Chief Rabbi Jonathan Sacks met in an hour-long debate on science and religion, as part of the Re:Think Festival in Salford.

“How do you decide which bits [of scripture] are symbolic and which bits are not?” asked Prof Dawkins at one point during the discussion.

“Very simple,” replied the Chief Rabbi.

“The rabbis in the 10th century laid down the following principle: if a biblical narrative is incompatible with established scientific fact, it is not to be read literally.”

Christians take note. The Old Testament is the scripture of Jews. Maybe the Rabbis can be expected to know it better than TV evangelicals.

http://mikemagee.wordpress.com/


#72    lightly

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 06:34 PM

Very interesting stuff Abramelin.   I was hoping someone would bring up Nevali Cori  sometime ...   and i hadn't heard of Karahan Tepe...   Both very similar to Gobekli tepe,  but both being younger versions with smaller T shaped pillars?  
   I've read that Nevali Cori was about 1000 years younger than the most recent constructions at Gobekli tepe.  Also, that the Gobekli tepe site had been in use for several millennia !
     I also recently learned, as your info says, that    Edin  (however it was spelled or symbolized)  was Sumerian for  plain.   Pretty interesting...  someone was 'banished'  from "the garden"... or.. it dried up and blew away! :)

    The period of time between Gobekli tepe and 'Sumeria'   is longer than the time since the latter !
so... how old are some stories which are still being told ?

  *Oh...  and SpectralEdge, .. pretty interesting stuff from Abramelin huh? :)

Edited by lightly, 17 September 2012 - 06:35 PM.

Important:  The above may contain errors, inaccuracies, omissions, and other limitations.

#73    Harte

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 07:57 PM

View Postsam12six, on 17 September 2012 - 06:16 AM, said:

You're not wrong, but why bother posting just to be so dickish about it? It's not like the OP said, "Here's something you all knew nothing about!!". She even started off by apologizing if it had been discussed before. It just seems like it would be more community minded to either ignore it if you didn't feel like participating in the discussion  again or just point the new person in the direction of those latest threads.
Well, I for one didn't think The Spartan was being "dickish."

He was more like merely terse and/or curt.

"Dickish" to me would indicate a somewhat harder position, perhaps more of a rigid stance, a turgid, throbbing condemnation of the OP, depending on his age and the circumstances, that is.

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#74    sam12six

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 08:21 PM

View PostHarte, on 17 September 2012 - 07:57 PM, said:

Well, I for one didn't think The Spartan was being "dickish."

He was more like merely terse and/or curt.

"Dickish" to me would indicate a somewhat harder position, perhaps more of a rigid stance, a turgid, throbbing condemnation of the OP, depending on his age and the circumstances, that is.

Harte

Yeah, you're right. Being dickish could mean someone's willing to stand up for his ideas, driving deep into the core of an issue and spewing out his wisdom.

It may have been less confusing for me to have simply stuck with rude.


#75    lizzieboo

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 08:45 PM

View PostSpectralEdge, on 17 September 2012 - 04:38 AM, said:

Sorry if this has been posted before. I found it interesting but the article is from a few years ago.

http://www.sott.net/...in-the-Remaking

Sweetie, I've accidentally posted about things that already had threads, and I've also necroposted or whatever the heck they call it (posting on a long-dead thread as though it was new). Don't worry about it. There are bigger things in life to think about.

All right, I see what's going on. This is the opening salvo in what will be an escalating series of juvenile tit for tat exchanges. Well titted! Stand by for my upcoming tat. --Dr. Sheldon Cooper





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