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Scientific evidence of "spirits"

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#1    Arbitran

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 08:28 PM

I've studied the topic to some extent, and I'm rather on the fence about the existence of "spirits". First of all, if someone could give a coherent definition of a "spirit" or "spiritual" (so many times when discussing this, people just throw around these terms, assuming that everyone will know what they're talking about...). Certainly so far, I have seen no convincing scientific evidence of the existence of "spirits".

However, in light of new theories in physics and biology (Sheldrake, Goswami, Bohm, Bell, Swanson, etc.), I find the possibility of unseen and undetected fields or matter-energy forms which science has yet to conclusively observe. For instance, as a biologist myself, I am intrigued by the theories of "morphogenetic fields" as interpreted by the prestigious English biologist Rupert Sheldrake; as a type of invisible, weakly-interacting physical field, which is proposed to organize the morphology and structure of cells, organs, limbs, entire organisms, social groups, and even mental constructs. Given the relative mystique of the process of morphogenesis (the development of the form of an organism; for example, that the cells in your fingers and your toes share the same genome, and yet are shaped differently), I am intrigued by his hypothesis.

Of course, genes are known to have some definite role in the development of particular body forms, and evolve and alter the morphology of a population of organisms over time through allelic frequency shifts and gene flow. This is obvious. And yet, I feel that it would be naive of us to assume that genes are the sole process involved in morphogenesis (as, again, if observed only on a cellular basis or molecular basis, your arm and your leg would be completely indistinguishable). But I digress. To return to spirits, I do not find it completely inconceivable that something like morphic fields or certain aspects of quantum mechanics could be considered "spirits", in some sense.

In particular I find the parallels which can be drawn to Eastern ideology (Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, Shinto) by these scientific theories are remarkable. It has been said that the Sheldrake-Goswami-Bohm model of morphic-quantum field theory is in some ways comparable to animistic or otherwise paranormal concepts, in that these morphic or quantum fields are claimed as having intrinsic properties of "memory", and in their proposed organization of mental processes, hypothetically could be thought of as having a sort of "consciousness" or inherent "life" to them. Concepts such as qi and prana likewise fail to escape my attention when thinking of such things. So might "spirits" or claimed "paranormal" phenomena be explainable through complex theories such as the Sheldrake-Goswami-Bohm field model, or Claude Swanson's "synchronized universe" hypothesis? Admittedly, I'm no expert in physics, but I evidently understand it well enough to think there could be something to these theories (the fact that eminent physicists such as David Bohm are involved is doubly impressive).

And as far as biology goes, it's fascinating at the very least; and potentially groundbreaking at best. It certainly would appear to explain a number of very enigmatic phenomena. So, any thoughts? And to return to the original premise of this thread (sorry for the slight deviation), does anyone claim to have scientific evidence of "spirits", or any alternative hypotheses, which might explain any number of the phenomena noted above? I will thank you all in advance for your assistance.

Edited by Arbitran, 10 September 2012 - 08:30 PM.

Try to realize it's all within yourself / No-one else can make you change / And to see you're really only very small / And life flows on within you and without you. / We were talking about the love that's gone so cold and the people / Who gain the world and lose their soul / They don't know they can't see are you one of them? / When you've seen beyond yourself then you may find peace of mind / Is waiting there / And the time will come / when you see we're all one and life flows on within you and without you. ~ George Harrison

#2    WhyDontYouBeliEveMe

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 08:41 PM

i dont understand a word you have said . are you perhaps talking about the movie prometheus?


#3    Arbitran

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 08:42 PM

View PostWhyDontYouBeliEveMe, on 10 September 2012 - 08:41 PM, said:

i dont understand a word you have said . are you perhaps talking about the movie prometheus?

Of course not. It's all a bit scientific, sure, but either way...

Try to realize it's all within yourself / No-one else can make you change / And to see you're really only very small / And life flows on within you and without you. / We were talking about the love that's gone so cold and the people / Who gain the world and lose their soul / They don't know they can't see are you one of them? / When you've seen beyond yourself then you may find peace of mind / Is waiting there / And the time will come / when you see we're all one and life flows on within you and without you. ~ George Harrison

#4    GreenmansGod

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 08:43 PM

There is something going on, but I can't put it in a bottle and sell it on eBay.  In my mind yes there are spirits from my own experience.  What they are or how it works, I don't know.  I think it has something to do with vibration...

"The world is changed. I feel it in the water. I feel it in the earth. I smell it in the air. Much that once was is lost; for none now live who remember it."  Galadriel

#5    Arbitran

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 08:47 PM

View PostDarkwind, on 10 September 2012 - 08:43 PM, said:

There is something going on, but I can't put it in a bottle and sell it on eBay.  In my mind yes there are spirits from my own experience.  What they are or how it works, I don't know.  I think it has something to do with vibration...

It's all quite fascinating. For example, we've never seen or directly detected even a speck of dark matter, we simply see it's effects. I'm intriguing by the possibility of things like Sheldrake's morphic fields, and the possibility that there are forces or fields, perhaps all around us, that we haven't detected. I mean, dark matter is passing through our bodies every single second, and we've never observed a single speck. Who's to say there aren't other things about our universe that we simply haven't detected yet? That's part of the certain mystique I suppose there is to the Sheldrake-Goswami-Bohm model...

Try to realize it's all within yourself / No-one else can make you change / And to see you're really only very small / And life flows on within you and without you. / We were talking about the love that's gone so cold and the people / Who gain the world and lose their soul / They don't know they can't see are you one of them? / When you've seen beyond yourself then you may find peace of mind / Is waiting there / And the time will come / when you see we're all one and life flows on within you and without you. ~ George Harrison

#6    Professor T

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 08:54 PM

If you consider that an Aura of energy is proof of the existence of spirit, then science has already discovered it.
The tip of this leaf was cut off prior to having it's aura photographed, yet the outline of the cut tip of the leaf is still there.

Posted Image


#7    Arbitran

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 08:59 PM

View PostProfessor T, on 10 September 2012 - 08:54 PM, said:

If you consider that an Aura of energy is proof of the existence of spirit, then science has already discovered it.
The tip of this leaf was cut off prior to having it's aura photographed, yet the outline of the cut tip of the leaf is still there.

Posted Image

I do consider that a possibility. I've heard refutations of Kirlian photography, so I'm a bit on the fence about it. Although this particular photography would be explainable under one aspect of the Sheldrake-Goswami-Bohm model: namely, that the field[s] that comprise and permeate the leaf would still be present, even if part of the leaf is removed. It's not completely unreasonable.

Try to realize it's all within yourself / No-one else can make you change / And to see you're really only very small / And life flows on within you and without you. / We were talking about the love that's gone so cold and the people / Who gain the world and lose their soul / They don't know they can't see are you one of them? / When you've seen beyond yourself then you may find peace of mind / Is waiting there / And the time will come / when you see we're all one and life flows on within you and without you. ~ George Harrison

#8    Ashotep

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 09:25 PM

I don't know how you would get scientific evidence of spirits, at least none anyone will buy.  Its hard to convince someone of a ghost, spirit, whatever until they have a an encounter themselves.  Unless they can come up with something that can actually tap into that realm of existence.

I saw a ghost so I don't need convincing.  Do I believe every story that is told, of course not.


#9    Blueogre2

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 09:41 PM

Ahh... Now this is what I am talking about. A scientific theory that admits at least the chance that "spirits" or at least lifeforms similar to what people commonly think of as spirits. Excellent post Arbitran. Some people claim to be able to sense spirits, and I myself have at times felt like their is someone around me even when their is no body their, I have no idea how that would work scientifically through.


#10    Professor T

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 09:52 PM

View PostArbitran, on 10 September 2012 - 08:59 PM, said:

I do consider that a possibility. I've heard refutations of Kirlian photography, so I'm a bit on the fence about it.
There will always be refutations about every scrap of evidence no matter how grand that evidence is..
At the end of the day it takes a personal experience or leap of faith to make one believe.


#11    White Crane Feather

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 10:13 PM

View PostArbitran, on 10 September 2012 - 08:59 PM, said:



I do consider that a possibility. I've heard refutations of Kirlian photography, so I'm a bit on the fence about it. Although this particular photography would be explainable under one aspect of the Sheldrake-Goswami-Bohm model: namely, that the field[s] that comprise and permeate the leaf would still be present, even if part of the leaf is removed. It's not completely unreasonable.
Snip

Edited by Seeker79, 10 September 2012 - 10:14 PM.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#12    White Crane Feather

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 10:15 PM

View PostProfessor T, on 10 September 2012 - 08:54 PM, said:

If you consider that an Aura of energy is proof of the existence of spirit, then science has already discovered it.
The tip of this leaf was cut off prior to having it's aura photographed, yet the outline of the cut tip of the leaf is still there.

Posted Image
Interesting. Is that potograph repeatable?

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#13    White Crane Feather

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 10:16 PM

I was supposed to attend sheldrakes lecture this week, but to tied up.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#14    Professor T

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 10:25 PM

View PostSeeker79, on 10 September 2012 - 10:15 PM, said:

Interesting. Is that potograph repeatable?

I think so. I havn't looked into this much myself, but have an old book on the subject somewhere..

Here's a pretty cool one.. thanks google.  

Posted Image


#15    rashore

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 11:10 PM

Kirlain photography is what the images are I do believe.

Your ad hominem connotes your sciolism. Now that is some funny commentary.





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