242 replies to this topic

[MATTHEWAK47]

Here is a shot of cave 1 it is south east of camp Scoot but Hart's mothers house west of it.

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Edited by MATTHEWAK47, 02 November 2012 - 03:17 PM.

[regi]

MATTHEWAK47, on 02 November 2012 - 02:30 PM, said:

I have been to cave #1 on the Spring creek and will tell you if you go by the river from cave 1 to camp scoot frist Spring then Snake creek it took me almost 5 hours to walk that bad boy and I had to set down to eat.( lots fo walking)
So I would say Hart didn't go right to cave 1 after the killings but to a house or his mothers house to clean up and to hid things that he took with him.( his mothe's house is less then a mile from camp Scoot )
That is just too much walking and not being seen unless he used NDN magic.

My approach is to try to focus on the evidence and not so much on a suspect.
It would have been danged nice if the OSBI applied some of the same logic Taun did in his above post.
Even the parents have questions, and they were present in the courtroom.

A sticking point for me is that this was a small town and a lot of rural area, and a lot of folks who live there have lived there their entire lives.
My point is, wherever Hart's mother lived, it seems it wouldn't have made a difference. It would have been close enough for authorities or anyone else to use it against him.
I haven't heard any evidence that Hart was even in that area.

[MATTHEWAK47]

regi, on 02 November 2012 - 04:55 PM, said:

My approach is to try to focus on the evidence and not so much on a suspect.
It would have been danged nice if the OSBI applied some of the same logic Taun did in his above post.
Even the parents have questions, and they were present in the courtroom.

A sticking point for me is that this was a small town and a lot of rural area, and a lot of folks who live there have lived there their entire lives.
My point is, wherever Hart's mother lived, it seems it wouldn't have made a difference. It would have been close enough for authorities or anyone else to use it against him.
I haven't heard any evidence that Hart was even in that area.

I don't know if even the evidence in this case is right too much he said she said.
What I have tried to do is put myself in the killer place ( I feel it was Hart ) by going out there on the land lots of times and seeing how a person could do it. From what I have seen from the last 5 years of going down there is that the evidence is wrong on a lot of stuff I don't think it's as crazy as a lot of people say because of the years that have went by.
1 It was planed.
2 It would have not been that hard to do.
3 He knew the land and was a great hunter ( the killer that is )
4 OSBI  fuc..ed it all up and I can't understand that...

[Taun]

MATTHEWAK47, on 02 November 2012 - 03:16 PM, said:

Here is a shot of cave 1 it is south east of camp Scoot but Hart's mothers house west of it.

Sorry, that pic is too small for my feeble old eyes ...

According to the first map you posted, cave #1 is South WEST of Camp Scot, not South East... So does that place Hart's mother's house Northwest of Cave #1 and West of Camp Scot?... From what I'd read before I got the mental image that his mother's place was basically just outside the north gate of the camp - but thinking back I never actually read anyone say "North"...

[regi]

MATTHEWAK47, on 02 November 2012 - 05:33 PM, said:

I don't know if even the evidence in this case is right too much he said she said.
What I have tried to do is put myself in the killer place ( I feel it was Hart ) by going out there on the land lots of times and seeing how a person could do it. From what I have seen from the last 5 years of going down there is that the evidence is wrong on a lot of stuff
1 It was planed.
2 It would have not been that hard to do.
3 He knew the land and was a great hunter ( the killer that is )
4 OSBI  fuc..ed it all up and I can't understand that...

I think it's fortunate that you've had opportunities to visit the area...I know it's still rural around that vicinity, but I see on google maps new housing and businesses here and there...

I don't think the perp had to be a hunter because I don't believe the perp actually lived in a cave.
I really can't see the perp- especially Hart on the run for four years- hanging around the vicinity after the murders, breaking back into Shroff's place and burglarizing the store. (I wonder how well those individual incidents were investigated. What, if any, evidence came from that?)

When you found the cave, did you also find the cellar? It was said to be near the cave and near where the photos were found.
It was said to be the cellar of Hart's childhood home.

[Taun]

Princess Serenity, on 01 November 2012 - 04:50 PM, said:

This story is in one of my new Weird U.S. State books (I forgot which one) but apparently the camp has been abandoned. I think it was one of the counselors who did it. IDK.

I apologize for not noticing this earlier Princess...  Just sort of missed it...

I don't think a counselor did it - though of course it's possible... The counselors that I've been able to read any thing on at all have been very young women - 18-23 years old or in that neighborhood... They slept several (2?) to a tent as much as I can tell and were seldom out of each others view that night (they were spooked by the storm and the night noises as much as the kids were)...

Plus, none of them were ever involved in anything remotely like these crimes again... and this sort of evil criminal is seldom satisfied with doing it just once.... This is not a major factor in my belief that they were not involved but it is a point against it in my mind...

[regi]

At this point, what's standing out to me is the knowledge the perp(s) seemed to have of that camp. (It seemed evident early on, but personally, I never realized before how evident it seems to be.)
If all events of that night were related (including the purse thefts), the perp traveled through the Kiowa, Quapaw, and Choctaw units, entered the counselors tents of all three, and possibly, ONLY the counselors tents of two.
That's interesting because I'm wondering how (or if) the counselors tents were differentiated from other tents in the three different units.

I'd wondered about Arapaho- just because it appeared on the map to be of closer proximity than Choctaw and (to me) seemed as secluded Kiowa, yet it was "by-passed", but I guess it's possible that the perp(s) could have scoped out Arapaho or even other tents in other units, and found nothing to take....

[Taun]

I think that Arapaho was by-passed because it looks to me like they came in near the gate just south of Kiowa.. and probably did not get as far north as Arapaho...

Edited by Taun, 04 November 2012 - 11:33 PM.

[regi]

Taun, on 04 November 2012 - 11:32 PM, said:

I think that Arapaho was by-passed because it looks to me like they came in near the gate just south of Kiowa.. and probably did not get as far north as Arapaho...

I'm curious as to why there was a gate which lead to adjoining property. So, apparently, there was vehicle access to that location. I don't know why that would be, but it's interesting.
And that's pretty danged interesting that the bodies were carried toward that gate location.
You know, there's been speculation as to why the perp carried three bodies all that distance...that it was possibly for a quick discovery, but that's making less and less sense. This appears far more that the perp was headed for that gate.
...maybe the perp wasn't trying to clean the tent floor for prints as much as trying to DELAY the discovery...and hide the bodies so what was done to the bodies wouldn't be known.

[Taun]

Maybe Matt can answer this one... But that gate was probably for maintenance reasons during the off season... Perhaps whoever had the adjoining land had some kind of arrangement where they brush hogged the land, etc...

You're comment about delaying discovery does now make a lot of sense.. also why the bodies were taken to that spot... Perhaps the perps wanted to remove the bodies totally, but ran late and Wilhite's approach sent them off with out the bodies....  Just guessing but then that's all we can really do on this case...

[Tarnibritan]

What a sick world we live in I hate it when threats arent taken seriously. I am even shocked that the girls were alone in a tent at such a  young age-I thought they would be in a group with at least one adult supervisor. I know it may be in the middle of nowhere and quite a few years ago-when perhaps these kinds of crimes werent considered commonplace, but it just seems they neglected to watch the children properly or listen to them when they reported a strange man around. Im glad they caught the killer-at least i hope they got the man responsible!! So sad

[MATTHEWAK47]

Taun, on 05 November 2012 - 03:06 PM, said:

Maybe Matt can answer this one... But that gate was probably for maintenance reasons during the off season... Perhaps whoever had the adjoining land had some kind of arrangement where they brush hogged the land, etc...

You're comment about delaying discovery does now make a lot of sense.. also why the bodies were taken to that spot... Perhaps the perps wanted to remove the bodies totally, but ran late and Wilhite's approach sent them off with out the bodies....  Just guessing but then that's all we can really do on this case...

That gate to me looks like it sould not be there and I don't know why it is because there is not a road to it from outside of the camp and it leads out on open land.
The killer (HART) walked into the camp so EZ and could look around from there and after the killings go right back out it...
Now on why take the bodies it's sick but I feel the killer would have liked to take the bodies to fool aroud with them in a more safe place after doing what he did. But something stoped him that I don't know...

[regi]

Taun, on 05 November 2012 - 03:06 PM, said:

that gate was probably for maintenance reasons during the off season... Perhaps whoever had the adjoining land had some kind of arrangement where they brush hogged the land, etc...

That sounds plausible.
A poster on the yuku site said she was told that it was the original entrance to the camp which also sounds plausible because the other gate is referred to as the "main" gate.
There was a road referred to as Cavalier Road, and from what I've read, it sounds like it was essentially between the Shroff's and Cavalier properties, but I'm not sure, and I don't know if it would be the same road one would take to have accessed that gate.
The thing about it is whether the gate was actually accessible to the perp at the time.

Interestingly, on the most detailed map I've seen, the gate isn't shown!, but there shows to have been a parking area behind the staff house which seems it would have been in the same direction.
http://www.girlscout...es/Project1.jpg

Edited by regi, 06 November 2012 - 12:39 PM.

[Taun]

Tarnibritan, on 05 November 2012 - 03:29 PM, said:

What a sick world we live in I hate it when threats arent taken seriously. I am even shocked that the girls were alone in a tent at such a  young age-I thought they would be in a group with at least one adult supervisor. I know it may be in the middle of nowhere and quite a few years ago-when perhaps these kinds of crimes werent considered commonplace, but it just seems they neglected to watch the children properly or listen to them when they reported a strange man around. Im glad they caught the killer-at least i hope they got the man responsible!! So sad

I can't disagree with you on those feelings....  As to why the girls were in tents without counselors... there were over 100 girls there and only a handful of adults - which is pretty typical of summer camps in this country - or use to be anyway... It use to be rather difficult to find adults who would volunteer their time...  Also part of the fun of being at summer camp is (was) having a 'room' to your selves without adults so you could stay up and talk all night if you wanted to... - or even get out and sneak around for a bit of harmlessly being naughty by doing something your not supposed to... Plus the benefit of giving one of the kids in the tent added responsibilities by being "in charge" - Don't know if that was how Camp Scott did things - but that was how things were done on many of the Boy Scout camping trips I took in the 60's...


Anyway... Welcome to the thread!

[regi]

Re: Arapaho, another poster on the yuku site said she'd camped at Camp Scott mid '60's to '70.
She said she remembered the Quapaw unit the most, and that the shortcut to Arapaho was often a muddy mess.
That could have been why Arapaho might have been avoided...

She also said (during the times she was there) that Osage, Chickasaw, and Creek were winterized cabins and weren't used for summer camping.
That causes me to realize that not all the units were occupied.