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A question for skeptics and non-believers


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#31    Imaginarynumber1

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Posted 27 August 2012 - 01:22 AM

View PostShankpin, on 27 August 2012 - 01:12 AM, said:

Let me give my example on "experience." Experience is real, it can not be proven scientifically, or captured on a photograph, or film, why? because the experience is memory- thoughts, emotions attached to that memory. This can not be proven by science. But we know we expeienced a certain thing... it's real. It may not be captured by science, forgodsakes, but it's real. Same as spirit. There's no difference.

The problem with memory is that it is not an exact recording of an event like people think it is. Memories can, and often do, change over time. Also what one person experiences and attributes to the paranormal maybe just be something that they are not familiar with or something they misidentified, etc.

And to add, there is no reason for belief in "spirit" outside of religion. It's not testable, observable, or even quantifiable.

Edited by Imaginarynumber1, 27 August 2012 - 01:22 AM.

"You do not teach the paths of the forest to an old gorilla."


"It's a little like wrestling a gorilla. You don't quit when you're tired - you quit when the gorilla is tired."


RAPTORS! http://www.unexplain...pic=233151&st=0


#32    Radian

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Posted 27 August 2012 - 01:26 AM

View PostImaginarynumber1, on 27 August 2012 - 12:42 AM, said:

And to believers every shadow is proof.


No. It's not. Personal experiences are subjective evidence. They are unverifiable, usually unrepeatable and boil down to nothing but personal opinion. Objective evidence is verifiable by outside parties, repeatable, testable, etc. Objective evidence is factual, subjective evidence is not.

Spirit can NOT be proven by science because Spirit is NOT scientific, it's spirit. For example, Dissect a brain and you have physical matter, but to detect memories, feelings, personality It/'s impossible- Can NOT be done even with all of our technology we have, LOL, it can't be proven. Conversely, Spirit can not be scientific- We're discussing the comparison b/t apples and oranges here. That's why I hate these freakin arguements btw.
When we die, we physically die. But, there are things that we are that leave us that are free, such as our emotions, personalities, attachments through emotions, thoughts, basically who we are, our spirit. It moves on. It never dies. It merely stays with us encased in our physical bodies while we are alive, once we die, our spirit frees itself.
It can't be proven. Nor,  wil it never will be.

AND BTW, im NOT religious at all- just to clarify.

Edited by Shankpin, 27 August 2012 - 01:28 AM.

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#33    Imaginarynumber1

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Posted 27 August 2012 - 01:31 AM

View PostShankpin, on 27 August 2012 - 01:26 AM, said:

Spirit can NOT be proven by science because Spirit is NOT scientific, it's spirit. For example, Dissect a brain and you have physical matter, but to detect memories, feelings, personality It/'s impossible- Can NOT be done even with all of our technology we have, LOL, it can't be proven. Conversely, Spirit can not be scientific- We're discussing the comparison b/t apples and oranges here. That's why I hate these freakin arguements btw.
When we die, we physically die. But, there are things that we are that leave us that are free, such as our emotions, personalities, attachments through emotions, thoughts, basically who we are, our spirit. It moves on. It never dies. It merely stays with us encased in our physical bodies while we are alive, once we die, our spirit frees itself.
It can't be proven. Nor,  wil it never will be.

AND BTW, im NOT religious at all- just to clarify.
That's your belief, not fact. Science clearly shows that our minds are a result of electrochemical reactions. If something is factual and exists, objectively, it can be proven. To date, the concept of spirit or soul has never been evidenced in any way and many many a men have tried.

"You do not teach the paths of the forest to an old gorilla."


"It's a little like wrestling a gorilla. You don't quit when you're tired - you quit when the gorilla is tired."


RAPTORS! http://www.unexplain...pic=233151&st=0


#34    Radian

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Posted 27 August 2012 - 01:36 AM

View PostImaginarynumber1, on 27 August 2012 - 01:31 AM, said:

That's your belief, not fact. Science clearly shows that our minds are a result of electrochemical reactions. If something is factual and exists, objectively, it can be proven. To date, the concept of spirit or soul has never been evidenced in any way and many many a men have tried.

LOL i NEVER said it was a fact. I'm able to discus my "beliefs" as well as you are.
and again, As I stated in a previous post you can't prove spirit. There is no evidence wih spirit because spirit can't be proven scientifically. & (I assume when you mention "evidence" you mean scientifically proven.)

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#35    Imaginarynumber1

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Posted 27 August 2012 - 01:46 AM

View PostShankpin, on 27 August 2012 - 01:36 AM, said:

LOL i NEVER said it was a fact. I'm able to discus my "beliefs" as well as you are.
and again, As I stated in a previous post you can't prove spirit. There is no evidence wih spirit because spirit can't be proven scientifically. & (I assume when you mention "evidence" you mean scientifically proven.)

I also never said that you said it was fact. I just reaffirmed that it was your opinion. And I will again state that ANYTHING that exists can be ""proven" scientifically, as science is not only the classification of knowledge, but the way in which we purse such knowledge. That's why we know such things as vampires, elves and eskimos don't exist. Because of critical thinking and testable, repeatable hypotheses, not adherence to beliefs that have no grounding in reality.

Edited by Imaginarynumber1, 27 August 2012 - 01:46 AM.

"You do not teach the paths of the forest to an old gorilla."


"It's a little like wrestling a gorilla. You don't quit when you're tired - you quit when the gorilla is tired."


RAPTORS! http://www.unexplain...pic=233151&st=0


#36    Emma_Acid

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Posted 27 August 2012 - 01:54 AM

View PostSheetz, on 26 August 2012 - 10:21 PM, said:

I understand the viewpoints going back and forth, but have yet to see an answer to my question from any of the skeptics or non-believers.  Can you give an example of a type of evidence that would be shown to you that might change your mind

I answered this - and it is not a difficult thing to understand: scientific evidence is what is needed. It really is as simple as that. If you understand the scientific method, then you understand what is needed for something to be established as fact (or as close to fact as it allows).

A blurry photo and people thinking they saw something is not scientific evidence.

View PostSeeker79, on 26 August 2012 - 11:57 PM, said:

I did not say it was the best way to objectify something I said it was the best way to covince somebody of something.

And is therefore useless.

Science isn’t about truth and falsity, it’s about reducing uncertainty ~ Brian Nosek

#37    Radian

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Posted 27 August 2012 - 01:59 AM

View PostImaginarynumber1, on 27 August 2012 - 01:46 AM, said:

I also never said that you said it was fact. I just reaffirmed that it was your opinion. And I will again state that ANYTHING that exists can be ""proven" scientifically, as science is not only the classification of knowledge, but the way in which we purse such knowledge.
Of course, anything that "exists" physically can be proven. Memories, emotions, personality can't be proven because it doesn't "exists" physically. Similar to Psychology, it's not brain surgery it's based soley on personality and disorders that can only be proven by actions/observations of the actions of the person- the person's patterns of thoughts etc,.

View PostImaginarynumber1, on 27 August 2012 - 01:46 AM, said:

That's why we know such things as vampires, elves and eskimos don't exist. Because of critical thinking and testable, repeatable hypotheses, not adherence to beliefs that have no grounding in reality.
I don't necessarily believe in those things, personally. But, I'll tell you "reality" is what we (observe.)

Edited by Shankpin, 27 August 2012 - 02:00 AM.

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#38    Imaginarynumber1

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Posted 27 August 2012 - 02:06 AM

View PostShankpin, on 27 August 2012 - 01:59 AM, said:

Of course, anything that "exists" physically can be proven. Memories, emotions, personality can't be proven because it doesn't "exists" physically. Similar to Psychology, it's not brain surgery it's based soley on personality and disorders that can only be proven by actions/observations of the actions of the person- the person's patterns of thoughts etc,.

I don't necessarily believe in those things, personally. But, I'll tell you "reality" is what we (observe.)

I never said exists physically. I said exists. Memories, emotions and personality are all testable, repeatable and observable. Ghosts, spirit, NIckleback making good music, are not things that exist.

"You do not teach the paths of the forest to an old gorilla."


"It's a little like wrestling a gorilla. You don't quit when you're tired - you quit when the gorilla is tired."


RAPTORS! http://www.unexplain...pic=233151&st=0


#39    Radian

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Posted 27 August 2012 - 02:12 AM

View PostImaginarynumber1, on 27 August 2012 - 02:06 AM, said:

I never said exists physically. I said exists. Memories, emotions and personality are all testable, repeatable and observable. Ghosts, spirit, NIckleback making good music, are not things that exist.

No, not testable, repeatable, but only meets a particular pattern of observation of thought patterns/personality/behaviors that meets criteria to make diagnosis.
lol, you have no arguement I see.
The sound of the music don't exist, and neither do ghost- :}

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#40    Imaginarynumber1

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Posted 27 August 2012 - 02:20 AM

View PostShankpin, on 27 August 2012 - 02:12 AM, said:

No, not testable, repeatable, but only meets a particular pattern of observation of thought patterns/personality/behaviors that meets criteria to make diagnosis.
lol, you have no arguement I see.
The sound of the music don't exist, and neither do ghost- :}

I have a very clear and concise argument, you just choose to ignore it. This is like talking to a brick wall...

"You do not teach the paths of the forest to an old gorilla."


"It's a little like wrestling a gorilla. You don't quit when you're tired - you quit when the gorilla is tired."


RAPTORS! http://www.unexplain...pic=233151&st=0


#41    White Crane Feather

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Posted 27 August 2012 - 02:23 AM

View PostImaginarynumber1, on 27 August 2012 - 12:42 AM, said:



And to believers every shadow is proof.


No. It's not. Personal experiences are subjective evidence. They are unverifiable, usually unrepeatable and boil down to nothing but personal opinion. Objective evidence is verifiable by outside parties, repeatable, testable, etc. Objective evidence is factual, subjective evidence is not.
Looking at objective evidence and accepting it is a personal experience. You cannot escape it.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#42    Radian

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Posted 27 August 2012 - 02:23 AM

View PostImaginarynumber1, on 27 August 2012 - 02:20 AM, said:

I have a very clear and concise argument, you just choose to ignore it. This is like talking to a brick wall...

As I said You have no arguement & I'm bored.

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#43    White Crane Feather

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Posted 27 August 2012 - 02:26 AM

View PostEmma_Acid, on 27 August 2012 - 01:54 AM, said:


And is therefore useless.
Useless :D ??

It's the basis for all knowledge. It's how we learn to interact with the world.... It's how we make observations. It's only useless for the fundamentalist.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#44    Emma_Acid

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Posted 27 August 2012 - 02:27 AM

View PostSeeker79, on 27 August 2012 - 02:23 AM, said:

Looking at objective evidence and accepting it is a personal experience. You cannot escape it.

Wrong way round. You can look at something objective and accept it as a personal experience, but that doesn't mean personal experience is objective evidence.

Science isn’t about truth and falsity, it’s about reducing uncertainty ~ Brian Nosek

#45    Emma_Acid

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Posted 27 August 2012 - 02:29 AM

View PostSeeker79, on 27 August 2012 - 02:26 AM, said:

Useless :D ??

It's the basis for all knowledge. It's how we learn to interact with the world.... It's how we make observations. It's only useless for the fundamentalist.

No it isn't. The way we learn about the world is through an aggregate of empirical discovery. Its the sum of all scientific discovery. What it isnt, is a collection of things people thought they might have seen.

Science isn’t about truth and falsity, it’s about reducing uncertainty ~ Brian Nosek




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