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[Merged] Gobekli Tepe


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#76    Abramelin

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 11:30 PM

View Postlightly, on 17 September 2012 - 06:34 PM, said:

Very interesting stuff Abramelin.   I was hoping someone would bring up Nevali Cori  sometime ...   and i hadn't heard of Karahan Tepe...   Both very similar to Gobekli tepe,  but both being younger versions with smaller T shaped pillars?


"Karahan Tepe, a site only discovered in the late 1990s and still awaiting full excavation. This is located near Sogmatar on the Harran Plain, and dates back 11,000 years at least."

READ, goddamnit. read.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 17 September 2012 - 11:32 PM.


#77    SpectralEdge

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 12:46 AM

I didn't say I didn't see the name on the article, I said I did not know it was named. Unlike some people, this is not the forum I regularly read and I didn't notice the name because honestly other than "oh how interesting, a very old temple" I didn't find the article so engrossing I felt the need to memorize it before posting it.

I thought I was being polite by passing on an article posted to me on another site. I remembered seeing a section on UM about ancient history so I thought you would find it interesting. Instead of saying something like "Yes, this has been covered, thanks" you have wasted far too much time with your rudeness.


#78    Abramelin

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 01:15 AM

Can't you all stop the bickering and stop proving yourself being in your right for once, goddamnit??

I posted on topic, now go read what I wrote,  and reply to THAT.

OK?


#79    Macroramphosis

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 02:18 AM

Abramelin, do I note a hesitant thought that we are to find some monstrous evil to be yet uncovered at GT ? Was GT buried to hide evidence of something despicable ? Was GT even buried by the people who created it, or did some other culture do that to obliterate the memories of a civilization (if that is what is was) that practiced human sacrifice ?

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#80    Abramelin

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 10:56 AM

View PostMacroramphosis, on 18 September 2012 - 02:18 AM, said:

Abramelin, do I note a hesitant thought that we are to find some monstrous evil to be yet uncovered at GT ? Was GT buried to hide evidence of something despicable ? Was GT even buried by the people who created it, or did some other culture do that to obliterate the memories of a civilization (if that is what is was) that practiced human sacrifice ?


It almost looks like that, Macro:


Çayönü in Eastern Anatolia

It is characteristic that this most ancient of all known class societies should present itself to us as a patriarchal society (Hauptmann 1991: 161/3, 2002: 266 f., Özdoğan 1999b: 234/2) of bitter destructiveness: the gloomy temples dug into the mountain like caves served to maintain power in a society that was obviously rigidly organized (Özdoğan 1994: 43, 1999b: 231) through open terror: human sacrifices. In the temples of all building levels huge amounts of blood were shed which the excavators retrieved in thick crusts on daggers, altars or draining funnels which were designed specifically for that purpose (Schirmer 1983: 466 f. and footnote 5, see also 475, Schirmer 1990: 382, 384, Hole 2000: 200 f.). The analysis of the isolated blood pigment haemoglobin revealed that it was generally human blood (Loy and Wood 1989, Wood 1998). In the chambers of one of these temples there were the skulls of more than 70 people and parts of skeletons of more than 400 different individuals (Özdoğan and Özdoğan 1989: 71/2) "neatly stacked up to the ceiling" (Schirmer 1990: 382). The situation in the other settlements of Eastern Anatolia was comparable.

However, whereas in other parts of the globe the development of this kind of class society proceeded further (cf. parallels to Central American civilizations), history in Southeast Anatolia took a completely different turn.

http://www.urkommuni...k_en.html#_ftn3

.

Edited by Abramelin, 18 September 2012 - 10:59 AM.


#81    lightly

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 12:50 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 17 September 2012 - 11:30 PM, said:

"Karahan Tepe, a site only discovered in the late 1990s and still awaiting full excavation. This is located near Sogmatar on the Harran Plain, and dates back 11,000 years at least."

READ, goddamnit. read.

.
Well,  EXCUUUUUUSE me!  ;)    i had READ somewhere that Nevali Cori was dated about a thousand years younger  than Gobekli tepe... and i also READ  that  the T shaped pillars there were smaller.   Aren't parts of Gobelki tepe  dated at 12,000 years old?   which would make  what has been dated at Karahan tepe   (11,000 years)    ..  possibly a little younger,,,  as i questioned????

Important:  The above may contain errors, inaccuracies, omissions, and other limitations.

#82    Abramelin

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 12:54 PM

View Postlightly, on 18 September 2012 - 12:50 PM, said:

Well,  EXCUUUUUUSE me!  ;) i had READ somewhere that Nevali Cori was dated about a thousand years younger  than Gobekli tepe... and i also READ  that  the T shaped pillars there were smaller.   Aren't parts of Gobelki tepe  dated at 12,000 years old?   which would make  what has been dated at Karahan tepe   (11,000 years) ..  possibly a little younger,,,  as i questioned????

"Karahan Tepe, a site only discovered in the late 1990s and still awaiting full excavation. This is located near Sogmatar on the Harran Plain, and dates back 11,000 years at least."


#83    Abramelin

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 01:17 PM

Neo-Lithics 2-3/00 (2000?)

A Newsletter of Aouthwest Asian Lithics Research


In the light of all these finds it seems that Karahan Tepe, the
upper levels of Göpekli Tepe and Nevali Çori 111
(Schmidt 1998b,
1998c: Fig. 1) are contemporaneous. Since there are not any Palmyra
Points (Schmidt 1996) or Çayönü Tools at the Karahail
settlement, it is possible for us to date this settlement as MPPNB.


http://www.exoriente.../docs/00019.pdf


+++++


Hamzan Tepe in the light of new finds
Bahattin Çelik
Department of Archaeology, University of Harran

http://arheologija.f...pdf37/37_22.pdf


#84    Abramelin

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 01:39 PM

The Archaeological Site of Göbeklitepe
(2012)

In the immediate vicinity of Göbeklitepe there are three more sites with similar, small T-shaped pillars visible on the surface, but neither at Sefer Tepe nor at Karahan or Hamzan Tepe excavations was conducted so far. It is clear, that these places form an inner circle of sites belonging to the cultic community of Göbeklitepe, but this community was not constricted to these sites.

Throughout Upper Mesopotamia hints at the religious ideology of Göbeklitepe can be found in the material culture of settlement sites, while the case of another exclusive sanctuary remains unknown. All these sites date to the PPNA/Early PPNB, in the second half of 10th and 9th Millennia B.C. and all can be described as settled hunter-gatherer settlement sites, with a spatial division of residential and specialized workshop areas and a growing importance given to "Sondergebäude" (special buildings) used for communal and ritual purposes, including open courtyards as communal space.

http://whc.unesco.or...tivelists/5612/


+++++


Pre-Pottery Neolithic B

Pre-Pottery Neolithic B (PPNB) is a division of the Neolithic developed by Dame Kathleen Kenyon during her archaeological excavations at Jericho in the southern Levant region.

The period is dated to between ca. 10700 and ca. 8000 BP or 8700 - 6000 BCE.

http://en.wikipedia....ery_Neolithic_B



+++++


Neo-Lithics_2.04 24.01.2005

The only architectural remains so far discovered at
Hamzan Tepe are a section of a wall constructed of several
stone layers and a stele of T-shape (Fig. 4). Stelae of
the similar type have been unearthed at Nevalý Çori,
Göbekli Tepe, Adiyaman-Kilisik (Hauptmann 2000: Fig.
8-10; Verhoeven 2001: 9, Fig. 1 a-d) and Karahan Tepe.
Our stele is smaller in scale and is reminiscent of the
stelae on the side walls of the temple at Nevalý Çori
(Hauptmann 1993: Fig. 7) and the stelae of the second
phase at Göbekli Tepe (Schmidt 2002: 24-25, Fig. 1).


The stele from Hamzan Tepe also shares certain characteristics
with those from Karahan Tepe (Çelik 2000a:
7) and indicates that the temple worship tradition as evidenced
at Göbekli Tepe, Nevalý Çori, Karahan Tepe, and
Adiyaman-Kilisik also existed at Hamzan Tepe.


The section of Hamzan Tepe settlement that is visible
today is similar to two areas that have been excavated
in the southwestern section of Göbekli Tepe. There the
earth above the bedrock is 10-40 cm thick. In the first
area were found a stele with a crouching animal and its
base in situ (Beile-Bohn et al. 1998: Fig. 30). The second
excavation area contained a temple and pool-like
pits carved into the bedrock and smaller round depressions
forming a circle (Beile-Bohn et al. 1998: Fig. 20).


Both areas have also produced numerous flint artefacts
(Schmidt 1997: 77). Flint artefacts found on the surface,
pool-like pits and depressions carved into the bedrock
at Göbekli Tepe are close parallels with those from
Hamzan Tepe.


http://www.exoriente.../docs/00048.pdf


+++++


Hamzan Tepe

Settlement site belonging to the Urfa culture dating to about 8000 BCE, which also relates to the Göbeckli Tepe and Nevali Cori site. Unfortunately the site lies under the Şanlıurfa rubbish dump and is largely destroyed.

http://www.megalithi...e.php?sid=14997


#85    Abramelin

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 01:55 PM

I think at this point a map wouldn't hurt:

Posted Image

Fig. 1. Location of sites mentioned in the text. 1: Aghios Petros, 2: Aşıklıhöyük, 3: Aswad, 4: Baja, 5: Cafer Höyük, 6: Can Hasan III, 7: Çatalhöyük, 8: Çayönü, 9: Dhuweila II, 10: Tell es Sinn, 11: Ghoraifé, 12: Gilgal I/III, 13: Göbekli Tepe, 14: Gritille Höyük, 15: Gürcütepe II, 16: Hagoshrim, 17: Hallan Çemi Tepesi, 18: Halula, 19: Hatoula, 20: Hayaz Höyük, 21: Horvat Galil, 22: Jebel Naja, 23: Jerf el Ahmar, 24: Karim Shahir, 25: M’lefaat, 26: Magzaliya, 27: Mersin/Yumuktepe, 28: Mezraa-Teleilat, 29: Mureybit, 30: Mylouthkia, 31: Nacharini, 32: Nahal Oren, 33: Nemrik 9, 34: Nevalı Çori/Hamzan Tepe, 35: Pınarbaşı A, 36: Qdeir 1, 37: Qermez Dere, 38: Sabi Abyad II, 39: Shillourokambos, 40: Tsur Nathan, 41: Wadi Faynan 16, 42: Wadi Jilat 13, 43: Zahrat edh-Dhra.

http://www.sciencedi...305440310003638


#86    Harte

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 02:20 PM

View PostMacroramphosis, on 18 September 2012 - 02:18 AM, said:

did some other culture do that to obliterate the memories of a civilization (if that is what is was) that practiced human sacrifice ?

Doubt it.

Recently, it was found that the site was buried multiple times. This is a likely indicator that the culture that built it buried it between uses.

Harte

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#87    Abramelin

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 02:26 PM

View PostHarte, on 18 September 2012 - 02:20 PM, said:

Doubt it.

Recently, it was found that the site was buried multiple times. This is a likely indicator that the culture that built it buried it between uses.

Harte

Considering the suggestion of revolution and war in an earlier post, it may have happened several times that the enemy who buried the structure got beaten and driven out, and the original occupants dug out their temple or whatever it was, only to be buried again by their enemy when that enemy returned.


#88    The_Spartan

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 03:23 PM

My apologies for coming as a terse, cad dickish guy.
You see, i call a spade a spade,  because its a spade.

Sorry if i have hurt anybody's feelings.
I am sorry to say that i will still call a spade a spade.

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#89    Harte

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 03:42 PM

So, instead of dickish, now you're a card dealer?

Harte

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#90    Abramelin

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 08:36 PM

Nevalı Çori was an early Neolithic settlement on the middle Euphrates, in the province of Şanlıurfa (Urfa), eastern Turkey. The site is famous for having revealed some of the world's most ancient known temples and monumental sculpture. Together with the site of Göbekli Tepe, it has revolutionised scientific understanding of the Eurasian Neolithic.

The settlement was located about 490 m above sea level, in the foothills of the Taurus Mountains, on both banks of the Kantara stream, a tributary of the Euphrates.

The site was examined from 1983 to 1991 in the context of rescue excavations during the erection of the Atatürk Dam below Samsat. Excavations were conducted by a team from the University of Heidelberg under the direction of Professor Harald Hauptmann. Together with numerous other archaeological sites in the vicinity, Nevalı Çori has since been inundated by the dammed waters of the Euphrates.

Nevalı Çori could be placed within the local relative chronology on the basis of its flint tools. The occurrence of narrow unretouched Byblos-type points places it on Oliver Aurenche's Phase 3, i.e. early to middle PPNB. Some tools indicate continuity into Phase 4, which is similar in date to Late PPNB. An even finer chronological distinction within Phase 3 is permitted by the settlement's architecture; the house type with underfloor channels, typical of Nevalı Çori strata I-IV, also characterises the "Intermediate Layer" at Çayönü, while the differing plan of the single building in stratum V, House 1, is more clearly connected to the buildings of the "Cellular Plan Layer" at Çayönü.

In terms of absolute dates, 4 radiocarbon dates have been determined for Nevalı Çori. Three are from Stratum II and date it with some certainty to the second half of the 9th millennium BC, which coincides with early dates from Çayönü and with Mureybet IVA and thus supports the relative chronology above. The fourth dates to the 10th millennium, which, if correct, would indicate the presence of an extremely early phase of PPNB at Nevalı Çori.

The local limestone was carved into numerous statues and smaller sculptures, including a more than life-sized bare human head with a snake or sikha-like tuft. There is also a statue of a bird. Some of the pillars also bore reliefs, including ones of human hands. The free-standing anthropomorphic figures of limestone excavated at Nevalı Çori belong to the earliest known life-size sculptures. Comparable material has been found at Göbekli Tepe.

Several hundred small clay figurines (about 5 cm high), most of them depicting humans, have been interpreted as votive offerings. They were fired at temperatures between 500-600°C, which suggests the development of ceramic firing technology before the advent of pottery proper.

Some of the houses contained depositions of human skulls and incomplete skeletons.


http://en.wikipedia....iki/Nevali_Cori


+++++


The dating of Çayönü is placed in the Pre Ceramic (=Pre Pottery) Neolitic B or PPNB which starts between 9100-8000 BCE and ends aruound 6200 BCE. In the bottom layer (ca. 8800-8500 BCE) it can be shown that hunter-gatherers has settled and lived here. In the layer above (ca. 8000 BCE) they found sowing seed, so agriculture was practiced. Around 7300 BCE there's proof of flocks of sheep, so stock-breeding was practiced.

http://nl.wikipedia..../wiki/Çayönü


+++++


On a certain day 9 200 years ago the manorial houses at the north side of the large square in Çayönü were burnt down, and this happened so fast that the owners were not able to save any of their treasures (Davis 1998: 259/2, 260/2).

The temple was torn down and burnt, and even the floor was ripped open (Schirmer 1983: 467, 1990: 384), the stone pillars around the free space were taken down and the taller of them were broken up (Özdoğan and Özdoğan 1989: 74, Özdoğan 1999a: fig. 41, fig. 42).

The place itself - previously maintained and kept meticulously clean for more than 1000 years (and thus making it more than 10,200 yrs old) - was converted into a municipal waste dump (Özdoğan and Özdoğan 1989: 72/1, Özdoğan 1997: 15). The ruins of the manorial houses in the eastern part of the settlement were demolished.

Instead, new residential houses were erected. Subsequently, the slums in the west disappeared. They disappeared for good, but where the manorial houses had burnt the new Çayönü was erected (see sequence of plans in Özdoğan 1999a: fig. 35, fig. 46, fig. 47). The new houses were comparable in size to the old manors (Schirmer 1988: 148 f.) but there were no more houses or shacks built to an inferior standard (see sequence of plans in Özdoğan 1999a: fig. 35, fig. 46, fig. 47).

In all houses, work was done (Özdoğan 1999a: 53/1) and all hints to social differences were erased (Özdoğan 1999a: fig. 47, fig. 50, also see Schirmer 1988: 148 f.).

http://www.urkommuni...hueyuek_en.html


+++++


Archaeologists use the word terrazzo to describe the floors of early neolithic buildings (PPN A and B, ca. 9,000–8,000 BC) in Western Asia, that are constructed of burnt lime and clay, colored red with ochre and polished. The embedded crushed limestone gives it a slightly mottled appearance. The use of fire to produce burnt lime, which was also used for the hafting of implements, predates the use of pottery by almost a thousand years. In the early Neolithic settlement of Cayönü in eastern Turkey ca. 90 m² of terrazzo floors have been uncovered. The floors of the PPN B settlement of Nevali Cori measure about 80 m². They are 15 cm thick, and contain about 10-15 % lime.

These floors are almost impenetrable to moisture and very durable, but their construction involved a high input of energy. Gourdin and Kingery (1975) estimate that about 5 times the amount of wood is needed to produce the required amount of lime, but recent experiments by Affonso and Pernicka have shown that only the double amount is needed. But that would still amount to 4.5 metric tons of dry wood for the floors in Cayönü, in what is an only sparsely wooded environment today.

Other sites with terrazzo floors include Nevali Cori, Göbekli Tepe, Jericho, and Kastros (Cyprus).


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrazzo


+++++


According to Der Spiegel[1] of either 6 March or 3 June 2006, the Max Planck Institute for Plant Breeding Research in Cologne[2] has discovered that the genetically common ancestor of 68 contemporary types of cereal still grows as a wild plant on the slopes of Mount Karaca (Karaca Dağ), which is located in close vicinity to Çayönü. (Compare to information on cereal use in PPNA).

http://en.wikipedia..../wiki/Çayönü





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