164 replies to this topic

[SSilhouette]

Hmmm I was under the impression that people were allowed to explore the paranormal at this website without ridicule?  Perhaps I was mistaken.

In any event, we are for the purposes of this thread, assuming that the thousands of eyewitness accounts of ghost sightings each year, at least a small percentage of them are viable.  And of that percentage we are exploring the topic of how when mediums or EVPs ferret out the nature of their haunting, it always seems to revolve around suicide or murder or obsessions.  Not that each and every DEAD PERSON'S ghost is mentally ill; only that it seems like a lot of them are.

For those who claim that it is impossible for a person's spirit to be mentally ill, we have to assume that a spirit doesn't exist as awareness separate from the body.  Yet many near death accounts hold witnesses that swear when a person is revived that the events down the hallway [for example] reported by the revived patient who could not have known about them down to impossible details, were precisely as described.  Respected medical professionals are baffled and uphold these accounts.  So accurate are their reports that they compel us to be sceptical as to the sceptics who have made a religion out of refusing to believe at all costs......

[SSilhouette]

I think the best part of this topic is that if mental/spiritual illness is reponsible for a lot of hauntings, that "therapy" for the ghost might be able to be developed.  Already that's kind of what purifications are about but not as much as I'd like to see.  Some of these ghost shows are way off the mark.  They run around yelling "are you here?  Can you see us?"... which may seem frightening to the affected spirit because "of course they're here.  And of course they see the living...why can't the living see me??...am I really dead??!  Oh god!..oh nononon...oh god no!!"  And so on...

I think the trauma from being shockingly dislodged from the body, still retaining awareness and therefore for all intents and purposes from the dead person's POV, they ARE alive..I think that would be very unnerving to have people milling around you and completely "ignoring" you.  Because you can see yourself.  You can see them.  Why can't they see you???  I think just that might drive someone mad.

The whole point of my opening this topic up was so that we could be more compassionate towards those spirits who still feel they are alive and treat them with the same dignity and respect as anyone would a living person.  I hope that we would stop treating them like some parlor game for our amusement.

[coldethyl]

Well when we have proof that dying is being shockingly dislodged from the body this whole topic might make more sense, but I doubt it.

It could just be a peaceful lifting sensation.  It could be reincarnation.  It's all based on BELIEF and not FACT, like actual mental illness is.

[SSilhouette]

No, it's actually based on eyewitness accounts:  http://www.nderf.org.../NDERF_NDEs.htm

[coldethyl]

SSilhouette, on 31 October 2012 - 03:54 AM, said:

No, it's actually based on eyewitness accounts:  http://www.nderf.org.../NDERF_NDEs.htm

Eyewitness accounts are the least accurate form of proof next to circumstantial evidence.

And NDE's are not proof of an afterlife.  It could just be as most scientists believe, the lack of oxygen and blood flow to the brain that causes hallucinations.  http://www.csicop.or..._final_chapter/

[HollyDolly]

Well it might be as you say.My mom died in 1982,my dad in 1996. I once in awhile have a dream with one  or both in it,but they don't haunt me. They are I'm sure happy in whatever place in Heaven they are at. Like all of us, they had their good and bad points. However, both shared a belief in a loving God, and had no fear of Him.Whatever their sins, they believed they would be forgiven.My dad when ill said he wasn't afraid of dying, having stared it in the face during the war.
For others, there those who don't want to die,they still want to experience life in all it's form,or they might have unfinished business. They spiritually haven't evovled,and so maybe stuck on a lower plane, than other spirits. And I would also assume that those who were in mental hospitals might act the same way as they did in life.
We won't know the answers ourselves until we pass on,but you make some good points.

[JGirl]

as was pointed out in another thread (about nde) one is not actually dead when they experience it.
that's why it's called a near death experience, not a death experience. although countless people have related similar experiences it isn't death they've experienced or they would not be here to tell about it.
in my opinion using examples from those who've had a near death experience is not relevant to this discussion, which isn't really a discussion at all - more like bickering over a point that should have rendered this topic moot.

Edited by JGirl, 31 October 2012 - 04:30 PM.

[SSilhouette]

There have been many cases where people are clinically dead, sometimes for hours and then are revived.  You still haven't accounted for their experiences that took them to remote places [while their body lay on a marble slab or long covered with a sheet on a gurney] where they came back and described details they could not possibly have known.

[JGirl]

SSilhouette, on 06 November 2012 - 01:17 AM, said:

There have been many cases where people are clinically dead, sometimes for hours and then are revived.  You still haven't accounted for their experiences that took them to remote places [while their body lay on a marble slab or long covered with a sheet on a gurney] where they came back and described details they could not possibly have known.

please provide sources for your claims, especially those which prove that they were pronounced clinically dead.

[adrianz2493]

That's actually very interesting, I never thought of it that way. I mean I'm pretty sure spirits do exist or any energy that's  left by us.  I'm not sure but I do believe some spirits or energy stay here because they believe that they are still alive. I mean it kinda makes sense. But is just my opinion of course.

[SSilhouette]

I will post the link to this site below.  There are hundreds if not thousands of accounts to read there.  I'll give excerpts of a few of them here:

Quote

Barbra gently explained that I could not possibly have gotten out of bed. She made no comment about my choice of language. Then after lowering the side rails, she helped me to sit on the edge of the bed. With me holding onto the IV stand as a crutch and Barbra holding me up on the other side, she helped me to stand. I was quite shaky and it was one of the most difficult things I have ever done. But the paralyses went away, some.

I had been wearing an open-back hospital robe. (At this point, modesty was not an issue.) But Barbra told me my family had brought me some new clothing, including some shorts. They were in the closet, which was a cabinet (a wardrobe) by the window. It stood away from the wall and was maybe six feet tall with two doors in the front and a drawer in the bottom. As she was helping me into my shorts, I told her I just remembered that someone had left an L.E.D. sign on the top of the wardrobe. I could tell it shocked her when I said this.

She asked, “What did it say?” I explained that the sign had not been not turned on, so it had been dark. Then she helped me back into bed and said she would be right back. She returned with a doctor who questioned me about the sign.

I told him that the sign was twenty-four inches long by four inches wide. It had a dark color (black or gray) plastic face with red L.E.Ds. It was not turned on, so it had no message. The doctor stood on a chair to get the sign and lifted it up so I could see it. It was the same sign that I had just described. Then he explained that it had been left high up in the room to help with a study of Out Of Body Experiences  http://www.nderf.org...opher_m_nde.htm

Quote

I could see my ambulance stopped on the side of the road while the EMTs were working on me because I had bled out and had no pulse or breathing function. [The Life Flight chopper had been grounded due to fog.] Suddenly I found myself inside the car which my husband and my brother were driving to the hospital. My brother was holding a gun and was telling my husband if I didn't make it that he was going to kill him, as well. I was screaming at my brother, "NO! NO!" but he could not hear me...

..The EMT that was working on me later said he saw my lips move even though I was not breathing, and so he slapped me really hard. Then I started breathing again and showing a weak pulse. Later, in surgery, I left again. This time I was in a cold, cave-like tunnel with water running down the walls. I looked ahead down the tunnel and an awful heat hit my face, taking my breath away, choking me. I could see people reaching out of the bottom of the tunnel for me. I remember wanting to give them a drink of the water that was running down the walls but I was told I could not. Then I was told that I was not going to die now, but that I had been shown both sides of the afterlife and it was up to me to choose which place I would eventually go to. I realized I was being given another chance. When I awoke in ICU, I signaled for a pen and paper (I was on life support and could not speak) and asked for my brother, the one who had been in the car with my husband. Neither of them had arrived yet. I never told anyone why I had wanted to see him. Later, after I had recovered, he told me about threatening my husband. It was exactly what I had witnessed in my out-of-body experience. http://www.nderf.org...ammie_w_nde.htm

Quote

When I entered the operating room and was given anesthesia, they told me to count. I opened my eyes but I had no body. I was seeing everything that was happening from the ceiling. I saw myself sleeping and the doctors operating on me, and I was amazed to see that in the room there was another person who they were operating on. I thought, Wow, the operating room is shared. I was conscious that I was up above without a body, but it was strange sensation. I was not scared at all; it was as if nothing mattered. I could see without eyes. Later, I watched as they transferred me out of the operating room to another place. The hours passed and I kept watching myself sleep, but I didn’t feel tired, nor was I hungry. It was a strange feeling. I watched as the nurses came to check on me frequently. I realized it was because it was past the time that I should have woken up, but I kept sleeping. The doctors got scared and I saw that they gave me a shot in my leg. I felt that whatever was holding me up above had broken, and all of the sudden I had a body. When I awoke, I thought that it was all a dream. But upon leaving the recovery room, I saw the boy that they had been operating on with me in the operating room. I realized that it really was true that my spirit had left my body. http://www.nderf.org...ndy_m_obe.htm  

Quote

I remained floating serenely above my body until I was taken to the operating theater. Once there, my mother-in-law and grandmother vanished. In their place, beside my bed, appeared my late grandfather, clad in a white coat. (He had been a general practitioner/ doctor during his life. However, I had never met him, as he had died when I was seven years old!) He spoke to me about the details of my medical issues and pointed out in terms of centimeters exactly where in my abdomen the three main internal infections were located. He specified this medical information in Latin (I don't speak Latin, but I understood him) and then he, too, disappeared. I immediately re-entered my body, and so I was able to repeat everything my grandfather had just told me, while the surgeon wrote down detailed notes and my husband listened.
A couple of days after the (successful) surgery, I talked with the surgeon. He said he had never spoken to anyone in my condition, (CRP327 – i.e. in such a lot of pain), who had been able to talk so clearly. Also he had never had access before a surgery to such accurate information on where to find the main infected areas. He said that my grandfather's directions, had told him to move certain internal organs aside to get to the third infected location. Without my grandfather's information, he could easily have missed it, especially since at admission, they had diagnosed me with only two internal infections, not three. It was exactly as my grandfather had described it. He had said that there was an area of infected fluid in a "hidden" part of my pelvis and had described, in terms of centimeters, exactly where to drain this infected fluid. It was beneath a bleeding point. http://www.nderf.org.../anna_w_nde.htm

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Edited by SSilhouette, 06 November 2012 - 06:46 PM.

[JGirl]

i'm not asking for personal accounts. they carry no weight with respect to evidence of being clinically dead.
i want to see the documentation that these people were truly clinically dead.

[SSilhouette]

Then you wouldn't be satisfied with a jury's verdict on any case since most evidence is eyewitnesses.  Thousands of eyewitness accounts are impressive enough for me.  There seems to be something going on.

[JGirl]

SSilhouette, on 06 November 2012 - 10:06 PM, said:

Then you wouldn't be satisfied with a jury's verdict on any case since most evidence is eyewitnesses.  Thousands of eyewitness accounts are impressive enough for me.  There seems to be something going on.

ok you don't seem to get it, do you...
it's not enough to just say 'this' or 'that' happened when in a debate. you are making a claim that has no concrete proof. that's fine if you're just talking out your @ss, but you are trying to make it fact here when it is not proven.
it's not that i want to discount what they are saying they experienced, i am simply trying to get at the so called facts you are presenting in this thread.
to begin with i don't see how the topic of nde's is even relevent to your claim that some 'ghosts' are mentally ill, never mind whether they (the ones who have the experience) are clinically dead or not at the time.
you are jumping around changing gears because your original argument is not going the way you would like.
being impressive enough for you is fine - for you. it doesn't wash in a structured argument though, sorry. there may well be something going on but it's not tied in to what you're trying to imply here.

[JGirl]

SSilhouette, on 06 November 2012 - 10:06 PM, said:

Then you wouldn't be satisfied with a jury's verdict on any case since most evidence is eyewitnesses.

actually this is not the case.
actually eyewitness accounts are not strong evidence at all, and they do not make up the majority of evidence in a given case brought before a jury.
where do you get this stuff?.