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Great Pyramid not built by Khufu?


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#1    The Puzzler

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 07:49 AM

Does anyone know much about this Inventory Stele?

Actually, we have the testament of Pharaoh Khufu himself that he only did repair work on the Great Pyramid. The Inventory Stele, found in 1857 by Auguste Mariette just to the east of the Pyramid, dates to about 1500 B.C., but according to Maspero and other experts, shows evidence of having been copied from a far older stele contemporaneous with the Fourth Dynasty. In the Stele, Khufu himself tells of his discoveries made while clearing away the sands from the Pyramid and Sphinx. He dedicated the account to Isis, who he called the "Mistress of the Western Mountain," "Mistress of the Pyramid," and identified the Pyramid itself as the "House of Isis."

The Stele describes how Pharaoh Khufu, "gave to her (Isis) an offering anew, and he built again (to restore, renovate, reconstruct) her temple of stone." From there, the Pharaoh inspected the Sphinx, according to the text, and related the story of how in his time both the monument and a nearby sycamore tree had been struck by lightning. The bolt had knocked off part of the headdress of the Sphinx, which Khufu carefully restored. Egyptologist Selim Hassan, who dug out the Sphinx from the surrounding sands in the 1930's, observed there is indeed evidence that portions of the Sphinx were damaged by lightning, and the mark of ancient repairs is very apparent. Also, he noted, sycamore trees once grew to the south of the monument, which had been dated to a great age.

The Stele then ends with the story of how Khufu built small pyramids for himself and his daughters, wife and family, next to the Great Pyramid.

http://www.world-mys...com/mpl_2_4.htm

In addition, it should be noted that the Inventory Stele (26th dynasty) informs us that Khufu repaired the headdress of the Sphinx after it had been damaged by lightning. If this is true (and there is no particular reason to doubt it), this would negate the theory that Khufu’s son Khafre built the Sphinx, and it would throw up serious questions about the orthodox dating of the rest of the Giza site. Moreover, the Inventory Stele fails to make any claim that Khufu built the Sphinx or the Great Pyramid, and these surprising omissions offer considerable support to my adoption hypothesis.
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#2    Arbitran

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 07:54 AM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 10 September 2012 - 07:49 AM, said:

Does anyone know much about this Inventory Stele?

Actually, we have the testament of Pharaoh Khufu himself that he only did repair work on the Great Pyramid. The Inventory Stele, found in 1857 by Auguste Mariette just to the east of the Pyramid, dates to about 1500 B.C., but according to Maspero and other experts, shows evidence of having been copied from a far older stele contemporaneous with the Fourth Dynasty. In the Stele, Khufu himself tells of his discoveries made while clearing away the sands from the Pyramid and Sphinx. He dedicated the account to Isis, who he called the "Mistress of the Western Mountain," "Mistress of the Pyramid," and identified the Pyramid itself as the "House of Isis."

The Stele describes how Pharaoh Khufu, "gave to her (Isis) an offering anew, and he built again (to restore, renovate, reconstruct) her temple of stone." From there, the Pharaoh inspected the Sphinx, according to the text, and related the story of how in his time both the monument and a nearby sycamore tree had been struck by lightning. The bolt had knocked off part of the headdress of the Sphinx, which Khufu carefully restored. Egyptologist Selim Hassan, who dug out the Sphinx from the surrounding sands in the 1930's, observed there is indeed evidence that portions of the Sphinx were damaged by lightning, and the mark of ancient repairs is very apparent. Also, he noted, sycamore trees once grew to the south of the monument, which had been dated to a great age.

The Stele then ends with the story of how Khufu built small pyramids for himself and his daughters, wife and family, next to the Great Pyramid.

http://www.world-mys...com/mpl_2_4.htm

In addition, it should be noted that the Inventory Stele (26th dynasty) informs us that Khufu repaired the headdress of the Sphinx after it had been damaged by lightning. If this is true (and there is no particular reason to doubt it), this would negate the theory that Khufu’s son Khafre built the Sphinx, and it would throw up serious questions about the orthodox dating of the rest of the Giza site. Moreover, the Inventory Stele fails to make any claim that Khufu built the Sphinx or the Great Pyramid, and these surprising omissions offer considerable support to my adoption hypothesis.
http://www.eridu.co....egypt/giza.html

I have long said that the Inventory Stele presents a serious challenge to the current Egyptological hypotheses. I of course can't say whether or not it's true, but given it's essentially the only textual evidence we have, period, with pertinence to the construction of the Great Pyramid, I'm inclined to give it audience.

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#3    blackdogsun

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 09:25 AM

here's a thread started by kmt on the inventory stela
http://www.unexplain...pic=169892&st=0


#4    Harsh86_Patel

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 01:05 PM

Great pyramid was not built by the AE or khufu and is a way older structure by the looks of it.Obvious proofs pointing towards it the lack of heiroglyphs in it and the staggering difference between it and all the other pyramids built by other pharoans that followed.I had once suggested that Khufu probably intruded and put his cartouche if Vyse didn't do it himself and probably repaired the pyramid on atleast two other blogs regarding this topic hence the mortar between the blocks radiocarbondates from around Khufu's time.There is not much objective proof that Khufu built the pyramids but still it is treated as accepted fact beyond any questioning.


#5    The Puzzler

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 01:11 PM

View Postblackdogsun, on 10 September 2012 - 09:25 AM, said:

here's a thread started by kmt on the inventory stela
http://www.unexplain...pic=169892&st=0
Thanks, I should have done a search I guess.  I wonder why this wouldn't be so...

The Inventory Stele, found in 1857 by Auguste Mariette just to the east of the Pyramid, dates to about 1500 B.C., but according to Maspero and other experts, shows evidence of having been copied from a far older stele contemporaneous with the Fourth Dynasty.

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#6    Harte

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 05:50 PM

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 10 September 2012 - 01:05 PM, said:

Great pyramid was not built by the AE or khufu and is a way older structure by the looks of it.Obvious proofs pointing towards it the lack of heiroglyphs in it and the staggering difference between it and all the other pyramids built by other pharoans that followed.I had once suggested that Khufu probably intruded and put his cartouche if Vyse didn't do it himself and probably repaired the pyramid on atleast two other blogs regarding this topic hence the mortar between the blocks radiocarbondates from around Khufu's time.There is not much objective proof that Khufu built the pyramids but still it is treated as accepted fact beyond any questioning.

Okay.

Then please explain the Egyptian glyphs that were spotted by the robotic probe sent into the "air shafts" that come out of the Queen's Chamber.

Did Khufu hire a midget?  Did you know these shafts are only about 8 by 81/2 ]inches?

It's obvious to any thinking person that all the Egyptian pyramids were constructed by (ahem) the Egyptians.

Any other thought on the subject is either the folly of pure ignorance or brain maxturbation.

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#7    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 07:41 PM

View PostHarte, on 10 September 2012 - 05:50 PM, said:

Did Khufu hire a midget?  

There were midgets/dwarfs in Egypt. :rolleyes:

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#8    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 07:42 PM

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Left one.

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#9    zoser

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 08:23 PM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 10 September 2012 - 07:49 AM, said:

Does anyone know much about this Inventory Stele?

Actually, we have the testament of Pharaoh Khufu himself that he only did repair work on the Great Pyramid. The Inventory Stele, found in 1857 by Auguste Mariette just to the east of the Pyramid, dates to about 1500 B.C., but according to Maspero and other experts, shows evidence of having been copied from a far older stele contemporaneous with the Fourth Dynasty. In the Stele, Khufu himself tells of his discoveries made while clearing away the sands from the Pyramid and Sphinx. He dedicated the account to Isis, who he called the "Mistress of the Western Mountain," "Mistress of the Pyramid," and identified the Pyramid itself as the "House of Isis."

The Stele describes how Pharaoh Khufu, "gave to her (Isis) an offering anew, and he built again (to restore, renovate, reconstruct) her temple of stone." From there, the Pharaoh inspected the Sphinx, according to the text, and related the story of how in his time both the monument and a nearby sycamore tree had been struck by lightning. The bolt had knocked off part of the headdress of the Sphinx, which Khufu carefully restored. Egyptologist Selim Hassan, who dug out the Sphinx from the surrounding sands in the 1930's, observed there is indeed evidence that portions of the Sphinx were damaged by lightning, and the mark of ancient repairs is very apparent. Also, he noted, sycamore trees once grew to the south of the monument, which had been dated to a great age.

The Stele then ends with the story of how Khufu built small pyramids for himself and his daughters, wife and family, next to the Great Pyramid.

http://www.world-mys...com/mpl_2_4.htm

In addition, it should be noted that the Inventory Stele (26th dynasty) informs us that Khufu repaired the headdress of the Sphinx after it had been damaged by lightning. If this is true (and there is no particular reason to doubt it), this would negate the theory that Khufu’s son Khafre built the Sphinx, and it would throw up serious questions about the orthodox dating of the rest of the Giza site. Moreover, the Inventory Stele fails to make any claim that Khufu built the Sphinx or the Great Pyramid, and these surprising omissions offer considerable support to my adoption hypothesis.
http://www.eridu.co....egypt/giza.html

This is what I have always believed.  Also the video I posted here a couple of days ago proposes a similar argument.  That the GP was repaired around the time of Khufu.  In writings that I have which date back to the 1970's it states that Imhotep carried out repairs directed by King Zoser.

Edited by zoser, 10 September 2012 - 08:24 PM.

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#10    zoser

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 08:26 PM

View Postthe L, on 10 September 2012 - 07:41 PM, said:

There were midgets/dwarfs in Egypt. :rolleyes:

This is true, and according to my sources also giants.  It is from this time (circa 7000BC) that we inherited a false set genetics but that's another story.

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#11    Banksy Boy

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 08:59 PM

View PostHarte, on 10 September 2012 - 05:50 PM, said:

Okay.

Then please explain the Egyptian glyphs that were spotted by the robotic probe sent into the "air shafts" that come out of the Queen's Chamber.


Do you know what those glyphs say and are there any others that are the same they can be compared to, that prove they're Egyptian ?


#12    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 10:28 PM

View Postzoser, on 10 September 2012 - 08:26 PM, said:

This is true, and according to my sources also giants.  It is from this time (circa 7000BC) that we inherited a false set genetics but that's another story.

Can you developed that?

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#13    kmt_sesh

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 02:32 AM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 10 September 2012 - 01:11 PM, said:

Thanks, I should have done a search I guess.  I wonder why this wouldn't be so...

The Inventory Stele, found in 1857 by Auguste Mariette just to the east of the Pyramid, dates to about 1500 B.C., but according to Maspero and other experts, shows evidence of having been copied from a far older stele contemporaneous with the Fourth Dynasty.

I must admit I myself am not very good at the search function, which is why I try not to chide others for failing to do so. That was one of a series of short-lived discussions I launched to refute some of the stunningly poor information the zany Zecharia Sitchin presented in his book The Stairway to Heaven. It was fun stuff to write.

The Inventory Stela is the darling of numerous fringe authors and quite a few posters of the same bent who've graced our halls at UM (and by this I am not including you, Puzzler). Actually dating it to 1500 BCE is many centuries off, as there is consensus in the Egyptological and wider academic community that it dates to the Saite Period (beginning 664 BCE), otherwise known as Dynasty 26. It was a brief resurgence of political autonomy for the Egyptians in the Late Period—after the Egyptians tossed off the yoke of Assyria and just before the Persians came along and mucked up everything for them. Giza had been more or less abandoned and neglected for a long time, and in the rebirth of their nationalistic zeal, the Egyptians showered it with attention and veneration.

Here is one of the most modern translations of the Inventory Stela (Christiane Zivie-Coche 2002: 85-87):


Live the Horus Medjed, the King of Upper and Lower Egypt, Cheops,
given life. He found the house of Isis, Mistress of the Pyramids, next to
the house of Haurun, northwest of the house of Osiris, Lord of Rasetau.
He (re)built the pyramid of the king's daughter Henutsen beside this
temple. He made an inventory, carved on a stela, for his mother Isis, the
mother of the god, Hathor, Mistress of the Sky. He restored for her the
divine offerings and (re)built her temple in stone, that which he found
in ruins being renewed, and the gods in their place.

The temenos of Haurun-Harmakhis is south of the temple domain of
Isis, Mistress of the Pyramids, and north of Osiris, Lord of Rasetau. The
writings of the temple of Harmakhis were brought to make the inventory
(bis) of this diving being (?) of the great [. . .] his effigy, its casing
entirely covered with designs [. . .] he made [. . .] which is in gilded stone
of seven cubits [. . .] in the temenos of Harmakhis, in conformity with this
model that is carved [. . .]. He set up an offering table for the vases [. . .].
May he endure. May he live forever and ever, his face turned toward the
east.

So when one reads proper translations of this small monument, it's not really referring to the Great Pyramid at all. It's referring to one of the small queens' pyramids along the east side of the Great Pyramid. The Inventory Stela is mostly about the temple to Isis that had been erected next to this little pyramid, including a list of offerings supplied to the temple. That this temple existed is not in question: it is archaeologically attested. However, it did not exist in Khufu's time. It cannot be dated to any earlier than the Third Intermediate Period (beginning 1064 BCE). That period itself was centuries before Dynasty 26, so the temple to Isis must have seemed very old even by the Saite Period. However, it certainly was not erected in Khufu's time. In fact, when the Isis temple was built next to the little queen's pyramid in the Third Intermediate Period, part a large private mastaba to the immediate east had to be dismantled to accommodate the temple structure. Obviously the mastaba, which dates to Dynasty 4, precedes the Isis temple in chronology.

There isn't really anything about the Inventory Stela that would confirm it as an historical document, as we might understand the term. It was a monument of veneration, both to a very ancient king and to a very important goddess. Close examination of the stela reveals all sorts of historical anachronisms, not the least of which are several deities who cannot even be attested in Dynasty 4 (e.g., Osiris, Isis, Horemakhet [Harmakhis], Haurun). It was common for people who commissioned important monuments (kings included) to hint that they came from ancient records they had found, but that was only to lend importance and legitimacy to the monument. It doesn't mean historical veracity is evident.


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#14    kmt_sesh

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 02:43 AM

View Postthe L, on 10 September 2012 - 07:42 PM, said:

Posted Image

Left one.

Come now, L, Bes was a god so you can't count him. (Don't tell him I said that.) But dwarves were indeed part of the ancient population, which should surprise no one, and they often reached high stations in the society. One of my favorite examples was a wealthy man named Seneb, who probably lived in Dynasty 5 (late Old Kingdom) and left this charming statue group of him and his family:

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Giants, on the other hand, are not attested. There is no real evidence for them in the archaeological record. Cleverly concocted, Photoshopped photos on the internet do not count, of course. In fact, in an age when the average man grew to be around 5'2", the tallest ancient Egyptian of whom I'm aware is an unidentified New Kingdom fellow designated as Unknown Man E. He was around 5'9" in life—the size of an average Western man today.

View PostBanksy Boy, on 10 September 2012 - 08:59 PM, said:

Do you know what those glyphs say and are there any others that are the same they can be compared to, that prove they're Egyptian ?

No one is certain what the glyphs are, although a convincing theory has been presented that they represent numbers. This would make sense. They had to have been engineering marks of some kind, and supposing that they might have been numerical markings is very reasonable. The point is, however, that they had to have been put there by some individual while the Great Pyramid was being constructed. That much cannot be argued.

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#15    kmt_sesh

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 02:49 AM

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 10 September 2012 - 01:05 PM, said:

Great pyramid was not built by the AE or khufu and is a way older structure by the looks of it.Obvious proofs pointing towards it the lack of heiroglyphs in it and the staggering difference between it and all the other pyramids built by other pharoans that followed.I had once suggested that Khufu probably intruded and put his cartouche if Vyse didn't do it himself and probably repaired the pyramid on atleast two other blogs regarding this topic hence the mortar between the blocks radiocarbondates from around Khufu's time.There is not much objective proof that Khufu built the pyramids but still it is treated as accepted fact beyond any questioning.

The mortar extracted for the carbon dating consisted of 40 different samples taken from all over the Great Pyramid. It's beyond reality to suggest that every one of these samples is inconsistent with the age of the pyramid, especially considering that the areas from which nearly all of the samples were taken had been concealed for thousands of years by casing stones that the early Muslims stripped off. And the mean average for these mortar samples has confirmed that the Great Pyramid could not have been built much more than a century before the conventional date of 2500 BCE.

I don't know about all of those pyramids built after Khufu's. What about Khafre's? It's practically the same size. What about the three erected by Sneferu, even before the Great Pyramid? What about Djoser's pyramid, more than a century before Khufu's?

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