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A question for skeptics and non-believers


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#1    Sheetz

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Posted 24 August 2012 - 04:14 PM

Like the title suggests, I have a question for the skeptics and moreso for the absolute non-believers that frequent here.  I would like to add that I am a skeptical believer.  While I would certainly like proof of something in order to believe its true, I'm not close-minded to think there aren't things out there that we cannot prove or see - which is what separates us all...our own personal beliefs.  (please don't infer that I'm calling you close-minded either, it was a reference to myself)

That said, I was wondering about that elusive proof.

For all skeptics and non-believers, what proof (or type of proof) would you need in order to change your mind.  Is there anything you can think of that, if shown to you, would make you believe in ghosts?  (outside of you actually witnessing your own event of course)  Can you give us those things whether its scientific or otherwise which would be deemed as proof and believable by you once said evidence was shown or exhibited?

here's why I ask.  As we all know, a photograph is not proof to the non-believer.  All will be deemed as faked. same goes for video, same goes for audio recordings, same goes for any digitally recorded anomaly, whether auditory or visual.  so....what kind of evidence do you need to have your mind changed...what kind of evidence is there....scientific?  if so, in what way is that evidence presented and how?  I'm curious to see what could possibly be offered to a non-believer to change their minds...I'm guessing there is nothing, but would like to hear otherwise.

What we do know:

no photographs - all non-believers will say in this digital age anything can be doctored
no recordings - will be deemed as outside RF interference or our brains trying to form words from the "noise"
no videos - same outlook as photos
no evps - same as recordings

so...what is left as what could be considered actual and real evidence?

note, I'm not trying to be facetious - I'm genuinely wondering if there is anything at all that could be presented that made you a believer.


#2    Oppono Astos

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Posted 24 August 2012 - 04:26 PM

Simple: Verifiable evidence that stands up to objective and scientific analysis.

Who is the skeptic: the realist who won't accept belief, or the believer who won't accept reality?

#3    Camarel

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Posted 24 August 2012 - 04:37 PM

View PostSheetz, on 24 August 2012 - 04:14 PM, said:

Like the title suggests, I have a question for the skeptics and moreso for the absolute non-believers that frequent here.  I would like to add that I am a skeptical believer.  While I would certainly like proof of something in order to believe its true, I'm not close-minded to think there aren't things out there that we cannot prove or see - which is what separates us all...our own personal beliefs.  (please don't infer that I'm calling you close-minded either, it was a reference to myself)

That said, I was wondering about that elusive proof.

For all skeptics and non-believers, what proof (or type of proof) would you need in order to change your mind.  Is there anything you can think of that, if shown to you, would make you believe in ghosts?  (outside of you actually witnessing your own event of course)  Can you give us those things whether its scientific or otherwise which would be deemed as proof and believable by you once said evidence was shown or exhibited?

here's why I ask.  As we all know, a photograph is not proof to the non-believer.  All will be deemed as faked. same goes for video, same goes for audio recordings, same goes for any digitally recorded anomaly, whether auditory or visual.  so....what kind of evidence do you need to have your mind changed...what kind of evidence is there....scientific?  if so, in what way is that evidence presented and how?  I'm curious to see what could possibly be offered to a non-believer to change their minds...I'm guessing there is nothing, but would like to hear otherwise.

What we do know:

no photographs - all non-believers will say in this digital age anything can be doctored
no recordings - will be deemed as outside RF interference or our brains trying to form words from the "noise"
no videos - same outlook as photos
no evps - same as recordings

so...what is left as what could be considered actual and real evidence?

note, I'm not trying to be facetious - I'm genuinely wondering if there is anything at all that could be presented that made you a believer.

As you said the most likely way i'd believe in the paranormal is witnessing my own event that i can't explain . I'm a sceptic but i do believe in the possibility of ghosts or something of that nature . To answer your question the only way i'd accept  it is some unbiased group of scientific merit analyzing the evidence and deeming it real with an explanation how they've came to this conclusion. Admittedly i become more sceptic everyday mostly from visiting sites like this seeing so many pics,videos etc without seeing anything i believe to be real but that's my opinion i may be wrong . Another thing is the people who post once and never return wasting the good people here's time who try to help them out even though they most likely just made the story up.

Edited by Camarel, 24 August 2012 - 04:38 PM.


#4    Kriegermonch

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Posted 24 August 2012 - 04:42 PM

Speaking only for myself, what I am looking for is not something to make me "believe", per se, but to understand. There is no denying that people are experiencing something. The question is what? Saying that a ghost is a disembodied person, or an echo of someone who used to be alive, is irresponsible, because when asked how you know, it all comes down to belief.

What I want is someone to show me "what", not "if". I know that people are seeing things, but just labeling it then sitting back all pleased with finding proof, isn't enough. I must know why and how! :yes:


#5    White Crane Feather

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Posted 24 August 2012 - 05:03 PM

Scientists would probably have to catch a ghost, "demon", or whatever. Then display it. Even then many would call it a hoax unless it jumped out and bit them.

Honestly the most success I have had with convincing people of the wider realities is through personal experiences. When I teach people how to have OOBEs and they are committed enough to practice, the first time the exit from their body... Their whole world changes. It certainly did for me.

The other thing I find with a lot of skeptics is that they are mostly followers. They will not accept something until a large body of mainstream gurus do. Obviously the people wiling to experiment themselves not included.

A good example is Sakari. He is willing to put his energy where his mouth is.  I can't take any skeptic seriously until they do. Discoveries are not made by people parroting other people. They are made by the people willing to be on the frontlines and the fringe.... The rest of the bantering is irrelevant.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#6    Sheetz

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Posted 24 August 2012 - 05:26 PM

alright...off to an awesome start.  thanks for the replies so far.  I want to bring one example to the table, and before everyone flames me and tears apart the source, know I'm approaching this from a purely objective viewpoint and not advocating the show, its "actors" or anything. Meaning if you take the content presented, then how it was analyzed, what conclusions can we draw?

(Zips up flame retardant suit here! LOL)

In the original GA documentary, the very first one produced by the three guys who formed 4Reel Productions, LLC (not produced by the Travel Channel as this was the first thing they did and didn't have a contract yet) you may be familiar with a scene where the guy exits a room that has a static night vision camera.  As he exits to the right, quite easily seen is a transparent apparition entering from the left, strolls across the field of view going to the right (in essence, following the guy who just exited to the right).  Ok, cool enough right?!?  Cool that they played the tape back while still on camera within minutes of it happening...making it more believable.

Where it gets interesting is in the scientific examination.  They take the footage to a studio engineer...an expert.  He loads the footage and begins to run a series of filters, and most importantly a vectorscope.  If any of you are in the video industry, a know what a vectorscope does, it can analyze the very makeup of video footage.  If compositing, layering, or tampering of the footage in ANY manner was done, the vectorscope will reveal it with ease.  If a digital layer was added (i.e. with After Effects, or any other editing software) it is IMPOSSIBLE to hide it from the vectorscope.  The layers will be separate and different and shown.  In this instance through all the filtering attempts (using filters will also reveal if a layers pixels are different from the ones beneath) which showed it was untampered footage, and lastly the vectorscope showed that no layers were added, the digital information was untouched and therefore HE deemed the video to be clean from tampering.  IMPORTANT, he didn't make a comment or state that he believed the ghost in the video to be real, he ONLY stated that he could 100% verify that the footage he had been given in no way was tampered with, altered or otherwise fabricated.  A vectorscope will prove added layers and effects instantly.  You could use it on today's most expertly added CG in a feature film and the vector scope will separate and show the composited layers....even done by the most expert film house fx people.  A vector scope is not analyzing what we see in the video as real or not, it analyzes the actual digital signals and layering recorded.  It looks at the recorded signal that produces a picture, NOT the picture itself.

Anyhow.....I'm not giving this example as proof or as real or as a plug for that show.  I'm giving the example in reference to my question.  Does that kind of scientific analysis (about the only kind you can definitively do on video footage to see what lies beneath the signal) fall into a category where something could be deemed as real and therefore believable.  Like Seeker states.....what's left, the only proof that would then be accepted is capturing a ghost in a bottle.  Of course a magic bottle. LOL

I am going to do a search and see if I can find the clip of just the expert analysis....but until I find it...what are your thoughts in that instance.

OK guys, the only thing I can find is the full documentary.  So, if you scroll all the way to 35 minutes in (sorry its actually 35:50), you will see the engineers analysis.  Again, I'm only referring to this as a question of:  Is this type of analysis valid enough?? Or should there be more.



Edited by Sheetz, 24 August 2012 - 06:06 PM.


#7    Sheetz

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Posted 24 August 2012 - 07:13 PM

View Postbones101proof, on 24 August 2012 - 06:19 PM, said:

Without pictures, videos, EVP, and personal encounters for non-believers, even  if a non-believer had a personal encounter...What else do you expect to do to make someone believe? I guess I really don't get the question you're trying to ask.

I ask because there a few known skeptics on here that are more than just skeptics. One in particular has his own paranormal group, yet is very serious about the scientific part of all this.  So my question stems from a standpoint of available evidence, since pretty much always, any evidence that is given in the form of a picture, evp, or video, that the skeptics automatically deem it as tampered with or a hoax all together.  So I pose the question as to what type of evidence or scientific analysis IS THERE that would be acceptable and therefore thought of as actual or authentic....being that ALL photographs for instance are just hoaxed.  Or video is just altered.

From that viewpoint, I'm trying to understand what if anything is left to be given as "proof".  That's why I gave the youtube example above.  While the show is thought of as cheesy or hokey by many, in this one particular example, they go the extra step and have an expert forensic video engineer put it through the paces.  Does the fact that he found without a doubt that the video has not been altered prove anything??  Not sure that helps at all...but the best way I can explain my viewpoint.


#8    White Crane Feather

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Posted 24 August 2012 - 08:22 PM

Seen things like that before.... 10 independent experts would be better.... I still doubt it would convince others though. Honestly... I'm a believer in many things  and I'm not even convinced.

To many avenues for deception especially on television. Submit the footage for a scientific paper.  Even then, a materialist will come up with a creative unvarified answer within the scope of possibilities and it will ring true to skeptics.

Even with 10 video experts... The next step would ultimately be to have the skeptic him/her self go there and see it for themselves. If that didn't happen... Then no go. You see skepticism is a state of mind not really a choice.

Edited by Seeker79, 24 August 2012 - 08:26 PM.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#9    Camarel

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Posted 24 August 2012 - 09:03 PM

View PostSeeker79, on 24 August 2012 - 08:22 PM, said:

Seen things like that before.... 10 independent experts would be better.... I still doubt it would convince others though. Honestly... I'm a believer in many things  and I'm not even convinced.

To many avenues for deception especially on television. Submit the footage for a scientific paper.  Even then, a materialist will come up with a creative unvarified answer within the scope of possibilities and it will ring true to skeptics.

Even with 10 video experts... The next step would ultimately be to have the skeptic him/her self go there and see it for themselves. If that didn't happen... Then no go. You see skepticism is a state of mind not really a choice.
Why don't you produce a striking piece of evidence then i guarantee i'll follow you as a saviour ?  Didn't think so whatever religion you're butthurt about  is also '' a state of mind '' as you describe it.


#10    Sheetz

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Posted 24 August 2012 - 09:05 PM

Seeker, so would a better question be, are there any skeptics who have seen or read or watched some evidence that still keeps them on the fence??  what would that evidence be.  Why you may ask?  because there is a fine line between being a skeptic and a total non-believer.  So with that...what is it that exists around us that keeps a skeptic still wondering and questioning (some kind of evidence keeps them partially believing) versus a non-believer who is so determined that nothing exists.  You cannot sway a non-believer without actual proof.  But the throngs of "skeptics" here must have something in mind or witnessed or other that separates them from the total non-believer herd.  What exactly is that skeptic scientific proof (albeit not definitive) that keeps them coming back.   Or is a true skeptic just a non-believer in waiting?  Again, it brings me back to the first question. what kind of evidence would have you change your mind if the other things construed as evidence are too easily tampered with??

Sorry everyone for what seems like talking in circles. Its hard to type the thought process of what to explain....I know what I'm trying to discuss but maybe this is one that works better as speaking about it over typing out my ridiculous thoughts. LOL  oh well.

Edited by Sheetz, 24 August 2012 - 09:07 PM.


#11    White Crane Feather

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Posted 24 August 2012 - 09:10 PM

View PostCamarel, on 24 August 2012 - 09:03 PM, said:


Why don't you produce a striking piece of evidence then i guarantee i'll follow you as a saviour ?  Didn't think so whatever religion you're butthurt about  is also '' a state of mind '' as you describe it.
Well I'm not looking for any followers... I think I made my opinion about that earlier. Yes all things are a state of mind. Back to the op.... What is a striking piece of evidence in your mind? Oh... I have no religion :)

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#12    White Crane Feather

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Posted 24 August 2012 - 09:19 PM

View PostSheetz, on 24 August 2012 - 09:05 PM, said:

Seeker, so would a better question be, are there any skeptics who have seen or read or watched some evidence that still keeps them on the fence??  what would that evidence be.  Why you may ask?  because there is a fine line between being a skeptic and a total non-believer.  So with that...what is it that exists around us that keeps a skeptic still wondering and questioning (some kind of evidence keeps them partially believing) versus a non-believer who is so determined that nothing exists.  You cannot sway a non-believer without actual proof.  But the throngs of "skeptics" here must have something in mind or witnessed or other that separates them from the total non-believer herd.  What exactly is that skeptic scientific proof (albeit not definitive) that keeps them coming back.   Or is a true skeptic just a non-believer in waiting?  Again, it brings me back to the first question. what kind of evidence would have you change your mind if the other things construed as evidence are too easily tampered with??

Sorry everyone for what seems like talking in circles. Its hard to type the thought process of what to explain....I know what I'm trying to discuss but maybe this is one that works better as speaking about it over typing out my ridiculous thoughts. LOL  oh well.
I have been hinting at it the whole time. It's personal experience. even a skeptic can't deni what they themselves have experienced. They will find every creative way to explaine it.... But those folks are not just being skeptical, they are being a material fundamentalist. They have as much faith in their world view as do a religious fundamentalist. But most will never admit to that because it's their Anthima.

emphiricism is flawed.... Just as anecdotes.... Just as personal experience can be flawed, just as circumstantial evidence can be flawed. It takes a greater awareness of the flaws and the strengths of each kind of evidence to start to form a picture of the truth. Fundamentalism is completely flawed and quite useless.





"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#13    coldethyl

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Posted 24 August 2012 - 09:33 PM

The Amazing Randy giving away his 1 million bucks.  :yes:


#14    White Crane Feather

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Posted 24 August 2012 - 09:58 PM

View Postcoldethyl, on 24 August 2012 - 09:33 PM, said:

The Amazing Randy giving away his 1 million bucks.  :yes:
Haha his fake controlled challenge.... Hey I'll offer a million if Somone proves  it dosnt exist.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#15    coldethyl

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Posted 24 August 2012 - 09:58 PM

View PostSeeker79, on 24 August 2012 - 09:58 PM, said:

Haha his fake controlled challenge.... Hey I'll offer a million if Somone proves  it dosnt exist.

Well he asked, I answered.





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