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Great Pyramid not built by Khufu?


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#271    kmt_sesh

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 02:42 AM

View PostAtentutankh-pasheri, on 14 October 2012 - 02:09 PM, said:

Having searched, I find no mention of Queen Hetephere's pyramid in this thread, though it is in others. The question here, is as her tomb was undisturbed, presumably, between initial sealing and modern opening, and well preseved wooden artifacts were discovered, then has carbon dating been done on any of these objects? My thinking is that it will at least give a reasonable date of construction her pyramid, which surely will be within the same range as GP. Further, what, if any, carbon dating has been done on objects that, by normal reasoning, predate GP. Would this not give a bracket within which building of GP will fall, not very precise of course, but should at least preclude the wilder speculations of it's age. Seems more acurate than trying to age the stones themselves.

The stones of the Great Pyramid have not been subjected to dating methods, as I understand it. Chemical analyses have been conducted, but that's something different. Trying to date the stones is more geological than archaeological, anyway. That's why extensive carbon dating has been conducted on forty-some mortar samples from the Great Pyramid. Being organic in nature, mortar is an archaeologist's friend and is well suited to carbon dating. And the C14 dating that was conducted on the Great Pyramid confirms that the monument dates to the relative date which has always been assigned to it, although it's possible the pyramid is a century or so older than originally thought.

Hetepheres' tomb is not a pyramid but a shaft tomb designated G7000x. It was a concealed burial accidentally discovered by a photographer setting up his tripod east of the Great Pyramid, in February 1925. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but earlier in this thread there was a lot of attention paid to the small queen's pyramid on the east side of the Great Pyramid which is mentioned in the Inventory Stela—the stela mentions the pyramid was made for a royal daughter named Henutsen, so are you thinking of this, maybe? The stela dates to many centuries after the time of Khufu and there isn't even evidence that a royal lady named Henutsen existed in Khufu's court, but that's another debate.

It was in Hetepheres' shaft tomb G7000x where the wonderful furniture was found, so you're right about that. To my knowledge, however, none of it has been subjected to carbon dating. There's no real cause to do so. That the furniture and other burial equipment belonged to Queen Hetepheres is beyond question. Moreover, Hetepheres' furniture represents not only one of the largest deposits of ancient Egyptian furniture ever found, but by far one of the oldest. Even with the tiny samples required for modern C14 dating, it wouldn't be worth it to damage her furniture.

Your question about tests performed on monuments predating the Great Pyramid is an excellent one. That sort of bracketing was indeed considered. In the C14 analyses conducted on the Great Pyramid in 1984 and 1995, many other monuments of the Old Kingdom and Middle Kingdom were analyzed. This includes several Saqqara tombs dating all the way back to Dynasty 1 (Early Dynastic Period). The calibrated dates for Tomb 3357, for example, average around 2900 BCE (Bonani et al 2001: 1312). The conventional relative dates for Dynasty 1 are around 3050-2813 BCE, so in this case the carbon dating seems to be dead on. Several Dynasty 3 monuments were tested, as were several from early Dynasty 4, so the overall testing was well bracketed.

As I like to point out to the alien crowd and Atlantis fans (et al), modern science has corroborated historical research. :tu:

The report for the carbon dating can be downloaded as a PDF from this link.

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#272    questionmark

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 01:51 PM

View Postkmt_sesh, on 17 October 2012 - 02:42 AM, said:

The stones of the Great Pyramid have not been subjected to dating methods, as I understand it.

Even if you dated the stones you would hardly get the construction date of the pyramid as the stone is much older.

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#273    kmt_sesh

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 02:15 AM

View PostAtentutankh-pasheri, on 14 October 2012 - 02:09 PM, said:

Having searched, I find no mention of Queen Hetephere's pyramid in this thread, though it is in others. The question here, is as her tomb was undisturbed, presumably, between initial sealing and modern opening, and well preseved wooden artifacts were discovered, then has carbon dating been done on any of these objects? My thinking is that it will at least give a reasonable date of construction her pyramid, which surely will be within the same range as GP. Further, what, if any, carbon dating has been done on objects that, by normal reasoning, predate GP. Would this not give a bracket within which building of GP will fall, not very precise of course, but should at least preclude the wilder speculations of it's age. Seems more acurate than trying to age the stones themselves.

I must amend my earlier post about Hetepheres. I had forgotten that the small queen's pyramid designated G1a has been attributed to her. Cormac reminded me of this fact. I checked Miroslav Verner's excellent book on the pyramids and he explains how Mark Lehner has suggested Hetepheres was originally buried in G1a, while other scholars argue the little pyramid was for a queen of Khufu's named Meretites (2001: 210-211).

In other books and papers I've read, Hetepheres' original tomb is speculated to have been at Meidum or Dashur, the two principal building grounds of her husband and Khufu's father, Sneferu. It remains only speculative because no tomb at either of those sites can be definitively linked to hers. Nor can G1a for that matter, but it's plausible. In any case her shaft burial G7000x is clearly a secondary burial.

To my knowledge the mortar of the small queens' pyramids on the east side of the Great Pyramid has not been subjected to carbon dating.

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#274    questionmark

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 08:53 AM

View Postkmt_sesh, on 18 October 2012 - 02:15 AM, said:

To my knowledge the mortar of the small queens' pyramids on the east side of the Great Pyramid has not been subjected to carbon dating.

If it was there is no publication about it.

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#275    Tutankhaten-pasheri

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 04:02 PM

View Postkmt_sesh, on 17 October 2012 - 02:42 AM, said:

As I like to point out to the alien crowd and Atlantis fans (et al), modern science has corroborated historical research. :tu:
I was going by Lehner about G1a belonging to Hetephere's. Though I.E.S Edwards writes that she would almost certainly have inhabited the shaft tomb first, not least because of the canopic jar found with it's contents. Sometimes it almost seems that the AE were playing games to confuse us in the future :wacko:

However, not being sure about showing a video in these serious threads, I couldn't resist this video about the time travelling grandad and his grandson who discover the truth about the pyramids. Very short clip from 40 minute cartoon. Don't matter not understanding the words, the pictures tell the story



Edited by Atentutankh-pasheri, 18 October 2012 - 04:18 PM.


#276    cormac mac airt

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 06:12 PM

View PostAtentutankh-pasheri, on 18 October 2012 - 04:02 PM, said:

I was going by Lehner about G1a belonging to Hetephere's. Though I.E.S Edwards writes that she would almost certainly have inhabited the shaft tomb first, not least because of the canopic jar found with it's contents. Sometimes it almost seems that the AE were playing games to confuse us in the future :wacko:

~SNIP~


This is rather backwards thinking on Edwards part IMO, since one would expect to find the Canopic Jars at the same place as the mummy and not in a different location. Which would mean that the last place Hetepheres I was buried, if not the only place, would be G7000x.

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#277    kmt_sesh

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 06:13 PM

View PostAtentutankh-pasheri, on 18 October 2012 - 04:02 PM, said:

I was going by Lehner about G1a belonging to Hetephere's. Though I.E.S Edwards writes that she would almost certainly have inhabited the shaft tomb first, not least because of the canopic jar found with it's contents. Sometimes it almost seems that the AE were playing games to confuse us in the future :wacko:

However, not being sure about showing a video in these serious threads, I couldn't resist this video about the time travelling grandad and his grandson who discover the truth about the pyramids. Very short clip from 40 minute cartoon. Don't matter not understanding the words, the pictures tell the story

>>Snip<<

Ah! So the aliens swore them to secrecy. Just goes to show how good ancient people were at keeping secrets. :D

There are probably numerous reasons that Hetepheres' shaft tomb is considered a secondary burial, but foremost is the fact that although her sarcophagus was found sealed in G7000x, it contained no mummy. Much more interesting for modern Egyptologists, however, is the well-preserved canopic equipment you mentioned—three of the four organs survived 4,500 years. This also constitutes the first definitive evidence for the removal of the internal organs.

Edit: I should emphasize that so the absence of a body but with so much preserved burial equipment and personal items, is very suspicious. This speaks of secondary burial. It's speculated Hetepheres' body was destroyed and could not be reburied, so the tomb builders recovered what they could and prepared a secret burial spot (G7000x) for the new interment.

Edited by kmt_sesh, 18 October 2012 - 06:33 PM.

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#278    LRW

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 02:37 PM

Khufu is fiction. He was about as real as Donald Duck.

He did not build the "Great Pyramid".

The "Great Pyramid" was not a tomb for the fictional character called khufu.

Thats Khufu.

He is the one with the face like a duck.

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#279    LRW

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 02:43 PM

Khufu built his tomb in circa 6MM (mus musculus).

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Edited by LRW, 05 January 2013 - 02:52 PM.


#280    kmt_sesh

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 12:33 AM

Khufu's name in three different forms of his titulary (as well as other information) is preserved inside the relieving chambers above the King's Chamber. The relieving chambers had been sealed in 2500 BCE and were not seen again until Vyse blasted his way into them in the early nineteenth century.

Khufu is further attested by name at Abydos, Serabit el Khadim in the Sinai, in the Western Desert, on the Palermo Stone and other royal annals, and elsewhere. Moreover, his name is found all over the temples and tombs flanking the Great Pyramid.

Taken together, there is no possible doubt that Khufu existed and that he was behind the building of the Great Pyramid.

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