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Not just Jesus - other virgin births


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#16    monk 56

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Posted 15 September 2012 - 09:22 AM

Hi Bling and Setton,

There is some inaccuracy in the above, not all deities were associated with 25th December and in the myths of Horus his birth wasn't on 21st December, he was born during the Epagomental days of the Egyptian Calendar, this was five days added to the 12th month, this sounds good until you realize that the 12th month and year start was in the Summer, link below:-

http://www.ancienteg....co.uk/nut.html

It was Emperor Aurelian who ruled between 270-275 hoping to unite all different religions that were in the Roman Empire that made 25th December a standard day to worship different gods, that inaccurate links needs to value, please scroll down link below to religious reform:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aurelian

Which is a confusing point, why is Sol Invictus on 25th December and not on 21st December being the Winter Solstice??

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Sol_Invictus

Originally when the Julian Calendar was made on 1st January 0045BC, the Winter Solstice was aligned to 25th December, and when the church got together at the First Council of Nicaea in Iznik, Turkey they found that it had slipped to 21st December, obviously the Vernal Equinox had slipped as well, roughly the Julian Calender gains 3 days in every 400 years, and this made it difficult to calcalate Easter.

http://en.wikipedia....uncil_of_Nicaea

Rather than correct the error, which wasn't that difficult, which was leaving out 3 leap days every 400 years, like King Canute they just stopped the date to 21st March, (which applied to the Winter Solstice in December as well,) and as you know Easter uses the first full Moon after the Vernal Equinox to calcalate Easter.

By 1582 the real Vernal Equinox was falling on 11th March, so ten days were taken out, but not for the full length of the Julian Calendar, the adjustment was only made up to 325AD and the First Council of Nicaea.

http://en.wikipedia....gorian_Calendar

I know this is a small point but is why Sol Invictus doesn't correspond to the Winter Solstice.

Edited by monk 56, 15 September 2012 - 09:24 AM.


#17    monk 56

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Posted 15 September 2012 - 10:11 AM

In the 380's a Christian woman named Egeria made a pilgrimage to Jesusalem and kept a journal, where she noted that Christmas was celebrated on 6th January, Epiphany.

http://www.aquinasan...ass/article/119

I doubt that we will ever know the birthday of Christ, as i find even 6th January dubious and open to manipulation by hermetic philosophers, with Sirius alignments.   The Jews use previous sunset as start of the day, so this is 5th January at sunset, if i had been one of The Magi i could follow Sirius from Persia with the method of the Sun setting as Sirius rises, to Bethlehem, however i would have to know date of birth before i set out on my journey.

The factor that we don't know year of birth isn't applicable, Sirius rises as Sun sets for many years on 5th January during this era in Bethlehem, only becoming out of synch by precession much later, so on link below showing astronomy graph, don't read any thing in the year chosen, it happened every year!

http://2012forum.com...=4079&mode=view

Don't read too much in this as 6th January could have been a date chosen early on because of the Sirius alignment.

Edited by monk 56, 15 September 2012 - 10:15 AM.


#18    TrueBeliever

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Posted 15 September 2012 - 10:22 AM

View PostNinhursag, on 11 September 2012 - 05:40 PM, said:

It Should Be Obvious By Now That Various Religions Copied One Another ..

belief obscures many obvious things..............


#19    Arbitran

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Posted 15 September 2012 - 10:30 AM

Another excellent topic Bling. Very well noted. I've always been fascinated by these stories. It does make one wonder... whic one came first? We may never know, but it's interesting to ponder. In any case, it's clear that Jesus wasn't the first... I'd personally put my money on Osiris out of the ones you mentioned, but then, the dates suggest that rather strongly I'd say.

Try to realize it's all within yourself / No-one else can make you change / And to see you're really only very small / And life flows on within you and without you. / We were talking about the love that's gone so cold and the people / Who gain the world and lose their soul / They don't know they can't see are you one of them? / When you've seen beyond yourself then you may find peace of mind / Is waiting there / And the time will come / when you see we're all one and life flows on within you and without you. ~ George Harrison

#20    churchanddestroy

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Posted 15 September 2012 - 06:06 PM

View PostBling, on 09 September 2012 - 05:07 PM, said:

Here's the historical facts:

I'm not a Christian, but the dissemination of overly exaggerated claims of similarities between the Christian Myth and Paganism has prompted me to contribute.

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Both Horus and Jesus were the "only begotten son" of a god (either Osiris or Yahweh)

Kinda sorta true, except that "only begotten son" is very clearly Christian language, and there is nothing outside of this list to suggest that the Egyptians used the same phrase.

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Horus's mother was Meri, Jesus's mother was Mary

Horus's mother was Isis. I have never seen anything to suggest that Isis was also known as "Meri", so I'm going to go ahead and say that fun fact is false.

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Horus's foster father was called Jo-Seph, and Jesus's foster father was Joseph

There is no scholarly reference to a 'Jo-Seph' as Horus's foster father, and the only reference to foster father attributes that role to Seb, also known as Geb, the God of the Earth and consort to Nut, the God of the Sky. Another fallacy.

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Both foster fathers were of royal descent.

... Maybe? I can't find a reference to Geb as royalty. And there is no ancient reference to a 'Jo-Seph', so no points to the originator of the list.

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Both were born in a cave.

Jesus Christ was said to have been born in a stable, laid in a manger. Horus, on the other hand, was born in the marshlands of the Nile Delta, in a place called Chemmet near Buto. Another fallacy.

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Both had their coming announced to their mother by an angel.

I cannot find any reference to Horus's birth being announced by an angel. Also, angels weren't part of the Egyptian mythos, so yet again another fallacy.

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Horus; birth was heralded by the star Sirius (the morning star). Jesus had his birth heralded by a star in the East (the sun rises in the East).

I think this list was ripped directly from Zeitgeist, which basically made up a bunch of stuff. I can't find any scholarly references to Horus being heralded by any star whatsoever. Another fallacy.

Quote

Ancient Egyptians celebrated the birth of Horus on December 21 (the Winter Solstice). Modern Christians celebrate the birth of Jesus on December 25.

There is no reference to Horus's date of birth being Dec. 21. This list is literally pulled out of thin air.

http://conspiracies....cles/zeitgeist/

Here is a link that contends that Zeitgeist, the basis for all of these claims, is entirely, without question, 100% made up. Believe whatever you want, but I'd like to make this point:

This entire list is lies - and worse still, this entire list is the exact same crime irreligious people accuse religious people of committing: Believing in something fallacious simply because it validates a view point. There is no connection of the sort that this list claims between Jesus Christ and any other God of antiquity. There is a relationship between the Judeo-Christian mythology and various myths in antiquity - example: The old Mesopotamian creation story involves humans in a garden of the gods, a serpent, and fruit. The ancient Jews were also exiled to Mesopotamia at one point, and there is at least some reason to believe that they may have borrowed the ideas of another culture. BUT, the difference there-in is that you can actually read the old Mesopotamian myths actually draw a connection, whereas with this list, there is nothing but nonsense and assertions fabricated by sorry individuals who are only looking to validate what they believe by whatever means necessary, rather than being intellectually honest and formulating a view around actual evidence grounded in solid facts. Mon dieu, I can hardly believe that a day came where I would be defending Christianity while at the same time chastising the secular community for believing whatever is convenient to their preconceived notions.

When men yield up the privilege of thinking, the last shadow of liberty quits the horizon.

#21    Blueogre2

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Posted 15 September 2012 - 10:01 PM

There are some things Christianity has in common with other religions but thats to be expected from it's long history. As Christianity grew it incorporated many elements of other religions in order to make itself more acceptable to new converts who were unwilling to let go of their pagan traditions. Thats one of the reasons why there are so many saints in the Catholic Church, many of them are based upon older deities that people refused to let go of. Another more spiritual reason is the Devil, the enemy of the church, has constantly set out to create counterfit versions of many of God's wonders in order to confuse people and lead them away from God.


#22    Arbitran

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Posted 15 September 2012 - 10:08 PM

View PostBlueogre2, on 15 September 2012 - 10:01 PM, said:

There are some things Christianity has in common with other religions but thats to be expected from it's long history. As Christianity grew it incorporated many elements of other religions in order to make itself more acceptable to new converts who were unwilling to let go of their pagan traditions. Thats one of the reasons why there are so many saints in the Catholic Church, many of them are based upon older deities that people refused to let go of. Another more spiritual reason is the Devil, the enemy of the church, has constantly set out to create counterfit versions of many of God's wonders in order to confuse people and lead them away from God.

We all know about Christianity picking up traditions and characters from other religions; but I take it you have no evidence of the Devil bit you mentioned? I mean, not even the Bible talks about what you just said. Where does it come from, I wonder?

Try to realize it's all within yourself / No-one else can make you change / And to see you're really only very small / And life flows on within you and without you. / We were talking about the love that's gone so cold and the people / Who gain the world and lose their soul / They don't know they can't see are you one of them? / When you've seen beyond yourself then you may find peace of mind / Is waiting there / And the time will come / when you see we're all one and life flows on within you and without you. ~ George Harrison

#23    Jinxdom

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 03:36 AM

I can see where the devil bit would of came from but it doesn't include the devil himself it shows other things like kings horns and the beast changing of dates and times. (sorta like the whole jesus born in winter when it was spring deal if he was even real in the first place)

It's something like Daniel chapter 7. You read though it has all kinds of stuff according to it that would go along those lines.

It's a stretch a very very long stretch but it's there.


#24    monk 56

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 12:47 PM

Hi CHURCHAND DESTROY,

Yes Zeitgeist doesn't work with a number of factors, but even governments can believe a lot of things, thus why i would want complete separation of belief and state, Zeitgeist isn't original, indeed most of this can be found in the books of Edward Carpenter who strangely was involved with many esoteric secret societies and was one of the original people that started the U.K. Labour Party.

http://en.wikipedia....dward_Carpenter

His book was called "Pagan and Christian Creeds, links below:-

http://www.edwardcar....net/ecpcc3.htm

http://www.edwardcar...net//ecpcc2.htm

To fully understand who Edward Carpenter was involved with, i have left an old thread of mine on link, however as it is now old, not all the links that i make on thread now work, there are three pages, change at bottom:-

http://www.mauricefe...&t=1940&start=0


#25    monk 56

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 01:09 PM

Edward Carpenter was involved in the establishment of the U.K. Labour Party and involved with members of the Fabian Society, Golden Dawn and many others, his associates included Annie Besant, mentioned on link below:-

http://comasonic.net/

I'm not knocking but explaining, however i'm not keen on group below being associated with the politics of Westminster!

http://en.wikipedia....w_Welcome_Lodge

Edited by monk 56, 16 September 2012 - 01:10 PM.





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