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Why Do Great Nations Fall?


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#31    Antilles

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 12:43 PM

View PostThe Gremlin, on 17 August 2012 - 12:41 PM, said:

Gibbon?

Doesnt quite broach the socio-economic factors involved in the 'decline', and his point where decline started is often questioned too.....as is his definition of 'decline'.

edit to add: great read though, and valuable resource.

Do you realise that your signature is larger than your response? :yes:


#32    Eldorado

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 12:46 PM

View PostWearer of Hats, on 16 August 2012 - 10:13 PM, said:

Add to that "too many wars or not enough wars".

How about these?

God hates:
  • A proud look.
  • A lying tongue.
  • Hands that shed innocent blood.
  • A heart that devises wicked plots.
  • Feet that are swift to run into mischief.
  • A deceitful witness that uttereth lies.
  • Him that soweth discord among brethren.
-- King Solomon

It's human nature to destroy.  We bore easily.

IMO

Edited by Eldorado, 17 August 2012 - 12:53 PM.


#33    Subsonicjourno

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 12:54 PM

A big cause for the fall of Rome and the Byzantines was also because of a succession of terrible and corrupt leaders. The Byzantines especially were brought to the edge of destruction several times by useless emperors and were saved when good men deposed the bad ones. Alexios Komenos and Heraclius to name two of the most important saviours. Corruption was the eventual cuase of their downfall as well as Constaninople being sacked during the fourth 'crusade'.


#34    The Gremlin

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 12:58 PM

View PostAntilles, on 17 August 2012 - 12:43 PM, said:

Do you realise that your signature is larger than your response? :yes:

And unlike my response we find words of true genius therein. :whistle:

I rarely talk about such things but I once shoveled 18 tons of material in 11 min-
utes. It was under ideal conditions which allowed use of the legs and gravity
but I know no one who could have matched it and I do know work
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#35    lightly

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 03:52 PM

. . .  leadership?

Important:  The above may contain errors, inaccuracies, omissions, and other limitations.

#36    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 08:20 PM

View PostLucidElement, on 17 August 2012 - 06:18 AM, said:

if any of you think communication is an issue?

You skip post17. Can give more info.

JFK: "And we are as a people, inherently and historically, opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.
For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#37    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 08:23 PM

View Postlightly, on 17 August 2012 - 03:52 PM, said:

. . .  leadership?

Ofcourse. But after leaders become socialy alienated from the core of society.
Perfect example how leadership is/was important is Temujin and Mongol empire. Strenght of Mongol empire lied in leadership.

JFK: "And we are as a people, inherently and historically, opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.
For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#38    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 08:28 PM

View PostEldorado, on 17 August 2012 - 12:46 PM, said:

It's human nature to destroy.  We bore easily.

IMO

Maybe it destructive creativity (economic term) which we can see it in history?
Yes we are bore easily after we reach our goal. You might want to read Schopenhauer philosophy.

JFK: "And we are as a people, inherently and historically, opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.
For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#39    LucidElement

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 11:18 AM

View PostJackofalltrades, on 17 August 2012 - 11:11 AM, said:

I agree every Nation has to play the game... But if they all did then there would be no need for wars or any famine or anything else that goes on in this day and age, due to the fact that everyone would have what they needed (food water etc) and would also be a lot happier if they all only worked together or at least lived and let live...






Its NOT just like that in the USA it's also seems like that in the UK...

Communication (or lack of it) definitely has a BIG part of it, so does Greed and a whole lot of other things...
Hey Jack, I just want to ask ya or comment rather.. Your summary and agreeance of "every nation has to play the game and if they did that then there would be no need for wars" I have to kindly disagree. Because, if every nation plays the "game" they will (IMO) see other nations playing a different game and either seeing them more fortunate or less fortunate, and want most likey part of that better game, therefore start a war or disputes. Do ya kind'a see where I'm coming from? I don;t think anyone will ever be happy with what they have (as a nation) and that may inturn lead to a downfall. For example, Country A, if they agreed upon everything and they played the game of happiness and agreeance... then Country B, does the same thing... What's stopping country A from looking at Country B and saying hey, Country B is living better then us and why!

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#40    LucidElement

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 11:24 AM

View PostThe Gremlin, on 17 August 2012 - 12:36 PM, said:

"why do great nations fall?"

Thats the whole point behind the Atlantis story isnt it?

plato was addressing a question that was nagging his fellow Athenians....

The conclusion is the same for him as that given by Thucydides.......Democracy....

Puting power into the hands of the merchant classes and tradesmen who were not best suited for rule....greedy for profit, and rapine empire.
Plato only documented on Atantis what he heard through the family grapevine. I truly, don't believe he saw it with his eyes. (However, again, I am a believer and there sure as heck could be atlantis out there, but without getting OFF topic, because I hate that...) I just want to say, Plato and Atlanatis was just Plato expressing what he heard through his bloodline...

"According to Plato's Timaeus, Critias learned through his family that the Greek statesman Solon (a distant ancestor of Plato) heard about it from Egyptian priests during a visit to Saïs, Egypt in about 590 B.C. The priests claimed to have access to records about Atlantis written on pillars within the temple. Plutarch writes: "His [Solon's] first voyage was to Egypt . . . [where he] spent some time in study with Psenophis of Heliopolis and Sonchis the Saite, the most learned of all the priests; from whom, as Plato says, getting knowledge of the Atlantic story, he put it into a poem, and proposed to bring it to the knowledge of the Greeks." But a little further on: "Now Solon having begun his great work in verse, the history or fable of the Atlantic Island, which he had learned from the wise men of Saïs, and thought it convenient for the Athenians to know, abandoned it . . . because of his age, and being discouraged at the greatness of the task." (Life of Solon, 90 A.D.) "..... (BUT AGAIN, PLEASE ALL DO NOT GET OFF TOPIC..) Im more curious about the post at hand =)

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#41    LucidElement

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 11:26 AM

View PostAntilles, on 17 August 2012 - 12:36 PM, said:

Well man, since it's been a long time since you've been on this 'sight', maybe you could read "The Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire'. Give you some tips.
HAHA, sorry I spelled it sight and not site. My Bad.. And i have skimmed the Rise and the Fall of the Roman Empire. I actually just got back from Rome.. But that is theorizing if not documenting one country, nothing as a whole.

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#42    LucidElement

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 11:32 AM

Everyone is so focused on just ROME, what about other great nations that have fallen? The Egyptians, once extremely powerful, the Incas, the Mayans.. I mean all so strong yet all fell.. Ya Disease, war, catastrophes, but you read back on those nations/civilizations you must think to yourself. Hey, these individuals did things that humans today still cant figure out, yet they stood there ground for so long. But how could they not stay afloat. I just feel like if you are so powerful and you accompish incredible feat's like these nations/civilzations have, how did they not overcome them and what is stopping top nations today from facing the same head on collision?

"The Truth Is Out There, Its Up To Us To Find The Answers."

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#43    The Gremlin

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 12:45 PM

View PostLucidElement, on 18 August 2012 - 11:24 AM, said:

Plato only documented on Atantis what he heard through the family grapevine. I truly, don't believe he saw it with his eyes. (However, again, I am a believer and there sure as heck could be atlantis out there, but without getting OFF topic, because I hate that...) I just want to say, Plato and Atlanatis was just Plato expressing what he heard through his bloodline...

"According to Plato's Timaeus, Critias learned through his family that the Greek statesman Solon (a distant ancestor of Plato) heard about it from Egyptian priests during a visit to Saïs, Egypt in about 590 B.C. The priests claimed to have access to records about Atlantis written on pillars within the temple. Plutarch writes: "His [Solon's] first voyage was to Egypt . . . [where he] spent some time in study with Psenophis of Heliopolis and Sonchis the Saite, the most learned of all the priests; from whom, as Plato says, getting knowledge of the Atlantic story, he put it into a poem, and proposed to bring it to the knowledge of the Greeks." But a little further on: "Now Solon having begun his great work in verse, the history or fable of the Atlantic Island, which he had learned from the wise men of Saïs, and thought it convenient for the Athenians to know, abandoned it . . . because of his age, and being discouraged at the greatness of the task." (Life of Solon, 90 A.D.) "..... (BUT AGAIN, PLEASE ALL DO NOT GET OFF TOPIC..) Im more curious about the post at hand =)

I think you missed my point.
Plato was addressing an Athenian audience in Democratic Athens.....with its empire diminished since losing in the Peloponnesian War against the Spartans.
"How could the state have fallen so?".....would have been the sentiment that he's concerned most with.
After the war 30 oligarchs got together and took power, backed by the Spartans.....and a dark time of political killings followed...the 30 Tyrants were ousted...and democratic order restored.....

Since many of the 30 were students of Socrates (like Plato), the ugly thinker was put on trial for ungodliness and corruption of youth (a theme earlier exploited by Aristophanes).....and he was executed.

Socrates was anti-democratic......so was Plato.

So forget the whole "does Atlantis exist?" argument....Plato was using the story as a vehicle for his political theory.

He was explaining to the Athenians why they have suffered, and continue to do so.

Like Atlantis, Athens' purity in the eyes of the gods became corrupted by placing the 'helm' of the state at the hands of tradesmen and merchants, who greedily eyed the foreign markets of friends and foes alike; progressing to enforce their will on them, alienating itself, and inviting resistance, and the nemesis of the gods.

Hubris............believing they were destined to be 'protectors' of allied peoples
Ate.....exploiting allies, and using a powerful navy to force them to pay tribute, becomming the oppressors they once sought to protect their people from.
Nemesis.....the plague, numerous seiges, military disasters, final defeat to a more 'noble' State............and in the case of the story of Atlantis......Natural disasters at the hands of the gods.

This sentiment was one shared by other oligarchs and supporters of Oligarchy......most notably Thucidides in his "History Of The Peloponnesian War"

My point was that Plato's model can perhaps be applied in most, if not all, cases to some degree of Great Nations falling.

:unsure2:

edited:  for clarity and to add....

Quote


"Until philosophers rule as kings or those who are now called kings and leading men genuinely and adequately philosophise, that is, until political power and philosophy entirely coincide, while the many natures who at present pursue either one exclusively are forcibly prevented from doing so, cities will have no rest from evils,... nor, I think, will the human race." (Republic 473c-d)


Edited by The Gremlin, 18 August 2012 - 01:28 PM.

I rarely talk about such things but I once shoveled 18 tons of material in 11 min-
utes. It was under ideal conditions which allowed use of the legs and gravity
but I know no one who could have matched it and I do know work
.
...Cladking
If you were a dragon wouldn't you rather eat fat, alocohol fill, Nordic giants, than stringy little Chinamen?   Draconic Chronicler.
You claim you do research and then disregard the fact the Pyramids were built by God, which is why no man-made computer can replicate it.  The Interpreter

#44    Gatofeo

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 09:12 PM

I recall in the early 1970s, reading or hearing of a list of precursors to the fall of civilizations. I don't recall all of them, but they're very telling:

1. A preoccupation with sex.
2. When citizens have a great deal of leisure time (slavery in many civilizations allowed this, today machinery does).
3. The nation goes far beyond its borders to extend its influence.
4. When garbage replaces art (hip-hop, Sydney Pollock, Mappelthorpe, heavy metal, rap, needlessly violent movies, etc. all come to mind).
5. The inability of the citizens to communicate with, or influence, their leaders (basically, the king or council refuse to listen).

That's all I recall. As I remember, there were 10 signs.
I've thought of this list often through the decades, looked around me, and wondered what went wrong. This list explained it.

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My attempts to sleep at night, in my bed
All that moaning and groaning
Keep me awake until morning
Oh wait --- it's that couple next door, newly wed!

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#45    Ninhursag

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 02:00 PM

I Don't Think People And Their Mentalities Were Much Different in The Past .. Actually I Think That In Most Respects People Have Not Changed At All .. It Is Only A Matter Of Time When Our "Great Nation" Will Fall ..

~ Nothing In Nature Is By Chance... Something Appears To Be Chance Only Because Of Our Lack Of Knowledge. - Brauch De Spinoza ~




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