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Did man and dinosaur co-exist?


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#106    Rlyeh

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 08:35 AM

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 22 September 2012 - 08:30 AM, said:

Law of increasing entropy seems to stand against formation of complex polymers or biological molecules by chance and spontaneously without a guiding biochemical process.
How many scientists claim molecules form by "chance" and without a chemical process?

Entropy increases in an isolated system, earth isn't such a system.


#107    Harsh86_Patel

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 08:43 AM

View PostRlyeh, on 22 September 2012 - 08:35 AM, said:

How many scientists claim molecules form by "chance" and without a chemical process?

Entropy increases in an isolated system, earth isn't such a system.
Take the universe as a closed system then.Now you would talk about entropy can decrease in a localised manner isn't it?(mind you we are talking about natural processes).
Truth of the matter is that if you ask any chemist he will tell you that large chain biomolecules are not favoured to form naturally and spontaneously and tend to break up and disintegrate.


#108    Rlyeh

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 08:48 AM

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 22 September 2012 - 08:43 AM, said:

Take the universe as a closed system then.Now you would talk about entropy can decrease in a localised manner isn't it?(mind you we are talking about natural processes).
So by your argument stars shouldn't be forming either...
The universe hasn't reached equilibrium.

Quote

Truth of the matter is that if you ask any chemist he will tell you that large chain biomolecules are not favoured to form naturally and spontaneously and tend to break up and disintegrate.
Will he tell me they form without any known chemical process just like magic?

And what does "not favoured to form naturally" mean? Are they being formed artificially then?

Edited by Rlyeh, 22 September 2012 - 08:49 AM.


#109    Harsh86_Patel

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 08:55 AM

View PostRlyeh, on 22 September 2012 - 08:48 AM, said:

So by your argument stars shouldn't be forming either...
The universe hasn't reached equilibrium.

Will he tell me they form without any known chemical process just like magic?

And what does "not favoured to form naturally" mean? Are they being formed artificially then?
So how where did matter and energy come from?since you want to talk about stars,you can try pondering on this question.
No the chemist would probably be honest and tell you that we don't know.
By naturally i mean without guidance from a biochemical cycle.Or without the help of Catalyses(more specifically protein catalysis in case of biological systems).


#110    Rlyeh

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 09:00 AM

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 22 September 2012 - 08:55 AM, said:

So how where did matter and energy come from?since you want to talk about stars,you can try pondering on this question.
Were you speaking of entropy, or are you just going to continue to change the topic everytime your claim gets countered?

It's amazing how fast creationists run back to "why does the universe exist" when their real points get countered.

Edited by Rlyeh, 22 September 2012 - 09:04 AM.


#111    Sir Wearer of Hats

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 10:50 PM

View PostHasina, on 19 September 2012 - 03:30 AM, said:

I'd use a Utahraptor, way cooler then any of y'all's picks.
Only person I can think of who'd be able to joust on a Utahraptor is Peter Dinkleage....

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#112    Aus Der Box Skeptisch

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 11:08 PM

I skipped a crap load of pages so if this was Said I apologize. What is considered dinosaur. It seems an umbrella term for animals from long ago. Might I suggest looking at birds... raptors are a good example... well so is the Chinese silky chicken LOL. Also crocodiles.   Snakes. They are all in their own way family to dinosaurs. So I guess my answer would be simply yes. And we are still coexisting.

Edited by Aus Der Box Skeptisch, 22 September 2012 - 11:09 PM.

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#113    Hasina

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 11:22 PM

View PostWearer of Hats, on 22 September 2012 - 10:50 PM, said:


Only person I can think of who'd be able to joust on a Utahraptor is Peter Dinkleage....

Average Utah's size was 23ft long with a minimum height of about 6ft. I could do it! And their possible weight was comparable to a grizzly. ;D

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#114    Supersquatch

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 11:36 PM

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 13 September 2012 - 02:49 PM, said:


This same argument could be used by creationists asking why coal still has small amounts of carbon 14 in it. Carbon 14 in fossils and coal "may indicate possible contamination by small amounts of bacteria, underground sources of radiation causing the 14N(n,p) 14C reaction, direct uranium decay (although reported measured ratios of 14C/U in uranium-bearing ores would imply roughly 1 uranium atom for every two carbon atoms in order to cause the 14C/12C ratio, measured to be on the order of 10−15), or other unknown secondary sources of carbon-14 production. Presence of carbon-14 in the isotopic signature of a sample of carbonaceous material possibly indicates its contamination by biogenic sources or the decay of radioactive material in surrounding geologic strata."

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 18 September 2012 - 05:10 AM, said:

As someone pointed out let us not turn this into a evolution vs logic and science debate.
Lets talk about the results that were got when these dino fossils were carbon dated,is the process of carbon dating easily susceptible to contamination and hence fallible and not completely reliable or dinosaurs did co-exixt with man.

You can't carbon date dinosaurs, as the half-life of carbon 14 is only 5,730 years. Of course it would be inaccurate, as dinosaurs died off 65 million years ago.

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 22 September 2012 - 08:55 AM, said:

So how where did matter and energy come from?

The laws of matter and thermodynamics state that matter and energy cannot be created or destroyed.

Edited by Taylor Reints, 22 September 2012 - 11:41 PM.

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#115    Oniomancer

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 12:08 AM

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 18 September 2012 - 05:10 AM, said:

As someone pointed out let us not turn this into a evolution vs logic and science debate.
Lets talk about the results that were got when these dino fossils were carbon dated,is the process of carbon dating easily susceptible to contamination and hence fallible and not completely reliable or dinosaurs did co-exixt with man.

Yes, let's.  You realize of course this is being used to back a young earth claim, which runs counter to your friend cremo's ancient mankind vedic creationism. They can't both be right., and that's giving them enormous leeway to assume even one of them is.

Interesting that they claim to have unmineralized dino bone in their hot little hands but are making all the fuss over the dates only. No peer reviewed presentation of any aspect of their find. the date or the condition, which would be fairly important in itself. No independent verification.  And farming out all their work to an outside lab too. That doesn't sound very professional. If I read right, somebody else actually found the specimens to begin with, so they're riding on someone else's coattails all the way. They talk about the lab's contamination protocols but what about their own? I won't even get into the calibration side of things, which you seem to think is so cut and dried.
Speaking of the bone, isn't it funny that practically no sooner does one make the news showing such a thing to be possible then they come out and say "that's nothing. we've got three of them."  I for one will be waiting on those all-important reproducible results...but not too closely.

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#116    Oniomancer

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 12:24 AM

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 22 September 2012 - 08:23 AM, said:

RBC's and other soft tissues cannot survive for millions of years naturally.Unless ofcourse they have been frozen but finding RBC's in dino bones is very interesting and raises a lot of questions.

If they can survive frozen, there's no reason why a similar process such as polymerization as in amber couldn't have the same effect. (which it in fact does as demonstrated by extant preserved specimens) Remove oxygen and exposure to strong energy sources and there's no oxidation and little or no induced molecular breakdown.

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#117    Sir Wearer of Hats

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 02:16 AM

View PostHasina, on 22 September 2012 - 11:22 PM, said:

Average Utah's size was 23ft long with a minimum height of about 6ft. I could do it! And their possible weight was comparable to a grizzly. ;D
*evasive answer* I was talking about the coolness factor of riding a Utahraptor */evasive answer*

well you learn something new every day, I thought all the -raptors where tiny.

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#118    Idano

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 02:35 AM

Yeah but we could keep the dishwasher outside and only bring the trunk in when we need it!  And I wanted to be Abramelrock  please please

What could possibly go wrong?

#119    Arbitran

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 02:39 AM

No, humans and dinosaurs have never seen one another, unless you count birds of course (which everyone should). But anyway, non-avian dinosaurs went extinct approximately 65 million years ago; and given that modern humans have been around for less than 200,000 years, it is entirely obvious that they never met. Well, except in fiction of course...

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#120    Harte

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 04:00 AM

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 22 September 2012 - 08:30 AM, said:

Law of increasing entropy seems to stand against formation of complex polymers or biological molecules by chance and spontaneously without a guiding biochemical process.

It seems that way because you yourself don't understand entropy, which always increases only in closed systems.

The Earth is hardly a closed system.

Also, over a decade ago it was found that some self-assembling microstructures actually represent an increase in entropy over what you might consider a more random state which they occupy prior to self-assembly.

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