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The Serer (West Africa) and Ancient Egyptians


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#16    The Puzzler

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 01:56 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 01 September 2012 - 06:09 PM, said:

==


LOL, please don't do  'Van Gorp' on me; this is not about the Oera Linda Book.



And "Jaw" is most certainly NOT pronounced like the English 'jaw', or 'mandible'.


+++

EDIT:

This a better find of yours:

"A snake hiding in a tree has two main symbolic meanings. It can either mean that a person has died and his soul has reincarnated or a person may die."

That would connect the Egyptian Neheb Kaw with the Serer Jaw.

The Egyptian Ka(w) is the human spirit
.
And I wonder what Neheb could mean besides 'unite'. Kmt_sesh, where are you??

Not sure - just ramblng on - but maybe the -h- in Neheb is pronounced like the -ch- in Bach or Loch Ness?

In that case we have the Hebew 'Nachash', or snake. And what does "Negev" mean? You know, the area between Egypt and Israel?


...sigh...


++++++

EDIT2

Wiki:

The origin of the word negev is from the Hebrew root denoting 'dry'. In the Bible the word Negev is also used for the direction 'south'. In Arabic, the Negev is known as al-Naqab.

So we can skip safely skip that one.


I wont play lego linguistics but you shouldn't be so quick to brush it off...

Etymology 2
From Middle English fang, feng (“a catching, capture, seizing”), from Old English fang, feng (“grip, embrace, grasp, grasping, capture, prey, booty, plunder”), from Proto-Germanic *fangan, *fangiz, *fanhiz (“catch, catching, seizure”), from *fanhanan (“to catch, capture”), from Proto-Indo-European *peHg̑- (“to fasten”). Cognate with Scots fang (“that which is taken, capture, catch, prey, booty”), Dutch vang (“a catch”), Low German fangst (“a catch”), German Fang (“a catch, capture, booty”), Swedish fång, fångst, Icelandic fang. Related also to Latin pangere (“to solidify, drive in”), Albanian mpij (“to benumb, stiffen”), Ancient Greek (pḗgnymi, “to stiffen, firm up”), Sanskrit (pāśáyati, “(s)he binds”).

Latin pangere through to Sanskrit HE BINDS - you were wondering about 'unite' weren't you?

Fang is really what a snake is all about, capture, catch, seize, embrace, grasp  - with it's fangs.

People lose interest when it gets too technical, you just got up me for having a linguistics go, then spend a whole post on whether Lamane equates to Lebanon....


Haplogroup L2a1 was found in two specimens from the Southern Levant Pre-Pottery Neolithic B site at Tell Halula, Syria, dating from the period between ca. 9600 and ca. 8000 BP or 7500 - 6000 BCE
http://en.wikipedia....group_L2_(mtDNA)

Edited by The Puzzler, 02 September 2012 - 02:34 AM.

In an mmm bop it's gone...

#17    The Puzzler

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 02:33 AM

The above mention of L2a1 (in Syria c. 9600BP)  is a subgroup of L2. The most common L2 sub group is Haplogroup L2a, both in Africa and the Levant.
L2b is the area of the Serer. L2c is also but somewhat more south.

Haplogroup L2b'c
L2b'c probably evolved c. 62,000 years ago.[1]
Haplogroup L2b

This subclade is predominantly found in West Africa, but it spreads all over Africa.[17]
Haplogroup L2c

L2c is most frequent in Western Africa and may have arisen there.[11] Specially present in Senegal at 39%, Cape Verde 16% and Guinea-Bissau

http://en.wikipedia....group_L2_(mtDNA)

I think cormac might like this paper if he hasnt seen it before, just for interest:
http://class.csueast...NA_AfSlaves.pdf

It might be, that the Serer and Egyptians had the same history prior to settement in the areas they now live and both left the area of the Sahara. The Egyptians do not appear to have come from the Serer people, but they do show genetic similarities.

This is an interesting one: L2a1c1 has a North African origin. It is defined by markers 198, 930, 3308, 8604, 16086. It is observed among Tunisia Sephardic, Ashkenazi, Hebrews, Moroccans, Egyptians, Nubians, and Yemenis.


But I won't drag on with genetics, it frightens people away faster than anything.

In an mmm bop it's gone...

#18    Abramelin

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 06:56 AM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 02 September 2012 - 01:56 AM, said:

I wont play lego linguistics but you shouldn't be so quick to brush it off...

Etymology 2
From Middle English fang, feng (“a catching, capture, seizing”), from Old English fang, feng (“grip, embrace, grasp, grasping, capture, prey, booty, plunder”), from Proto-Germanic *fangan, *fangiz, *fanhiz (“catch, catching, seizure”), from *fanhanan (“to catch, capture”), from Proto-Indo-European *peHg̑- (“to fasten”). Cognate with Scots fang (“that which is taken, capture, catch, prey, booty”), Dutch vang (“a catch”), Low German fangst (“a catch”), German Fang (“a catch, capture, booty”), Swedish fång, fångst, Icelandic fang. Related also to Latin pangere (“to solidify, drive in”), Albanian mpij (“to benumb, stiffen”), Ancient Greek (pḗgnymi, “to stiffen, firm up”), Sanskrit (pāśáyati, “(s)he binds”).

Latin pangere through to Sanskrit HE BINDS - you were wondering about 'unite' weren't you?

Fang is really what a snake is all about, capture, catch, seize, embrace, grasp  - with it's fangs.

People lose interest when it gets too technical, you just got up me for having a linguistics go, then spend a whole post on whether Lamane equates to Lebanon....


Haplogroup L2a1 was found in two specimens from the Southern Levant Pre-Pottery Neolithic B site at Tell Halula, Syria, dating from the period between ca. 9600 and ca. 8000 BP or 7500 - 6000 BCE
http://en.wikipedia....group_L2_(mtDNA)

Yes, I did too, and that's why I hope Kmt_sesh shows up.

I use an actual Egyptian word for Lebanon, "RMNN", which should be read as LMNN, for Lebanon, the homeland of the Phoenicians. LMNN >> LAMANAN?

Then there is a very great possibility the Phoenicians traded gold with these Serer (think Hanno) or mined it themselves after travelling up the Senegal River, exchanged their script as I showed you, maybe some even settled there, and became part of the Serer people as the LamaneS, both as rulers and fishermen. So it may not be true, but it sure looks very possible.

But your FANG is a (North-) European word which indeed would relate to something 'snake'.... but you don't know if the Serer FANG even has anything to do with a snake.

The Serer word is FANG QOOL, Sacred Serpent. FANG could mean SACRED. Then what?

.

Edited by Abramelin, 02 September 2012 - 06:57 AM.


#19    Abramelin

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 08:47 AM

About your post about FANG:

The Egyptian expression/word was "NEHEB-KA(W),  unite/bind the Ka

Can you reshape the Sanskrit pāśáyati, “(s)he binds”) to form neheb-kaw ??

.

Edited by Abramelin, 02 September 2012 - 08:47 AM.


#20    The Puzzler

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 12:08 PM

Yeah, OK, was just having some fun, but who really knows.

Through a variety of odd websites it seems the 'qool' might be an Arabic form of 'tell' as in say - which could be part of the sacred snake because it talks, lol, seriously, you know, like a talking snake, the voice of God, which is what makes him sacred, like the talking serpent in the tree in Eden.
Have a Google, see if you find much for qool, that might mean otherwise.



Nehebkau (Nehebu-Kau, Nehebkhau), 'He Who Unites the Kas', was a benevolent snake god who the Egyptians believed was one of the original primeval gods. He was linked to the sun god, swimming around in the primeval waters before creation, then bound to the sun god when time began. He was a god of protection who protected the pharaoh and all Egyptians, both in life and in the afterlife.

His name comes from the ancient Egyptian word for 'yoke together' or 'unite', nhb Posted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted Image
Edit: add link http://www.thekeep.o...m/nehebkau.html

fang:  pasayati - he binds

If Egyptian nhb equates to the same form as IE fang (bind in sanskrit) then they would most likely share the same name, even if they don't, they could still be the same God. Weird how fang and neheb both mean bind or unite in any case imo.

Edited by The Puzzler, 02 September 2012 - 12:08 PM.

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#21    The Puzzler

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 01:05 PM

Nehebkau did not have a priesthood, but many people invoked him in magical spells to gain his protection and cures against snakebites. He was a snake god of protection, who was called on when the people needed him. He was, they believed, one of the original gods of Egypt, only turned from chaos by the sun god. He was a benevolent god, a god of magic who bound the ka with the physical form, and who judged them in the afterlife. Although he did not have a cult following of his own, he was a god who they invoked in magical spells, both in life and in the land of the dead.

http://www.thekeep.o...m/nehebkau.html

Pangool (in Serer and Cangin) singular : Fangool (var : Pangol and Fangol[2]), are the ancient saints and ancestral spirits of the Serer people of Senegal, the Gambia and Mauritania. The Pangool play a crucial role in Serer religion and history. In a religious sense, they act as interceders between the living world and the supreme being Roog or Koox.[3] In a historical sense, the ancient Serer village and town founders called Lamanes were believed to be accompanied by a group of Pangool as they travelled in search of land to exploit. These Lamanes became guardians of Serer religion and created shrines in honour of the Pangool, thus becoming the custodians of the Pangool cult.[1]
There are several Pangool in Serer religion and each one is associated with a specific attribute, have their own sacred place of worship, means of worship, etc. The symbol of the Pangool is the serpent, represented by two coiled snakes

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pangool

Just on Set, his upright tail, when you look closely, is a forked tail, like 2 serpent heads, or a snake itself. Basques also have a strange 2 (headed) serpent snake:

Posted Image

And the Cadeucus, again, is another spiritual snake rod, that connects Hermes with God.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caduceus
And Asclepius, the healer God with the snake, son of Apollo.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asclepius
Wadjet:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wadjet
Renetutet:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renenutet

Back to 2 snakes...
Posted Image
http://en.wikipedia....i/Snake_Goddess

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorgon
Of the Gorgons I read something, the Serer women, when they got married plaited their hair, (like snakes), if they were caught out being unfaithful, they had to unplait it, causing so much shame and embarrassment, many would commit suicide rather than face the shame - it echoed of the change in hairstyle of Medusa after her dalliance with Poseidon.

Edited by The Puzzler, 02 September 2012 - 01:11 PM.

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#22    Abramelin

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 01:20 PM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 02 September 2012 - 12:08 PM, said:

Yeah, OK, was just having some fun, but who really knows.

Through a variety of odd websites it seems the 'qool' might be an Arabic form of 'tell' as in say - which could be part of the sacred snake because it talks, lol, seriously, you know, like a talking snake, the voice of God, which is what makes him sacred, like the talking serpent in the tree in Eden.
Have a Google, see if you find much for qool, that might mean otherwise.



Nehebkau (Nehebu-Kau, Nehebkhau), 'He Who Unites the Kas', was a benevolent snake god who the Egyptians believed was one of the original primeval gods. He was linked to the sun god, swimming around in the primeval waters before creation, then bound to the sun god when time began. He was a god of protection who protected the pharaoh and all Egyptians, both in life and in the afterlife.

His name comes from the ancient Egyptian word for 'yoke together' or 'unite', nhb Posted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted Image
Edit: add link http://www.thekeep.o...m/nehebkau.html

fang:  pasayati - he binds

If Egyptian nhb equates to the same form as IE fang (bind in sanskrit) then they would most likely share the same name, even if they don't, they could still be the same God. Weird how fang and neheb both mean bind or unite in any case imo.

I think someone just translated the word 'bind' into Sanskrit on that Wiki page. That's not an etymological derivation..


Sanskrit for 'home, house' is pastya

It is used in the etymology for Dutch 'vast' - secure, immobile

We have a verb, "vast maken", which would translate into 'to secure, to immobilize'.... or "to fasten" !!

That seems much more related to your Sanskrit pāśayati.


Or look at this:

http://spokensanskri...=yes&beginning=

ENG: fastening >> SAN: bandha This is a translation, not an etymological derivation.


Makes you think of 'bind,, right?


Even better, look here:

http://spokensanskri...te&direction=AU

SAN: bandhati ENG: bind... Looks more like it !!

SAN: pāśayati ENG: bind  This is a translation, not an etymological derivation.

No, I think that FANG (not the Serer word !!) or VANG has only to do with 'catching' or 'grabbing', but not with 'binding'.

If you want to use Sanskrit, then there are better and much more closely related words


#23    Abramelin

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 01:28 PM

Quote

Just on Set, his upright tail, when you look closely, is a forked tail, like 2 serpent heads, or a snake itself. Basques also have a strange 2 (headed) serpent snake:

??????

I looked closely and I see no 2 (headed) serpent snake in that Basque thing. It looks more like 2 sea cucumbers, lol.

And yes, that feral/domestic dog as Seth's symbol does have a split end of it's tail, but jeesh.

No, sorry, I don't think this is going anywhere.


#24    The Puzzler

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 01:42 PM

Not sure, here's another use of the word...

The etymology of papa is obscure. The word pataka is derived from the root pat, to fall, physically or in the moral sense. Sin is what causes a fall from the religious, moral and spiritual position, the nature of which may vary from tradition to tradition. Violation of, or opposition to, a prescribed religious or moral law causes not only fall but also bondage. Therefore, it is said, that which binds or fetters (pasayati) and causes downfall (patayati) is called papa or sin.
http://www.sikhiwiki.../index.php/Paap

Seems pasa in the word is actually the bondage.

Beas is thought to be a corruption of the older name Vipasa in Sanskrit. The river got this name, Vi-pasa, the one who removed the bondage or pasa in Sanskrit), according to a myth related to sage Vasistha.
http://khushyoga.wor...he-sacred-pool/

--------------------------------------------------

Anyway, I'm very interested in the pyramid concept myself as a connection to ancient Egypt.

Posted Image

What else would the pyramid of Egypt be than the Universe, now that it has been put in front of me, it seems really obvious.

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#25    The Puzzler

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 01:49 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 02 September 2012 - 01:28 PM, said:

??????

I looked closely and I see no 2 (headed) serpent snake in that Basque thing. It looks more like 2 sea cucumbers, lol.

And yes, that feral/domestic dog as Seth's symbol does have a split end of it's tail, but jeesh.

No, sorry, I don't think this is going anywhere.

The staff of Set also has a forked bottom. These are called a Was. His tail probably represents this Was...
The was (wahz) ("power, dominion") sceptre is a symbol that appeared often in relics, art, and hieroglyphics associated with the ancient Egyptian religion. It appears as a a stylized animal head at the top of a long, straight staff with a forked end.
Was sceptres were used as symbols of power or dominion, and were associated with the gods (such as Set or Anubis)[1] as well as with the pharaoh. Was sceptres also represent the Typhonic beast or Set-animal (the mascot of the Egyptian god Set). In later use, it was a symbol of control over the force of chaos that Set represented.
In a funerary context the was sceptre was responsible for the well-being of the deceased, and was thus sometimes included in the tomb equipment or in the decoration of the tomb or coffin. The sceptre is also considered an amulet. The Egyptians perceived the sky as being supported on four pillars, which could have the shape of was sceptres. The was sceptre is also the symbol of the fourth Upper Egyptian nome, the nome of Thebes (called Waset in Egyptian).[2]
Was sceptres were depicted as being carried by gods, pharaohs, and priests. They commonly occur in paintings, drawings, and carvings of gods, and often parallel with emblems such as the ankh and the djed-pillar. Remnants of real was sceptres have been found, constructed of faience or wood, where the head and forked tail of the Set-animal are visible, with the earliest examples dating back to the times of the first dynasty.
The was (wPosted Images) is also the Egyptian hieroglyphic character that stands for a word meaning power.

Posted Image


No, I hope the idea of the pyramid might liven things up, but I wont hold my breath....

In an mmm bop it's gone...

#26    Abramelin

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 01:56 PM

Yes, that drawing (double pyramid) is the thing to focus on because with wordfk we will come nowhere.

But i am wondering who made that drawing. Was it one of the Serer priests, or was it that French priest I have quoted from a couple of times? It could be nothing but his interpretation of the Serer Cosmology.

I meant Henry Gravrand.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 02 September 2012 - 01:59 PM.


#27    Abramelin

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 02:02 PM

Today I found an online book that explains a lot about linguistical relationships and migrations in (ancient) Africa.

Many African subsaharan and West African peoples claim, and some with good reason, to be descnedants of the ancient Egyptians:

General History of Africa: Methodology and African prehistory - Unesco. International Scientific Committee for the Drafting of a General History of Africa

http://books.google....bulary"&f=false


And then enter "Serer" in the search tool (down-left of the online book).


#28    Abramelin

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 02:12 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 02 September 2012 - 01:56 PM, said:

Yes, that drawing (double pyramid) is the thing to focus on because with wordfk we will come nowhere.

But i am wondering who made that drawing. Was it one of the Serer priests, or was it that French priest I have quoted from a couple of times? It could be nothing but his interpretation of the Serer Cosmology.

I meant Henry Gravrand.

.


Father Henry Gravrand (France, 1921 - Abbey of Latrun, Palestine, 11 July 2003[1]) was a French Catholic missionary to Africa and an anthropologist specializing in Serer culture and Serer religion. He was one of the leading pioneers of interfaith dialog.[1] However, despite the richness of his coverage of Serer culture, his approach lacked scientific rigor and included fundamental linguistic and historical errors.

http://en.wikipedia..../Henry_Gravrand


A LA DECOUVERTE DE LA CIVILISATION SEREER AVEC LE R.P. HENRY GRAVRAND

http://ethiopiques.r...php?article1341


#29    Abramelin

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 02:29 PM

LA CIVILISATION SEREER : PANGOOL DE HENRI GRAVRAND, DAKAR, NEAS, 1990

http://ethiopiques.r....php?article222

And those 2 articles by Gravrand, the online book of my former post, and the Wiki pages is all there is to find about the Serer.

The French or the  Senegalese are not very eager to put much online.

But I am quite sure the double pyramid thing is by his hand.

+++++++

EDIT:

LOL, I think we will actually have to go to a library to find out more !!

.

Edited by Abramelin, 02 September 2012 - 02:39 PM.


#30    Abramelin

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 05:28 PM

Or visit YouTube:

pulaar - africa fulani peul kemet oral history pt 1



A comment by the uploader (edited):

Yes, the great sage Amadou Hampate Ba does make reference to the Fulani originating near the Nile river on video part 3.

This idea has been developed by the great Senegal scholar Cheick Anta Diop, in Unesco's history of Africa vol 2, at the Cairo Symposium on the people of ancient Egypt, and in many other books too.


Peace to all.

1LoveHabesha


For the other parts of this documentary, visit 1LoveHabesha's profile on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/user/1LoveHabesha?feature=watch

...and click "Load ten more videos"

And the Fulani /Pulaar/ Peul are very closely related to the Serer.

Same language, same culture, same religion.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 02 September 2012 - 05:32 PM.





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