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Scientific evidence of "spirits"

ghost spirit paranormal evidence skeptical

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#76    White Crane Feather

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 11:57 PM

View PostWhite Unicorn, on 22 September 2012 - 06:21 PM, said:



This is logical
If there are no trees or plants in an area it doesn't mean that photo synthesis doesn't still exist.  It just exists in another time or place.
I'm not sure if that is the right analogy, but yes.... The laws are fundamental, therefore things like photo synthesis must work according to where the laws apply. the laws are not physical, they are above physical and govern physical. This is the little known axiom of the materialists. A true materialists, logically, must conceded that something inmaterial governs the material, therefore materialism is not fundamental reality.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
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#77    Rlyeh

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 08:47 AM

View PostWhite Unicorn, on 22 September 2012 - 06:21 PM, said:

This is logical
If there are no trees or plants in an area it doesn't mean that photo synthesis doesn't still exist. It just exists in another time or place.
Bad example. The claim is the laws existed before the objects. In your example it would be photosynthesis existing before plant or cellular life.

View PostSeeker79, on 22 September 2012 - 08:30 PM, said:

It happens every moment of every day. "empty" space has the propensity to have moving body move through it.
In fact I could probably make an argument that most space has never seen a moving body larger than photons.
Can you show me "nothing" moving? What about a speeding car before cars existed?

That's the same logic you're arguing for.

Quote

The laws exist independent of the body. The law allows for the body to exist in the first place. If it did not the body could not hold form.
You don't seem to understand the laws are derived from the behaviour of the objects.

You're trying to create a dichotomy by splitting the universe from it's laws, from it's properities.

Edited by Rlyeh, 23 September 2012 - 09:27 AM.


#78    Rlyeh

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 09:03 AM

View PostSeeker79, on 22 September 2012 - 11:57 PM, said:

I'm not sure if that is the right analogy, but yes.... The laws are fundamental, therefore things like photo synthesis must work according to where the laws apply. the laws are not physical, they are above physical and govern physical. This is the little known axiom of the materialists. A true materialists, logically, must conceded that something inmaterial governs the material, therefore materialism is not fundamental reality.
Spoken like a true charlatan. And you still resort to straw men, didn't you learn anything last time you tried to tell materialists what they believe?


#79    White Crane Feather

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 03:22 PM

View PostRlyeh, on 23 September 2012 - 08:47 AM, said:

Bad example. The claim is the laws existed before the objects. In your example it would be photosynthesis existing before plant or cellular life.

Can you show me "nothing" moving? What about a speeding car before cars existed?

That's the same logic you're arguing for.

You don't seem to understand the laws are derived from the behaviour of the objects.

You're trying to create a dichotomy by splitting the universe from it's laws, from it's properities.
Our observance of the laws certainly is, but to think that the object creates its own propensity to be able to behave that way is just silly. The law has nothing to do with the object itself. It's probably the same everywhere in the universe regardless if something is there. You are not suggesting that our observance of the law brings it into being are you? That would be an interesting flip flop in your usual rhetoric.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#80    White Crane Feather

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 03:25 PM

View PostRlyeh, on 23 September 2012 - 09:03 AM, said:

Spoken like a true charlatan. And you still resort to straw men, didn't you learn anything last time you tried to tell materialists what they believe?
I'm not telling anyone what to believe its rather like a christian not believing in the resurrection. Materialism needs laws for material to exist and behave. The laws must be more fundamental than what they act upon.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#81    Rlyeh

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 03:27 PM

View PostSeeker79, on 23 September 2012 - 03:22 PM, said:

Our observance of the laws certainly is
If you want to get trivial, laws didn't exist until humans conceived them, as laws are human descriptions of observed behaviour found in nature (the universe).
http://blogs.scienti...physics-anyway/

Quote

The law has nothing to do with the object itself. It's probably the same everywhere in the universe regardless if something is there. You are not suggesting that our observance of the law brings it into being are you? That would be an interesting flip flop in your usual rhetoric.
Nope. I'm suggesting the behaviour is part of the object/body/universe. You can't have one without the other.

I don't believe you can separate them in the way you are doing.

Edited by Rlyeh, 23 September 2012 - 03:33 PM.


#82    Rlyeh

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 03:29 PM

View PostSeeker79, on 23 September 2012 - 03:25 PM, said:

I'm not telling anyone what to believe its rather like a christian not believing in the resurrection. Materialism needs laws for material to exist and behave. The laws must be more fundamental than what they act upon.
You realise materialism is the idea everything is derived from matter/energy? Laws included (both the concept and the phenomena).

Edited by Rlyeh, 23 September 2012 - 03:31 PM.


#83    White Crane Feather

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 03:35 PM

View PostRlyeh, on 23 September 2012 - 03:29 PM, said:

You realise materialism is the idea everything is derived from matter/energy? Laws included (both the concept and the phenomena).
Correct, that is why it is wrong. That matter/energy is governed by some set of immaterial rules that must exist in order for matter/energy to do anything. If there were no rules it could not exist.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#84    Rlyeh

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 03:38 PM

View PostSeeker79, on 23 September 2012 - 03:35 PM, said:

Correct, that is why it is wrong. That matter/energy is governed by some set of immaterial rules that must exist in order for matter/energy to do anything. If there were no rules it could not exist.
If there were no matter/energy the behaviour wouldn't exist.


#85    White Crane Feather

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 03:41 PM

View PostRlyeh, on 23 September 2012 - 03:38 PM, said:

If there were no matter/energy the behaviour wouldn't exist.
But the propensity for it certainly would.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#86    Rlyeh

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 03:48 PM

View PostSeeker79, on 23 September 2012 - 03:41 PM, said:

But the propensity for it certainly would.
There is nothing, no universe, no behaviour, nothing, not even empty space. But the tendency does exist?
Propensity requires behaviour, behaviour is derived from properities, interactions. This is nonsensical.

Sounds like you think materialists should accept your illogical thinking.

Edited by Rlyeh, 23 September 2012 - 03:50 PM.


#87    White Crane Feather

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 03:57 PM

View PostRlyeh, on 23 September 2012 - 03:48 PM, said:

There is nothing, no universe, no behaviour, nothing, not even empty space. But the tendency does exist?
Propensity requires behaviour, behaviour is derived from properities, interactions. This is nonsensical.

Sounds like you think materialists should accept your illogical thinking.
Rhly can you think of a point in the history of the universe in which there was no space, no time, no energy as we kniw it , and then poof all of sudden there was? Quit obviously the propensity still exists when  "things" do not.


"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#88    Rlyeh

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 04:05 PM

View PostSeeker79, on 23 September 2012 - 03:57 PM, said:

Rhly can you think of a point in the history of the universe in which there was no space, no time, no energy as we kniw it , and then poof all of sudden there was? Quit obviously the propensity still exists when  "things" do not.
Not if you consider various theories such as the string or M-theory. Time and space are made up of "stuff".


#89    White Unicorn

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 07:26 PM

View PostRlyeh, on 23 September 2012 - 08:47 AM, said:

Bad example. The claim is the laws existed before the objects. In your example it would be photosynthesis existing before plant or cellular life.

Can you show me "nothing" moving? What about a speeding car before cars existed?

That's the same logic you're arguing for.

You don't seem to understand the laws are derived from the behaviour of the objects.

You're trying to create a dichotomy by splitting the universe from it's laws, from it's properities
.

Photo sythesis would be a unmanifest law that a plant developes with the harmony of an existing law. In order to become a plant that could use photo synthesis, the form has to evolve from what is in the enviroment and the enviroment would include a potential law of nature that is already present even if there are no plants manifesting it yet.  

Law of speed always exists with in time. The car would not exist if the law of speed did not exist because the car is an object that uses the law of speed. Speed exists in the expansion of the universe because of the manifestation of the law of time.

It works both ways,  so you both are correct. It depends on where the effects are being observed.  There is a harmony between opposites that creates physical matter.  Matter in turn can influence the effects of the laws by their behavior but they don't actually change the natural laws.  


#90    Emma_Acid

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 07:46 PM

View PostWhite Unicorn, on 22 September 2012 - 07:36 PM, said:

You are like a fish saying electric eels don't exist just because you have not personally seen the demonstration of its effect. LOL  

You were right; you don't have an argument.


View PostProfessor T, on 22 September 2012 - 10:30 PM, said:

Are you then denying that science has been discovering undenyable truths to what sceptics would call paranormal and spritual rubbish?

I have been asking for examples of this for several pages now. And yes - I am denying that science is discovering "undenyable truths" to what I call paranormal rubbish.

Prove me wrong.

Edited by Emma_Acid, 23 September 2012 - 07:47 PM.

"Science is the least subjective form of deduction" ~ A. Mulder





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