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Why Do Great Nations Fall?


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#46    cladking

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 06:55 PM

View PostNinhursag, on 19 August 2012 - 02:00 PM, said:

I Don't Think People And Their Mentalities Were Much Different in The Past .. Actually I Think That In Most Respects People Have Not Changed At All .. It Is Only A Matter Of Time When Our "Great Nation" Will Fall ..

View PostNinhursag, on 19 August 2012 - 02:00 PM, said:

I Don't Think People And Their Mentalities Were Much Different in The Past .. Actually I Think That In Most Respects People Have Not Changed At All .. It Is Only A Matter Of Time When Our "Great Nation" Will Fall ..

There's nothing new under the sun and remarkably enough, there never really was.

People are blinded by their place and time and the smoke and mirrors that are civil-
ization and rarely glimpse the big picture.  It can stare us right in the face in the form
of a hummigbird or a traffic accident yet we don't see it.  We see our prejudices and
preconceptions.  We see everything that supports what we believe and nothing else.

Men fear the pyramid, time fears man.

#47    Dragonwind

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 08:04 AM

Cultural and racial (or nationals vs non nationals if you want to be politically correct) homogeneity. There is more communication in the US than ever before in some ways but in other ways cultural and racial barriers can block or buckle unified national communication. The reason the US is 'falling' (changing would be a better word) is because the demographics of america are changing. It is changing from a 1st world country with mostly european racial and cultural backgrounds to a multicultural nation with diverse backgrounds (mostly 3rd world), values and goals.

The change between America pre and post Columbus was a change in people. The native americans 'fell' because ultimately they were outnumbered and assimilated by the invading europeans. Yes guns, germs and steel naturally gave the invaders an advantage but in the fullness of time it was a change in people that changed america. The same thing is happening again now with mass immigration and population increases amongst ethnic groups, lower population increases amongst the european americans and assimilation between the two. A nation or region is a product of it's people. Change the make up of its people and you change the nation. Same thing in europe. If you take 1st world countries and flood them full of cheap ethnic labour from 3rd world countries you will not have a 1st world country for very long. Greed, communication and environment are factors but the changing genetic makeup of nations is a major factor not to be ignored. People who breed plants and animals know this full well.

Egypt, Rome....they collapsed ultimately because their population make up changed. China has never drastically fallen in thousands of years because it's racial and cultural makeup has not drastically changed and there is a definate (and arguably wise) reason why China wants to keep itself 'xenophobically' han. The UK was similar for a long time but its demographics are now changing rapidly. Not every nation or civlisation 'falls', it is not inevitable for every great nation. Many survive millenia of environmental change, disaster, wars, greed and lack of 'communication'. The nations or civilisations that are exposed to a change in their homogeneity via slavery, mass immigration or by being conquered and overun by another group of people will change the most. This is why Rome is in ruins, Egpyt is in ruins - once a first class high civilisation now a 3rd world country - and why many US cities are in ruins.

Edited by Dragonwind, 21 August 2012 - 09:02 AM.


#48    cladking

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 04:27 PM

View PostDragonwind, on 21 August 2012 - 08:04 AM, said:

The same thing is happening again now with mass immigration and population increases amongst ethnic groups, lower population increases amongst the european americans and assimilation between the two. A nation or region is a product of it's people. Change the make up of its people and you change the nation. Same thing in europe. If you take 1st world countries and flood them full of cheap ethnic labour from 3rd world countries you will not have a 1st world country for very long. Greed, communication and environment are factors but the changing genetic makeup of nations is a major factor not to be ignored. People who breed plants and animals know this full well.

These changes are symptomatic of our unwillingness to change.  The country was rich in vast
resources of almost everything and exploiting these resources required vast consumption and
consumerism.  Waste became rampant as resources were shoveled out of the ground and then
shoveled right back in as garbage or stored in vaults in the ground as gold.

Most of these resources are gone now and used up but our politicians know that people hate
change so we still waste the resources.  Our industry is non-competitive so we erect huge bar-
riers to start up businesses to protect the inefficiency and waste of the status quo which is the
existing business.  There's no accountability or responsibility any longer so Americans have it
in their heads that a CEO who runs a multinational company into the ground deserves millions
upon countless millions of dollars in golden parachutes but an honest man doing a hard day's
work deserves nothing but starvation wages.  This means the US goivernment has to import
millions of people willing to do hard work for very little money.  They are called "illegal" so that
they can be exported if they complain.  If a state passes laws to exclude such illegals they will
be boycotted by one of the worst school systems in the entire country (which ruins more lives
than automobile accidents).  The politicians need this "illegal" immigration to maintain the fict-
ion that waste in government and massive government spending and debt aren't causing infla-
tion.  If we had to pay Americans to do all the hard work being done by "illegals" prices would
soar.

The entire economy is founded on consumption and waste.  Laws are set up which assure bus-
iness wastes as much as it uses through sweetheart deals with power companies to taxes on
income.  Greed drives the wheels that perpetuate the status quo.  Greed takes unto itself the
lifeblood of an economy founded on waste in an era of depleting resources.

It's the American people who vote for those who promise more of the same; lower taxes and more
spending.  There is growing pressure in the lamp with the inflation genii but so long as we ignore it
and the politicians play sleight of hand there's no price to pay and it's our children who will pay
the piper.  It's the willingness to pass problems forward that is a common factor in failures.  It's our
strange belief that people aren't responsible for outcomes or even their own actions that has led
to this situation.  This belief can be traced back to 1899 when Freud spent time in a hotel with his
sister in law and spent the rest of his carrer intellectualizing his dalience and human frailty. His book
which was widely misinterpreted to suggest the existence of a "subconscious mind" which removes
responsibility from the individual can be considered the undoing of society itself. This was Token
and Taboo and was published nearly a century ago.

All human action is based on beliefs.

Be careful what you believe or might find yourself living in a time when criminals are given huge am-
ounts of money and positions of authority while honest men doing hard work are sneered at and are
called "illegal".

Men fear the pyramid, time fears man.

#49    cladking

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 04:51 PM

...you'll find yourself living in a time when the principal is the biggest bully in the schoolyard and political correctness takes precedence even over kids learning how to read and write.

...you'll find yourself living in a time when people are murdered to force children into illegal gangs and the media excuses it as "caught in the cross-fire".

...you'll find yourself living in a time when the only distinction between the political parties is "great taste... ...less filling".

Men fear the pyramid, time fears man.

#50    keithisco

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 05:28 PM

It is really very simple...
you allow the creation of a ruling elite - in Democracies it is the 2 party system, and the belief that certain families are "better" than others in ruling a country. This is true throughout time.
Eventually, the common people realise this and then the door opens to revolution because most people prefer to have a real say in their destiny. Unfortunately, revolution often leads to despotism (USSR is an example, as is Uganda and Iran).

History is repeating itself in our own lifetime, both in the USA and the UK where 2 parties control everything that we do, we are all too stupid to vote for a 3rd alternative because the 2 Party system scares us into believing that a vote for a 3rd party will give victory to one of the 2 main parties....

We deserve what we get


#51    questionmark

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 05:33 PM

View Postkeithisco, on 21 August 2012 - 05:28 PM, said:

We deserve what we get

Don't know, but surely in any democracy we get what we deserve.

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#52    cladking

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 07:54 PM

View Postkeithisco, on 21 August 2012 - 05:28 PM, said:

It is really very simple...
you allow the creation of a ruling elite - in Democracies it is the 2 party system, and the belief that certain families are "better" than others in ruling a country. This is true throughout time.
Eventually, the common people realise this and then the door opens to revolution because most people prefer to have a real say in their destiny. Unfortunately, revolution often leads to despotism (USSR is an example, as is Uganda and Iran).

History is repeating itself in our own lifetime, both in the USA and the UK where 2 parties control everything that we do, we are all too stupid to vote for a 3rd alternative because the 2 Party system scares us into believing that a vote for a 3rd party will give victory to one of the 2 main parties....

We deserve what we get

Yes.

It's we the people voting for these guys.  It's we the people not holding anyone responsible.

Come November and the ruling elite will get an overwhelming 95% of the vote.  They'll cut taxes, lower standards across the board and make our mockery of an educational system just a little bit worse.

It's we the people at fault and it's we the people afraid of change because most of us are beholden to the status quo.  And it's we the people who will be replaced by other people when the system eventually collapses.

Men fear the pyramid, time fears man.

#53    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 09:00 PM

View PostNinhursag, on 19 August 2012 - 02:00 PM, said:

I Don't Think People And Their Mentalities Were Much Different in The Past .. Actually I Think That In Most Respects People Have Not Changed At All .. It Is Only A Matter Of Time When Our "Great Nation" Will Fall ..

Yes it depends what number of genereation of that "great nation are we". But after one fell soon other took place. Other dynasties, other regime, new order. And then things start all over from beging.
If one empire/state/nation have that uninterupted line its China. (And Im aware of Manchu and Mongol rule)

JFK: "And we are as a people, inherently and historically, opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.
For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#54    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 09:14 PM

View Postcladking, on 20 August 2012 - 06:55 PM, said:

We see everything that supports what we believe and nothing else.

Because we have to bring food on tables. But give human a time you ll see how his creativity and imagination bring beautifull scientific ideas, art, music, philosophic thoughts, novel and similar.

JFK: "And we are as a people, inherently and historically, opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.
For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#55    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 09:17 PM

@Dragonwind

Arabs caliphates fell but they didnt changed. I know many countries/empires that ruled diffrent ethnics diffrent racial and still had no problems.

Who do you think that change USA most? Latinos? African Americans?

Edited by the L, 21 August 2012 - 09:20 PM.

JFK: "And we are as a people, inherently and historically, opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.
For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#56    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 09:22 PM

I cant remember does anyone mention war as cause?

JFK: "And we are as a people, inherently and historically, opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.
For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#57    lightly

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 12:01 AM

View Postthe L, on 21 August 2012 - 09:17 PM, said:

@Dragonwind

Arabs caliphates fell but they didnt changed. I know many countries/empires that ruled diffrent ethnics diffrent racial and still had no problems.

Who do you think that change USA most? Latinos? African Americans?
.. i'd like to answer that too L , in a way.     Lately, the most drastic change to the "USA"  was the European , and then everybody else,  invasion  which nearly  eradicated the Amerindians .    I sort of consider the Amerindians as great fallen nations.

Important:  The above may contain errors, inaccuracies, omissions, and other limitations.

#58    LucidElement

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 05:35 AM

View PostNinhursag, on 19 August 2012 - 02:00 PM, said:

I Don't Think People And Their Mentalities Were Much Different in The Past .. Actually I Think That In Most Respects People Have Not Changed At All .. It Is Only A Matter Of Time When Our "Great Nation" Will Fall ..
people and their mentalities were much different in the past IMO. People were more focused as a whole, thats why great nations were built. Communicating amongst each other, agreeing on many things, working together to rise and become powerful. Today, everyone seems to be doing there own thing, and more likely then not, always taking short cuts and doing it the quickest way. I definitely have to disagree Nin.

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#59    Bama13

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 03:11 PM

View PostLucidElement, on 17 August 2012 - 06:18 AM, said:

So many of you think it has to do with Social Order and not lack of communication amongst individuals, primarily not having everyone work together to build a stronger empire, government, etc. For example, when hurricane katrina struk New Orelans, many people went crazy and started looting houses, killings happend everyone seemed to be against each other instead of working together to fix the greater problem. On the other hand, when the hurricane hit japan, they interviewed a couple of Japanese, and they said "why would anyone want to harm each other and not work together, when in deed the population of Japan is working together to fix the solution" Right there shows a powerful communication and understanding. I feel like the USA is splitting and lack of communication is is destroying the "UNITED" title of our great country. Greed I agree with, that definetly posses a problem, but I am still eager to see if any of you think communication is an issue?

Yet here in Florida where hurricanes are almost a yearly occurance, usually several times a year, most people pull together. Two cat 3 hurricanes (the same strenght as Katrina), hit Pensacola in less than a year. Folks from all over pitched in and helped out. It all depends on the people. I remember a lot of people from my home town in Alabama heading down to Miami after Andrew to lend them a hand in salvaging and/or rebuilding.

" Mighty little force is needed to control a man whose mind has been hoodwinked; contrariwise, no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything —you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him" - Robert Heinlein

#60    LucidElement

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Posted 24 August 2012 - 02:38 AM

Here is an interesting thought I just had. Back in the day, ancient egypt, rome, incans, what not.. Do you think if people have to pull together to build a structure we could all do it? Say a structure as vast as the pyramids. Do you think it would be as easy to gather people and convince them to build it. Obviously, times have changed and people would do it for money. But if it came down to it, and we needed a structure for survival, would people do it or would they be slackers and look the other way. Granted, ancient egyptians (i guess u can think they were slaves, and or did not know any better) but im just asking do you think it would be as easy to gather a nation as a whole to build a vast structure if need be?

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