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The Pope Has a Problem in Rome


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#76    GoSC

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 04:41 PM

View PostMichaelW, on 09 October 2012 - 12:40 AM, said:

And you do know what figures these represented? The total populations of the countries involved?



As I said earlier, he was the first Prime Minister of Israel.

The figures were pure propaganda. The real truth is the number of combatants committed to the 1948 war by the Arab nations TOTAL was 45,000-55,000 at the zenith of the war's escalation. The total number Arab combatants NEVER ONCE outnumbered the total number of Jewish combatants. Alot of people are ignorant of this fact because the history of the State of Israel and its war of independence contains many such myths.

Another fact that is ignored is Plan Dalet, in which ethnic cleansing and the invasion of Arab UN partitioned land was preplanned.

BTW, during WWII, Egypt declared itself neutral and did not enter the war until 1945 and even then participated very little.


British Preparations for War

Never pro-British at the best of times, the Egyptians were further disenchanted by British slowness to reinforce the country as the war clouds gathered. In August 1939, Egypt had agreed to participate in its own defence: providing patrols along the western frontier; defending the desert south-west of Cairo; protecting the railway between Alexandria and Mersa Matruh; providing units to help defend Alexandria (including coastal artillery) and to protect against sabotage. Although distrustful of Egyptian commitment and capability, the British had little option but to take advantage of the additional manpower on offer. With their Egyptian bases at least notionally protected, the British were able to concentrate on mobile operations in the desert.

At the end of August 1939, British and Egyptian units began moving into position, with the Egyptians deploying according to the agreement. Foremost in these moves was the Sudanese-manned Frontier Force of five squadrons mounted on Ford pick-ups. Two squadrons took up places at Siwa and others at Sollum. The frontier was then almost entirely in Egyptian hands, in accordance with the treaty and the British strategy not to provoke the Italians. The southern desert flank was covered by the ‘South Western Force’ of Egyptian light tanks (six Mk VIB), motorised units and No. 1 Squadron of the Royal Egyptian Air Force (Lysanders). Commanded by Prince Duad and first stationed at Al Bahariya oasis, this force later moved to Cairo and then Kassaba. Although British plans continued to include the use of Egyptian units, there was no guarantee that the Egyptians would actually fight. Egypt would commit to defence only, having refused to declare war unless her territory was attacked. Such was British distrust that they did not permit the raising of a National Guard.

The Outbreak of War

When the war began, relations with the Axis were severed but Egypt remained neutral (not declaring war on the Axis until February 1945). Italy declared war on Britain, but not Egypt, on 10 June 1940. Still, the mobile units continued to patrol the frontier. The Frontier Force squadrons at Siwa were reinforced by four old British Vickers Medium Mk IIA tanks, with crews trained by the Royal Tank Regiment, and a flight of REAF Lysanders. In August 1940, 2nd Lieutenant Pat Clayton led the first mission of the unit that was to become the Long Range Desert Group (LRDG), from Siwa across the sand sea into Libya. The patrol was supported by seven Sudanese-manned Frontier Force trucks carrying petrol, under the command of an Egyptian Mulazim Awal (lieutenant). Although under orders not to, the Egyptian trucks travelled across the frontier, possibly becoming the only Egyptian Army troops to operate in Italian territory during the war.

As late as the summer of 1940, Egyptian forces were still being included in British plans for the defence of Egypt. By then the motorised elements had become known as the Egyptian Mobile Force and it was envisaged that these units, 'if in the desert and operating', would be attached to British formations rather than fight under Egyptian command. For instance, in the event of an attack across the frontier, a light detachment of 7 Armoured Division would be supported by the Egyptian Light Car Regiment and an Egyptian 3.7inch howitzer battery. Other Egyptian units would also have fought under British command as Egyptian brigades were essentially administrative formations and brigade headquarters were incapable of any command function in the event of war. Frequent changes of leadership could only have made matters worse as between August 1939 and October 1942 there were five Egyptian chiefs of staff.

The British relied heavily on the Egyptian army for antiaircraft defence and by mid-1939 most of the AA defences of the Delta and the Suez Canal were Egyptian-manned. Only 22 guns and 24 searchlights in Alexandria and 16 guns in Cairo were manned by British troops. It was planned that these and further reinforcements should be taken over by the Egyptians but the Royal Navy did not agree and the plan was dropped. The Egyptian AA crews were thought unreliable and during the summer of 1940 those in Alexandria were supplemented by a party of specially trained cavalrymen from the Royal Wiltshire Yeomanry. New Zealanders and other Yeomanry formed similar units and an Australian field regiment began training with AA guns. After the first Italian air raids however, the Egyptian AA gunners proved to be their army’s most effective soldiers and during the subsequent campaign were to shoot-down a number of Axis aircraft. They could even beat their British counterparts in competition though one Egyptian commander, a good Muslim, was bemused by the prize - a crate of whisky. Egyptian gunners also manned coastal artillery in Alexandria.

Withdrawal of the Egyptian Army


The Italian invasion of Egypt began on 13 September 1940 and Egyptian troops along the frontier were soon withdrawn as a result of political moves intended to placate the Egyptian government and British doubts as to their reliability. Interestingly this move was missed by Italian intelligence who in November reported that the British were making use of large numbers of Egyptian troops.
One of the myths of Nasser’s Egypt is that the withdrawal caused such deep resentment amongst Egyptian officers that they considered overthrowing the Egyptian monarchy and government. The truth would appear to be somewhat different, the whole force was happy to get away from the dangers and privations of the desert. The Head of the Cairo Branch of the British Secret Service, Major A.W. Sansom, wrote scathingly that, ‘The officers ... spent most of their time with their wives in the Cecil Hotel in Alexandria, and were full of resentment against their hard life in the desert. The troops, who lived on an appalling diet of dried beans and lentil soup with an occasional bit of meat, regarded the officers with envious hatred and were ready to fire the first shots in their backs. As the officers were well aware of this there was a tradition of leading from behind. Officers and men alike panicked in air-raids, and it was a standing joke among British troops, that the Egyptian encampments moved farther from the coast road after each heavy raid.’

There was no doubt that the Egyptians, understandably, had little sympathy for the British or their war. Of the three battalions remaining in the Matruh area, Sansom observed that their morale was low and unlikely to rise unless the British were defeated. ‘If Matruh is attacked, they will not resist, but will probably help the attackers. Our position would be stronger without them even if no replacements are available.’ The Egyptian point of view is best summarised by former Prime Minister Ismail Sidqi who after the invasion had begun said, ‘The Italian offensive is not an aggression against Egypt, but against another belligerent on the territory of a third and occupied power.’

Not surprisingly then, Egyptian contributions to the British counteroffensive, Operation Compass were limited. In November and December 1940, some Egyptian motor transport companies were used briefly to move supplies as part of the build up for the operation. The Frontier Force guarded the line of communications as the British chased the Italians into Libya and patrolled in the regions of Aswan and Wadi Halfa. The AA gunners gave good service but the majority of soldiers continued to serve on guard and logistical tasks. The air force undertook weather patrols and transport duties.


The End of the Beginning

It was well that the British had secured the situation, for the war in the desert soon took a significant turn for the worse. In June 1942, the battle of Gazala ended with an Axis victory, Tobruk fell and British and Commonwealth troops began a headlong retreat out of Libya into Egypt. For a time it appeared that the Axis advance would not be stopped but the storm was weathered and both sides, exhausted by their exertions, eventually faced each other across the Alamein line. The Battle of El Alamein in October and November 1942 was won by the British and the war moved away from Egypt, never to return.

For the British, El Alamein was the ‘end of the beginning’ but this brought little change to the status of the Egyptian Army. The army grew in size to around 100,000 soldiers. Some Egyptians flew on patrol in British planes with British crews and an Egyptian naval service was formed with a few-British supplied patrol boats. The British continued to supply the Egyptians throughout and after the war, in addition to the patrol boats were some 40 aircraft, 38 scout cars and 298 Bren guns. There was however, to be no combat role for the Egyptians. For the remainder of the war, the Egyptian Army was relegated to internal security duties. In 1936 the Egyptian Army had been seen as important for the defence of British interests but peacetime expediency was abandoned in the face of wartime reality when it was recognised that the Egyptians had neither the will nor the capability to undertake a serious military role.


http://www.rothwell....co.uk/Egypt.htm

Edited by Ambush Bug, 09 October 2012 - 04:46 PM.

Church raptured? Ephesians 3:9-11,21
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

#77    GoSC

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 04:54 PM

In 1948 another event strengthened the Egyptian desire to rid the country of imperial domination. This event was the Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel by David Ben-Gurion in Tel Aviv. The Egyptians, like most Arabs, considered the State of Israel a creation of Western, specifically British, imperialism and an alien entity in the Arab homeland. In September 1947, the League of Arab States (Arab League) had decided to resist by force the UN plan for partition of Palestine into an Arab and a Jewish state. Thus, when Israel announced its independence in 1948, the armies of the various Arab states, including Egypt, entered Palestine to save the country for the Arabs against what they considered Zionist aggression. The Arabs were defeated by Israel, although the Arab Legion of Transjordan held onto the Old City of Jerusalem and the West Bank (see Glossary), and Egypt saved a strip of territory around Gaza that became known as the Gaza Strip.

When the war began, the Egyptian army was poorly prepared and had no plan for coordination with the other Arab states. Although there were individual heroic acts of resistance, the army did not perform well, and nothing could disguise the defeat or mitigate the intense feeling of shame. After the war, there were scandals over the inferior equipment issued to the military, and the king and government were blamed for treacherously abandoning the army. One of the men who served in the war was Gamal Abdul Nasser, who commanded an army unit in Palestine and was wounded in the chest. Nasser was dismayed by the inefficiency and lack of preparation of the army. In the battle for the Negev Desert in October 1948, Nasser and his unit were trapped at Falluja, near Beersheba. The unit held out and was eventually able to counterattack. This event assumed great importance for Nasser, who saw it as a symbol of his country's determination to free Egypt from all forms of oppression, internal and external. Nasser organized a clandestine group inside the army called the Free Officers. After the war against Israel, the Free Officers began to plan for a revolutionary overthrow of the government. In 1949 nine of the Free Officers formed the Committee of the Free Officers' Movement; in 1950 Nasser was elected chairman."

http://history.sandi...line/egypt.html

Church raptured? Ephesians 3:9-11,21
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

#78    sickpuppy

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 11:58 PM

when my friends were all out partying at clubs and whatnot... i was at home... studying...
now i do what they were doing then, i just enjoy myself.. because what i found in study was too big for me.

i've been sandbagging here since the beginning (how zen) and you go in the same circles i went in... this is all just old to me now.. and i'll be unsubscribing from the discussion. how does it help to go back over the same ground.. with people who are in the same different camps shooting the same different missiles at eachother..

each side strives for its world vision to be realised...
everyone caught in that suffers..
...i know it was all ordained from the beginning
this is what makes it so difficult
/shrug

look..

Quote

The Jewish People have been dwelling the half crescent for about 4,000 years. What happened in 1948 was not creation of Israel but the formation of the third Commonwealth to celebrate the return of the Jews after the last exile.
this is about as deep as i ever cared to get into it.. please ask yourselves why this is, and what's going on here... so Ben Masada comes out and openly tells us, what is essentially 4,000+ years old (and what's the significance of these time periods, folks) is once again in recent times (1948) made manifest.
meanwhile, most of you people think history only goes back 2,000 odd years..

Ben, i tip my hat to you, our people are a force to be reckoned with alright.. and you're exactly where you're meant to be, but all that comes from God.
..i don't want to exist in the coming new world

..I can only hope you love God, Ben?
:st

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Newton's Second Law: For every action there is a equal and opposite reaction. They fart themselves around.

#79    RadicalGnostic

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 05:02 AM

Good grief.  Why can't we all just be at peace with each other?  We should be trading and making money rather than arguing over whose deity gave land to whom.  Instead of stealing resources countries should buy a share of those resources, eliminating the need for armed conflict.

When it comes to peace, I don't trust politicians of any color.  I don't trust Israel to keep peace.  I don't trust Iran to keep peace. I don't trust Palestinians to keep peace.  I sure as heck don't trust NATO to even want peace.  Last thing I want to see is another war based on religious beliefs; in fact, I wonder why the 3 Abrahamic faiths seem to hate each other unto death and use their scriptures to bash each other. Extremist groups of each appear to be hell-bent in quest of mutual destruction, and they seem to be in charge of both Israel and Iran.  So much for peace in the Middle East.

Why can't we live in peace?

RadicalGnostic


#80    GoSC

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 06:16 AM

View PostRadicalGnostic, on 10 October 2012 - 05:02 AM, said:

Good grief.  Why can't we all just be at peace with each other?  We should be trading and making money rather than arguing over whose deity gave land to whom.  Instead of stealing resources countries should buy a share of those resources, eliminating the need for armed conflict.

When it comes to peace, I don't trust politicians of any color.  I don't trust Israel to keep peace.  I don't trust Iran to keep peace. I don't trust Palestinians to keep peace.  I sure as heck don't trust NATO to even want peace.  Last thing I want to see is another war based on religious beliefs; in fact, I wonder why the 3 Abrahamic faiths seem to hate each other unto death and use their scriptures to bash each other. Extremist groups of each appear to be hell-bent in quest of mutual destruction, and they seem to be in charge of both Israel and Iran.  So much for peace in the Middle East.

Why can't we live in peace?

RadicalGnostic

The Palestinians have no standing army at all.

They are completely bound in the Gaza Strip, no access to the sea, barriered with only two exits out. They are not allowed to leave. They dont have an airport and Israel holds them under land and sea blockade.

They are completely bound in the West Bank, Israel is expropriating more land from the Palestinians by building the Separation Barrier aka "Apartheid Wall" that when complete with run 403 miles in length (650 kilometers) with the maximum current height of  25 feet (8 metres). Completely encircling the West Bank to the Jordan River Valley.

Israel at last count has built 269 settlements in the West Bank usually on the hilltops and in East Jerusalem. They have built a spider web of roads linking these settlements together by "Jew only" roads. They even have built two-three lane "Jew only" highways where it is illegal by imprisonment for a Palestinian to travel on. These highways link to Israel beyond the "Apartheid Wall". And all of this is on Palestinian land, where the Palestinians are being herded or ethnically cleansed to live in Palestinian-only bantustan pockets of civilizations often seperated from one another under the shadows of the Jewish settlements on the hilltops.

Posted Image
The Wall around Qalqiliya. A twenty-five foot high concrete cage cuts residents off from their agricultural land, necessary for their survival, and prevents you from traveling even 5 minutes out of the City. A single gate, open at the whims of the occupying army, controls 100,000 residents.

Posted Image

Posted Image
Posted Image

Church raptured? Ephesians 3:9-11,21
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

#81    Ben Masada

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 05:39 PM

View PostAmbush Bug, on 08 October 2012 - 05:12 AM, said:

Against all odds, but that is all the popular myths the Zionists have built around the beginnings of the State of Israel. Like most nations, Israel has a bunch of propagandist myths that do not hold up to historic scrutiny.

Of all the armies involved in the Arab-Israeli war, only Jordan fielded 4,500-5,000 British-trained soldiers. The other nations didnt have British-trained soldiers. None of the Arab armies had been battle tested, very few Arabs served in Her Majesty's armies in WWII. Whereas the Haganah had 60,000 well-organized illegal army under Mandate law, 30,000-35,000 WWII veterans before the war started including a strike force, static defense force, and reservists.

Plan Dalet razed whole Arab Palestinians villages to the ground in concerted efforts by Haganah and the terrorists groups Stern gang and Irgun. When the State of Israel was proclaimed, there were already 200,000 Arab Palestinian refugees. The Jews were invading the lands partitioned by the UN to the Arab Palestinians. The Arab armies inadequetly intervened at this point. The capture of Haifa and the attack on Jaffa created an additional 145,000 refugees fleeing for their lives. By the end of May, there were already 370,000 Arab refugees fleeing from Jewish HELD territories.

The common propagandist myst is 700,000 Jews held their own against 27 million Arabs. Very untrue, the largest estimate forces representing the Arab armies stands at 23,500 at the start of the war. Of which included 4,500-5,000 British-trained soldiers from Jordan. Jordan by the way made a secret pact of non-aggression with the new State of Israel, in order to divide Palestine between themselves. However, while Jordan upheld the pact, Israel didnt. The lowest estimate of Jewish forces at the start of the war was given by David Ben-Gurion himself at 30,574, a more realistic figure would be 60,000-70,000 not including several thousand extremist fighters representing the Stern and Irgun.

At the start of the war,

the highest estimate of the combined Arab armies committed 23,500.

the lowest estimage of Jewish forces committed 30,574* (David Ben-Gurion*, but twice that is a much more realistic estimate)


By the end of the war,

the combined Arab armies committed 45,000-55,000 fighters to the war by its end.

Israel committed between 60,000-100,000 fighters to the war by its end.

So you see there was never a David vs Goliath conflict, the Jews always held the odds in their favor, supported by massive buildup in the shipments of arms from Britain, Czechloslavakia, etc. Often illegal shipments.

After the 1948 war, 85% of the Arab population fled from the lands held by Israel at that time (726,000 out of 859,000).

Of the total population of Arabs at the end of this war, 70% were refugees.

And what do you say about this "ironic" statistic, during this war Jews lost 4,558 soldiers and 1,150 civilians, yet more Israeli soldiers were killed in attacks on Arab Palestine than in the defense of Israel??? This is factually true. Yet we are taught about this miraclous birth of Israel in a David vs Goliath confrontation and how a few Jews held off Arab hordes. History tells another story altogether though.

Zionist mysths? We have held true to historical scrutiny up to this very day. What kind of evidence you need more than that? Whatever we did during the war, it was during the war. In 1929 the Arabs razed Hebron down to about 50 Jewish civilian casualties, when we were not at war. Since they attacked us in 1948 with the intent to push us into the sea, I am sorry that we did not use the same policy and pushed them all into the desert. As a result of our civilized behavior - during a war, mind you - today we have to sleep with snakes in our beds.

Ben


#82    Ben Masada

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 05:55 PM

View PostIdano, on 08 October 2012 - 09:47 AM, said:

OUCH! "Wet-back"? Easy with the name calling Ben Masada.  Please just debate the issue... :no:

Sorry, but this is also part of the issue. Not too long ago I heard on the news that American bolice board have killed some of the Mexican trying a chance  accross the board to make a better life in America. But that's okay. Americans are not Zionists. Here, if we fight back the tens of Jewish lives lost to Palestinians bombing our busses and discotechs, the whole world is up to our throats.

Ben


#83    Ben Masada

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 06:02 PM

View Postunit, on 09 October 2012 - 11:58 PM, said:

when my friends were all out partying at clubs and whatnot... i was at home... studying...
now i do what they were doing then, i just enjoy myself.. because what i found in study was too big for me.

i've been sandbagging here since the beginning (how zen) and you go in the same circles i went in... this is all just old to me now.. and i'll be unsubscribing from the discussion. how does it help to go back over the same ground.. with people who are in the same different camps shooting the same different missiles at eachother..

each side strives for its world vision to be realised...
everyone caught in that suffers..
...i know it was all ordained from the beginning
this is what makes it so difficult
/shrug

look..

this is about as deep as i ever cared to get into it.. please ask yourselves why this is, and what's going on here... so Ben Masada comes out and openly tells us, what is essentially 4,000+ years old (and what's the significance of these time periods, folks) is once again in recent times (1948) made manifest.
meanwhile, most of you people think history only goes back 2,000 odd years..

Ben, i tip my hat to you, our people are a force to be reckoned with alright.. and you're exactly where you're meant to be, but all that comes from God.
..i don't want to exist in the coming new world

..I can only hope you love God, Ben?
:st

My love of God is translated in my struggle to know Him, plus my love for the Land He promised to our forefathers, Abraham, Isaiah and Jacob.

Ben


#84    Ben Masada

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 06:12 PM

View PostRadicalGnostic, on 10 October 2012 - 05:02 AM, said:

Good grief.  Why can't we all just be at peace with each other?  We should be trading and making money rather than arguing over whose deity gave land to whom.  Instead of stealing resources countries should buy a share of those resources, eliminating the need for armed conflict.

When it comes to peace, I don't trust politicians of any color.  I don't trust Israel to keep peace.  I don't trust Iran to keep peace. I don't trust Palestinians to keep peace.  I sure as heck don't trust NATO to even want peace.  Last thing I want to see is another war based on religious beliefs; in fact, I wonder why the 3 Abrahamic faiths seem to hate each other unto death and use their scriptures to bash each other. Extremist groups of each appear to be hell-bent in quest of mutual destruction, and they seem to be in charge of both Israel and Iran.  So much for peace in the Middle East.

Why can't we live in peace?

RadicalGnostic

We have tried to make peace with them but the only peace they want is with the Jews out of the Middle East. That kind of peace is impossible to achieve.  We were the first to agree with the white paper to divide the land with the Palestinian Arabs, but they refused. it is not division they want but "Jews out".  When they put their wish to practice, it becomes only natural that we must defend ourselves. The time of the Holocaust is over with this new kind of Jews.

Ben


#85    Ben Masada

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 06:27 PM

View PostAmbush Bug, on 12 October 2012 - 06:16 AM, said:


They are completely bound in the West Bank, Israel is expropriating more land from the Palestinians by building the Separation Barrier aka "Apartheid Wall" that when complete with run 403 miles in length (650 kilometers) with the maximum current height of  25 feet (8 metres). Completely encircling the West Bank to the Jordan River Valley.

To save lives is more important than to get rid of the charge that  the "Apartheid Wall" has stained Israel with. As a result of the wall, 95% of busses and public places in Israel have escaped Palestinian bombings. Hundreds of Jewish lives have been spared. The wall is much better than to attack them back for revenge and kill many of their people, since, usually, the pertetrators, purposifully hide hunder the beds of their own children in the hope that Israel won't get them. And if we try, which is what they want, they have got two birds with one stone: Our civilians got killed and Israel lost credibility in the eyes of the nations.

Ben





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