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The Girl Scout Camp Murders

girl scout murder oklahoma

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#106    regi

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 01:30 PM

View PostTaun, on 04 October 2012 - 06:10 PM, said:

Another site:

http://claremoreprog...eyword=topstory

Has these bits of additional info:

"In 1990 (Gene) Haynes was elected to office as the District Attorney serving Rogers, Mayes, and Craig Counties.

“I was warned calls would come in,” said Haynes. “I was told I should get acquainted with the case.”

Haynes read boxes of information on the case prior to taking office in January 1991. There were Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation reports, a transcript from the preliminary hearing and photographs.

There were no trial transcripts because Gene Leroy Hart, the suspect tried for the crime, was acquitted.

Haynes said in the case of a conviction a transcript is made because there could be an appeal. In an acquittal, though notes are taken, no transcript exists."

So - no trial transcript....

Thanks for this info.
For those who don't know, of course, all trial proceedings are recorded (referred to by Haynes as "notes") so what this means is that a record of the trial exists, it's just not been transcribed.

Well, the entire pretrial transcript would be enlightening...

Edited by regi, 05 October 2012 - 01:33 PM.


#107    regi

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 04:41 PM

View PostTaun, on 05 October 2012 - 01:27 PM, said:

I think they were referring to the shamanistic aspects... The two medicine men, the supposed curses on the dogs and on Hart... The odd behaviour of the counselors, People thinking Hart was a Skinwalker/shapechanger, etc...

Oh, okay. Yeah... that stuff.
Well, let's look at that. All of that you mentioned (except that re: the counselors) was introduced later by the investigators...it was their perceptions and conclusions.
What investigators did with that was they used it as "logical" explanations (excuses in some instances, in my opinion) for why certain things occurred, or didn't occur during the course of the investigation, and since Hart was Indian, they used it against him...him specifically.
Surely, Hart wasn't the only Indian in the territory, and they apparently hadn't known where he'd been, or when he'd been where. I also don't think he was the only one who had access to, or could have used any of those caves.

Those photos- found near one cave that they said was three miles south, southwest of Camp Scott, were the only piece of evidence linked specifically to Hart, and it's unfortunate that we have no explanation for how the heck Hart could have had possession of them.
The other evidence linking Hart specifically to the crime scene was the mirror and pipe, and those items weren't recovered until a second search which took place AFTER some of the pretrial testimony (pt. 4 doc. @ 12:18), which to a lot of people, was a highly questionable circumstance.
We also have completely conflicting evidence re: analysis of specimens collected.
I don't know if it was taken out of context, but if the ME ever stated that he didn't find semen "on" the bodies, then to me that suggests that he also hadn't found it elsewhere, and (considering that language) that he likely didn't find other evidence of rape.


#108    regi

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 03:15 PM

I found excerpts from the book Tent Number 8 on a google books site, and if it's accurate info, it helps to somewhat clarify a couple of things.

1) Page 69 "Hart was captured on April 6, 1978 at 4:15pm at a three room cabin in Cookson Hills, south of Tahlequah, Oklahoma. The cabin was owned by a local Indian man, Sam Pigeon. Sam Pigeon was later charged with the crime of harboring a fugitive. William Smith, another Cherokee Indian, was also charged. Their charges were eventually dropped after Hart's acquittal."

Well, I don't understand why the charges would be dropped...

2) Re: the first attorney, something-Oliver (sorry), according to the book, page 83, he withdrew from the case not because he thought Hart was guilty, but because he learned he'd be replaced.
The book says that Oliver later spoke about Hart and that he said he did think he could have done it. He spoke of the negative vibes he said he'd had about Hart.
What struck me as very strange was that Oliver made mention of Hart's drinking...that Hart didn't drink any more than he did, but that it affected Hart differently.
The book said Oliver wouldn't elaborate further.

On page 102 was mention of the preliminary hearing and the camp officials testimony. It reminded me of something that had occurred to me earlier and that's Wilhite's testimony about hearing a noise outside a few nights earlier.
She said the dog was outside and growling.
So, where was the dog on the night of the murders?

Edited by regi, 21 October 2012 - 03:16 PM.


#109    Taun

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 02:14 AM

Good question about the dog... I've not heard any other mention of it - so perhaps the dog was there before the girls got there - when I would suppose staff were preparing for the up coming arrival of the girls from Tulsa, but then perhaps the dog was taken away before the kids arrived...   My only reasonable theory about this....


#110    regi

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 01:31 PM

Maybe that's reasonable, but I think it's doubtful because she was described as the camp dog. Her name was Sally.

Pretrial testimony, page 143

Q Who does Sally belong to?

A The camp.

Q What did Sally do when she came running across the yard?

A She started barking and growling.

Q Did you ever see what she was barking or growling at?

A No.

Q Did you hear anything else?

A Not after that. I just grabbed my blanket while she was starting to chase whatever it was and I ran across and got Dee Elder because I knew she was in the Quapaw unit and I got her and a few other people up and they came in and sat with me until I fell asleep and then Jody Davis came in the house the rest of the night.


#111    Taun

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 02:49 PM

I just did a word search for "Sally" and "dog" in the book Tent Number Eight and the name Sally isn't in it and 'dog' only links to the search dogs...  I'm going to have to add this to my (growing) list of things to investigate...

I would really love to take a few days and actually sit down and talk with who ever is currently 'handling' this case... But with my work schedule (It's Sunday and I'm just about to go back in to work - double overtime) that's probably not going to happen...


edit: Crap I can't even keep track of what day of the week it is... Todays Monday (doesn't change my work schedule though, thank goodness or I'd be several hours late!!!!)....

Edited by Taun, 22 October 2012 - 03:07 PM.


#112    regi

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 12:10 PM

View PostTaun, on 22 October 2012 - 02:49 PM, said:

I would really love to take a few days and actually sit down and talk with who ever is currently 'handling' this case...

I started to say that that makes two of us, but after thinking about it, I don't think I would. Actually, I can't think of anyone involved that I'd really want to speak with.
I'd much rather spend time at the Mayes County Courthouse with the transcripts from the pretrial and the closing arguments, and the transcript from the '71 case against Hart.
I don't think anything else I'd like to see would be available.
Sources other than that that the author of that book used were newspaper articles- and possibly other publications- and of those, I know of a couple of articles I'd like to see from the Daily Times and The Paper that I imagine would be in the library archives in Tulsa, or maybe in Pryor.? Both papers are out of Pryor....

I was thinking more about the Sally situation and I remembered that it had rained late afternoon/eve and so maybe she was put up in a shelter. Of course, it could have been protocol that Sally be contained anytime that camp was in session, but I'm left to wonder since she was free to roam before.


Taun...it's now Wednesday...hehehe


#113    regi

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 02:52 PM

I just thought of two other incidents I'd like to know a lot more about...the burglary at the farmhouse, and the burglary at that grocery store (I think it was called Sam's Corner)-  which was reported to have occurred shortly after the murders.
From what I understand, the crime reports should be available to the public- at least the initial police reports should be.


#114    regi

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 03:49 PM

It occurred to me that all of the items reported missing from the camp were missing from the tents of counselors.
Now, that's strange, isn't it?
I'm also finding it strange that the two purses- and I assume any contents of those- were never recovered.
(I've realized that the civil trial transcript would also contain valuable info., so I'll add it to my list of must-see documents.)


#115    Taun

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 07:28 PM

View Postregi, on 29 October 2012 - 03:49 PM, said:

It occurred to me that all of the items reported missing from the camp were missing from the tents of counselors.
Now, that's strange, isn't it?
I'm also finding it strange that the two purses- and I assume any contents of those- were never recovered.
(I've realized that the civil trial transcript would also contain valuable info., so I'll add it to my list of must-see documents.)

I'm not sure but I think most if not all of the stolen items were taken before the kids arrived... If so then the items had to have been taken from the conselors...  I STILL haven't found a concise time line (multi-day) to account for all the weird stuff that happened in this case... So really - I'm not sure about virtually ANY times that I've heard... I've never read of an exact time of death - just "The night of ..."... The times 2:30, 3:00 and 3:30 am keep getting mentioned but what tme did the coroner put on the actual crimes?...


#116    regi

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 08:31 PM

I think you're mistaken, Taun. I don't think anything was missing before the night of the murders, and everything reported missing was recovered with the exception of the purses.
Now, it seems Wilhite testified at the prelim. hearing that an axe was missing from wherever it was supposed to be, and I don't know if the axe was still considered missing, but it doesn't seem to be linked to the crime.

Quapaw counselor Kathy Elder Wise reported her purse missing.
Choctaw counselor Karen Mitchell was who the mirror and pipe belonged to.
Kiowa counselor Wilhite reported glasses w/ glass case, and kapo.
Wilhite's co-counselor reported sunglasses and purse.
While we're on the subject, there was mention in the doc. of a pair of lace panties found in cave #1, and I don't know the origin of those. To my knowledge, they weren't reported missing, or identified later...

Re: weird stuff happening, I came across an article dated 6-27-78 from The Oklahoman which reported on the prelim hearing and reported that counselor Celia Stall stated that she and other counselors were awakened after midnight and found a small child that had been sleep walking. Stall testified "She couldn't remember screaming at all." I think this can account for other statements from campers that they heard a child cry out.
(I must have come across this on the girlscoutmurders.com website.)

Edited by regi, 29 October 2012 - 08:33 PM.


#117    MATTHEWAK47

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 04:25 PM

View PostTaun, on 29 October 2012 - 07:28 PM, said:

I'm not sure but I think most if not all of the stolen items were taken before the kids arrived... If so then the items had to have been taken from the conselors...  I STILL haven't found a concise time line (multi-day) to account for all the weird stuff that happened in this case... So really - I'm not sure about virtually ANY times that I've heard... I've never read of an exact time of death - just "The night of ..."... The times 2:30, 3:00 and 3:30 am keep getting mentioned but what tme did the coroner put on the actual crimes?...
I have been all over this place up and down snake and spring creeks and have found cave #1!
If there is any one that would like to go out there but not to camp scoot at this time I would love to talk to you.
I have some good info about the lay out and the land around there from just going down the creeks on the weekends off from work.
My email is Matthewak4716@gmail.com


#118    Taun

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 04:33 PM

View PostMATTHEWAK47, on 30 October 2012 - 04:25 PM, said:

I have been all over this place up and down snake and spring creeks and have found cave #1!
If there is any one that would like to go out there but not to camp scoot at this time I would love to talk to you.
I have some good info about the lay out and the land around there from just going down the creeks on the weekends off from work.
My email is Matthewak4716@gmail.com

I'd be interested.. It's only 2 hours from my home... I understand that Camp Scot is private land now and they do not grant access, but looking at the cave and seeing how close (or not) it is to the crime scene would be interesting... I'll contact you as soon as I find out what my weekend work schedule looks like...


#119    regi

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 04:41 PM

This case is gonna drive me to drinkin'.

Wilhite didn't testify about an axe in the prelim. hearing...I checked. I read through the entire prelim testimony of Wilhite and Elder.
That came from that site girlscoutmurders.yuku.
A poster came on the board and claimed to be Wilhite. Some members were skeptical, but some were confident that the poster was indeed Wilhite. Me? I'm not so sure for a couple of reasons, but this poster was asked about a hachet, and the response was that yes, a hachet wasn't in the inventory of the unit kitchen performed during precamp.

At one time, the poster was asked two questions- one about Sally, the camp dog, but only the first question was answered.

The poster said that investigators believed a woman could have committed the murders because "they found no semen and the disturbing fact that some objects had been used to sexually penetrate them."

This info can be found by going to that yuku site on the case and typing Carla Wilhite in the search bar. Many threads will come up, but the threads contain info. I haven't heard before and articles I've never seen.
The specific thread is on page 2, at the top of the page.

An article from The Pryor Jefferson archive, dated 6-23-77, spoke about the burglary on property owned by Jack Shroff's....that Shroff was from Tulsa, and the burglary was reported "last Monday."
According to the article "Shroff also reported a crowbar was taken" and that "Authorities found a crowbar at Camp Scott but declined to say whether it was the death weapon."
It went on to say "He said Saturday that his house was burglarized again on Thursday or Friday, but nothing but a roll of toliet paper was taken. Shroff said his house has been burglarized eight times since 1969."

Going through the prelim trans.  y e t   a g a i n  wasn't a complete waste of time. I couldn't see straight afterwards, but I was surprised that a few things caught my attention that I had either overlooked, or didn't put much thought into before.
One thing was that Wilhite woke up by her alarm clock, put on her glasses and got out of bed.
Is it interesting that that particular pair of glasses weren't taken? I don't know what to make of it, but I do think it's odd.


#120    MATTHEWAK47

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 04:49 PM

View PostTaun, on 30 October 2012 - 04:33 PM, said:

I'd be interested.. It's only 2 hours from my home... I understand that Camp Scot is private land now and they do not grant access, but looking at the cave and seeing how close (or not) it is to the crime scene would be interesting... I'll contact you as soon as I find out what my weekend work schedule looks like...
I live in Tulsa so I am there when I can be,let me know when you would like to go. The only thing at this time is that we can't walk in the creek because of the cold in the summer time I go and will camp out on the creek just to get a feel for the land, I have to say it's a little scary at night out there but thats what makes it all the better.





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