695 replies to this topic

[whitegandalf]

About scarce food sources along the coast during last iceage is true to a degree, but at certain special places around the world there is almost infinity amounts of food easily acessable. Enough to support large stasjonary villages and cities.

Two of these places are New Foundland Island of Canada in the Atlantic and Røst Island off Norway. It is a proven fact that Røst was icefree during whole last iceage. New Foundland i am not sure, probably not.. The food resource at these two locations are the fish cod. A short period each year the cod gather there to reproduce. A substainable fishing of the east cod tribe alone could in theory support 20-30 million people. The west cod tribe about 10 million. The cod could be easily dried (stockfish) without salt and stored for many years (5 to 10) making it also a valuable in trade. Røst is the first place in Europe where people first settled and gave up the nomadic life because of this resource.  95% of iceage or stoneage Røst is now submerged.

There are probably many more hotspots of food along the worlds coastline and islands with different fish species. If a iceage civilisation did exist i think it must have been close to one of these. To bad all these cities, if existed, lies deep underwater today.

Edited by whitegandalf, 09 September 2012 - 11:10 PM.

[Arbitran]

That isn't an entirely impossible notion. It isn't impossible either that in the distant past, some other species was of our level of civilization, and we simply haven't found any trace of it. They are interesting questions, but, given the noted lack of evidence, it is nigh impossible to answer them.

[whitegandalf]

Yes, I think it is quite possible that the Neanderthals discovered some of these protein hotspots before us, after they left Africa. And created the worlds first civilisation. It may explain their big brains.

Also i dont know the percentage of the total land area submerged since iceage,  but i know that 99% of the habitable icefree coastline around the world during last iceage (15.000+ years ago) is submerged today.

Edited by whitegandalf, 09 September 2012 - 11:50 PM.

[emberdawn]

Under water, under ice, maybe underground. If they were advanced they may have figured out it was warmer underground. We just haven't found those caves yet.

[kmt_sesh]

whitegandalf, on 09 September 2012 - 11:15 PM, said:

Yes, I think it is quite possible that the Neanderthals discovered some of these protein hotspots before us, after they left Africa. And created the worlds first civilisation. It may explain their big brains.

Also i dont know the percentage of the total land area submerged since iceage,  but i know that 99% of the habitable icefree coastline around the world during last iceage (15.000+ years ago) is submerged today.

As I recall Neanderthals did not come from Africa. They arose in western Asia and Europe from a previous species (or several species) of Homo which had left Africa.

But a Neanderthal civilization? While there's plentiful evidence for Neanderthals, there's no indication they ever came close to the level of socio-political sophistication required for a civilization to emerge. They were simply hunter-gatherers.

[Hasina]

Arbitran, on 09 September 2012 - 10:35 PM, said:

That isn't an entirely impossible notion. It isn't impossible either that in the distant past, some other species was of our level of civilization, and we simply haven't found any trace of it. They are interesting questions, but, given the noted lack of evidence, it is nigh impossible to answer them.

In a book I read once, Stephen Baxter's Evolution, there's a chapter about a group of Jurrasic period dinosaurs that had attained intelligence, they had a society built around hunting sauropods. They used crude sashes and sharpened sticks. As the continents began to break up and so did the great sauropod herds; along with the killing of the matriarch of the herd, their society was doomed to fail. It was quite an interesting read and very sad if it's happened before in other species but the fact that a species would begin using natural objects as tools that wouldn't be preserved well (especially a carnivore species, why would it want to set up villages if it's prey's always on the move?). An intriguing idea but one that may never be proven.

[whitegandalf]

As I recall Neanderthals did not come from Africa. They arose in western Asia and Europe from a previous species (or several species) of Homo which had left Africa.

You are correct.

But a Neanderthal civilization? While there's plentiful evidence for Neanderthals, there's no indication they ever came close to the level of socio-political sophistication required for a civilization to emerge. They were simply hunter-gatherers.

Anything is possible. Ass underwater archeology is still at its birth and the sea is less explored than the moon who knows what we will find in the future. We have learned considerly since land archeology birth. We simply dont have enough information yet on the most advanced coast neanderthals (as all sites are underwater) from the relevant period.

Edited by whitegandalf, 10 September 2012 - 12:59 AM.

[Hilander]

TheCosmicMind, on 25 August 2012 - 07:15 PM, said:

Is it theoretically possible that an ice age civilization existed that we don't know about (not necessarily "Atlantis" or anything super advanced).  I'm wondering mainly if it's possible that people back then could have created a civilization as advanced as say, Babylon for example, and all traces of it have been lost (again, it doesn't have to have sunk beneath the ocean or anything like that).  Many ancient wonders have been lost to time and no traces of them exist anymore (Colossus of Rhodes, Babylonian gardens, etc.).  So is it possible that ALL TRACES of some civilization have vanished from that long ago?

  Its possible, we are discovering new things all the time.   Even if it was there finding it might be hard because time has a way of getting rid of the evidence.

[Hilander]

Wearer of Hats, on 25 August 2012 - 11:18 PM, said:

Anything is possible (except licking your elbow).
Given all we know about some of the ealier civilisations is what their conquerors tell us it's possible that the conquerors ended up the conquered and a legacy of desctruction ended with them with no trace of who they themselves conquered.

  Your right I tried licking my elbow and you can't.

[Dragonwind]

Not so much ice age civilisation but post ice age it is logical and reasonable to assume many 'complex' coastal societies were lost to ocean levels rising. It is also possible in parts of the middle east, the bottle neck where so many groups passed through and occupied, had some proto civilisations that have been somewhat lost...particularly before the implementation of stone. But most high civilisations sprouted out of agriculture, which was a post ice age phenomenon. Im sure many hunter gatherer socities and clans were fairly sophosticated but it takes much high populations, the subsequent spread of technology and group dynamics to produce ancient Rome or Egypt etc.

[Chaldera]

Wearer of Hats, on 25 August 2012 - 11:18 PM, said:

Anything is possible (except licking your elbow).
Given all we know about some of the ealier civilisations is what their conquerors tell us it's possible that the conquerors ended up the conquered and a legacy of desctruction ended with them with no trace of who they themselves conquered.

I'm sorry to be "that guy", but there are people who can lick their elbow...it was on Brainiac

[Harsh86_Patel]

I would believe that partial evolution of humans and civilisation have to be very gradual and can also suffer devolution during periods of time hence the idea of a ancient civilisation existing in lost periods of time  only seems reasonable as a high civilisation could not have developed in Sumer etc out of nothing and spontaneously the same is the problem with human evolution.Evolutionist nowadays try to explain the origin of man by citing spontaneous evolution (to explain evolution of the human eye and other such complicated organs since there is no proof of intermediate or gradual development)  rather then a gradual one but sadly same cannot be applied to civilisation unless you would like to give credit to external sources for teaching us civilization.Also theory of human evolution if not completely is partially based on assumptions and still championed by majority of mainstream you can read Micheal Cremo's "Forbidden archeology" which gives a good perspective.So if humanity has existed since millions of years for which there are numerous anthropoligcal proofs(anatomically modern human skeletons found in strata millions of years old and later rationalised as modern burials etc since they flew in the face of all mainstream theories) then it can be very plausible that civilization existed at a time which we so conveniently ruled out by mainstream academia.

[Urisk]

What actually is the first evidence of "culture"? Would that be the ancient Summerian tablets from 3,000BC? The Epic of Gilgamesh dates from around this time does it not? Skara Brae in Orkney was built around the same time.

Wearer of Hats, on 25 August 2012 - 11:18 PM, said:

Anything is possible (except licking your elbow).

Afraid that's not entirely accurite. I know a girl who can do that. I think she's double jointed, but the point is I've seen her do it and I'm not sure if it's attractive or slightly disturbing.

Edited by Urisk, 10 September 2012 - 01:25 PM.

[MiskatonicGrad]

Were their no humans living in the tropical regions at this time? your all talking about the harshest enviroment during the last ice age since these people were nomadic wouldn't they just wander south till the ice receded?

and yes it is possible a advanced civiliation existed. allow me to put forth a theory: advanced civiliation builds a nice place to live cities, towns, and such. climate change comes crops start to fail. groups of people from other parts start moving in bringing disease killing of most of the population. the survivors move off with the second group. hundreds of years later a third group shows up finds the cities and remakes it for it's own purpose wiping out all evidence of first group.

I know I bring up alot of what if's. but heck people still believe in that evolution crap.

[Arbitran]

MiskatonicGrad, on 11 September 2012 - 05:58 AM, said:

Were their no humans living in the tropical regions at this time? your all talking about the harshest enviroment during the last ice age since these people were nomadic wouldn't they just wander south till the ice receded?

and yes it is possible a advanced civiliation existed. allow me to put forth a theory: advanced civiliation builds a nice place to live cities, towns, and such. climate change comes crops start to fail. groups of people from other parts start moving in bringing disease killing of most of the population. the survivors move off with the second group. hundreds of years later a third group shows up finds the cities and remakes it for it's own purpose wiping out all evidence of first group.

I know I bring up alot of what if's. but heck people still believe in that evolution crap.

I was with you up until the last few sentences... Then you crossed the line into my field. Bring it on. What's so "crappy" about evolutionary biology? (I'll redirect you to the thread "Evolution... really?" in Spirituality .vs. Skepticism: http://www.unexplain...opic=232905&hl=)

Edited by Arbitran, 11 September 2012 - 06:50 AM.