325 replies to this topic

[SpectralEdge]

If it was overtaken by invading forces, why would they bury it instead of ruin it? (no pun intended).

[Abramelin]

From what I found out for this thread, the so called 'temples' in ancient south-eastern Anatolia were not ceremoniously buried or something, but buried to hide the temples of the hated enemy. In some cases the temples were totally destroyed.

Something truelly nasty was going on around 10,000 BCE

What was it? A war between invading hunter-gatherers and the new agriculturists?

Were the caught invaders sacrificed on altars?

Did the invaders eventually win the war and take over the culture (for instance by eventually becoming agriculturists themselves), and did the former inhabitants flee southwards to what would become Phoenicia and/or Canaan (continuing their practice of human sacrifice (think "Moloch" of the much later Canaanites/Phoenicians)?

It almost sounds like a precursor of the much later Biblical myth of Cain and Abel / Qayin (קין) and Havel (הבל)............ Çayönü and XYZ?? According to some Cain symbolizes the first agriculturist, while Abel would be either a shepherd or a hunter-gatherer.

Who could possibly have been those invaders of the ancient Anatolian civilization?

I think there is not much choice: I think it must have been the Natufians who were still very much hunter-gatherers, and living in what is now Syria, Lebanon and Israel (plus Sinai).

[Abramelin]

SpectralEdge, on 18 September 2012 - 08:48 PM, said:

If it was overtaken by invading forces, why would they bury it instead of ruin it? (no pun intended).

Well, read what I posted:

Çayönü:

The temple was torn down and burnt, and even the floor was ripped open (Schirmer 1983: 467, 1990: 384), the stone pillars around the free space were taken down and the taller of them were broken up (Özdoğan and Özdoğan 1989: 74, Özdoğan 1999a: fig. 41, fig. 42).

And the Göbekli Tepe temple was built using very heavy T-shaped stones, so they just buried it. They didn't want to break their backs trying to pull them down.

It could also have been a way of ceremoniously burying the enemy in a "grave".


,

Edited by Abramelin, 18 September 2012 - 09:08 PM.

[Abramelin]

Abramelin, on 26 August 2012 - 05:31 PM, said:

Turkey/Anatolia appears to be an interesting place for another reason:



Indo-European languages originate in Anatolia

The Indo-European languages belong to one of the widest spread language families of the world. For the last two millenia, many of these languages have been written, and their history is relatively clear. But controversy remains about the time and place of the origins of the family. A large international team, including MPI researcher Michael Dunn, reports the results of an innovative Bayesian phylogeographic analysis of Indo-European linguistic and spatial data. Their paper appears this week in Science.

The majority view in historical linguistics is that the homeland of Indo-European is located in the Pontic steppes (present day Ukraine) around 6,000 years ago. The evidence for this comes from linguistic paleontology: in particular, certain words to do with the technology of wheeled vehicles are arguably present across all the branches of the Indo-European family; and archaeology tells us that wheeled vehicles arose no earlier than this date. The minority view links the origins of Indo-European with the spread of farming from Anatolia 8,000 to 9,500 years ago.

http://archaeologyne...iginate-in.html




Mapping the Origins and Expansion of the Indo-European Language Family

There are two competing hypotheses for the origin of the Indo-European language family. The conventional view places the homeland in the Pontic steppes about 6000 years ago. An alternative hypothesis claims that the languages spread from Anatolia with the expansion of farming 8000 to 9500 years ago. We used Bayesian phylogeographic approaches, together with basic vocabulary data from 103 ancient and contemporary Indo-European languages, to explicitly model the expansion of the family and test these hypotheses. We found decisive support for an Anatolian origin over a steppe origin. Both the inferred timing and root location of the Indo-European language trees fit with an agricultural expansion from Anatolia beginning 8000 to 9500 years ago. These results highlight the critical role that phylogeographic inference can play in resolving debates about human prehistory.

http://www.sciencema...nt/337/6097/957

[SpectralEdge]

It just seems odd to bury something no matter how hard it would be to pull down. Burying it would have taken a heck of a lot of time. They destroyed some and not others which makes me wonder if they were actually afraid to destroy the one that they did not.

Something like we don't want to worship you...but we don't want to piss you of either. So were just going to shovel some dirt on you. heh.

I guess what I am asking, is there anything significant about the one they buried besides the difficult to pull down T's?

Intentionally burying something on that scale just seems like almost as monumental a feat as building it.

[Kazoo]

A thread about how many threads we have about this thread?

Threadception.

[Abramelin]

Kazoo, on 19 September 2012 - 12:57 AM, said:

A thread about how many threads we have about this thread?

Threadception.

But this one has more new info than all the ones before combined.

[Abramelin]

SpectralEdge, on 19 September 2012 - 12:27 AM, said:

It just seems odd to bury something no matter how hard it would be to pull down. Burying it would have taken a heck of a lot of time. They destroyed some and not others which makes me wonder if they were actually afraid to destroy the one that they did not.

Something like we don't want to worship you...but we don't want to piss you of either. So were just going to shovel some dirt on you. heh.

I guess what I am asking, is there anything significant about the one they buried besides the difficult to pull down T's?

Intentionally burying something on that scale just seems like almost as monumental a feat as building it.

What is odd...

The Aztecs cut out the still beating hearts of their captives, like many thousands a month. Just to make sure the sun would rise again, or something.

Odd, yeah.

Human nature, yeah.

I can only answer you by what I find online. I do have some ideas, but that's about it.

Maybe burying the main temple of your enemy was the ultimate humiliation 11,000 years ago?

.

Edited by Abramelin, 19 September 2012 - 01:15 AM.

[Macroramphosis]

Abramelin, on 18 September 2012 - 08:36 PM, said:

On a certain day 9 200 years ago the manorial houses at the north side of the large square in Çayönü were burnt down, and this happened so fast that the owners were not able to save any of their treasures (Davis 1998: 259/2, 260/2).

The temple was torn down and burnt, and even the floor was ripped open (Schirmer 1983: 467, 1990: 384), the stone pillars around the free space were taken down and the taller of them were broken up (Özdoğan and Özdoğan 1989: 74, Özdoğan 1999a: fig. 41, fig. 42).

The place itself - previously maintained and kept meticulously clean for more than 1000 years (and thus making it more than 10,200 yrs old) - was converted into a municipal waste dump (Özdoğan and Özdoğan 1989: 72/1, Özdoğan 1997: 15). The ruins of the manorial houses in the eastern part of the settlement were demolished.

Instead, new residential houses were erected. Subsequently, the slums in the west disappeared. They disappeared for good, but where the manorial houses had burnt the new Çayönü was erected (see sequence of plans in Özdoğan 1999a: fig. 35, fig. 46, fig. 47). The new houses were comparable in size to the old manors (Schirmer 1988: 148 f.) but there were no more houses or shacks built to an inferior standard (see sequence of plans in Özdoğan 1999a: fig. 35, fig. 46, fig. 47).

In all houses, work was done (Özdoğan 1999a: 53/1) and all hints to social differences were erased (Özdoğan 1999a: fig. 47, fig. 50, also see Schirmer 1988: 148 f.).

http://www.urkommuni...hueyuek_en.html

I wonder whether this was an instance of a successful civil uprising rather than an invasion. The continuity of the locale, instead of its complete destruction might well be an indicator that people of the same ilk caused the specific damage to some areas and the subsequent re-building.

[Abramelin]

Macroramphosis, on 19 September 2012 - 03:41 AM, said:

I wonder whether this was an instance of a successful civil uprising rather than an invasion. The continuity of the locale, instead of its complete destruction might well be an indicator that people of the same ilk caused the specific damage to some areas and the subsequent re-building.

Yes, that was the most probable scenario, but then 'my' Natufians wouldn't fit in, lol.

[lightly]

woops!.... sorry

Edited by lightly, 19 September 2012 - 11:44 AM.

[Macroramphosis]

Abramelin, are you able to tell us whether the timeline of the "uprising" saw a cessation of the sacrificial cult afterwards ? Or is the time-scale and testing too distant to reconcile such a deliberate question ?

[Abramelin]

Macroramphosis, on 19 September 2012 - 12:05 PM, said:

Abramelin, are you able to tell us whether the timeline of the "uprising" saw a cessation of the sacrificial cult afterwards ? Or is the time-scale and testing too distant to reconcile such a deliberate question ?

Difficult to say; as you may have read, the habit/culture of human sacrifice later spread southwards into what much later became Canaan, Phoenicia and so on.

I think the problem is that not all layers of all the mentioned sites have been excavated and/or searched.

So because of that I could happily speculate about what could have been going on back then: revolution, change, war with invaders or what you said, a civil uprising.

The German site I linked to in post 29

http://www.unexplain...15#entry4464072

suggests a more egalitarian society after the 'change'. But it is possible they will find a new site, just a bit younger but also nearby and belonging to the same culture, that suggests human sacrifice continued.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 19 September 2012 - 02:11 PM.

[Abramelin]

I find it kind of interesting to notice you will never read about this practice of human sacrifice in connection with the Göbekli culture, though, as I have shown (Çayönü & Nevalı Çori), there is definite proof it took place.

Maybe their intention is that we all should be stuck with that image of a Biblical Eden in our heads, as several publications/articles suggest.

To attract Jewish, Christian and Muslim tourists?

[Macroramphosis]

What a fascinating read from the German site, Abramelin. Thanks for that. Some absolutely mind-boggling facts about that era, the town and its inhabitants. It almost deserves a thread of its own. I find the complete lack of violence, and by perception, crime, incredible. Interesting that in that particular archeological instance they find no remnants of human sacrifice as well.

It sounds truly utopian.......feasts, dancing, no war and no violence. I notice there is no mention of religion. Is that somewhere else on the site ?