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The Girl Scout Camp Murders

girl scout murder oklahoma

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#181    regi

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 09:02 PM

Re: apparent lack of blood on those two sleeping bags...that's another interesting aspect of the crime scene.
I've read that blood coagulates about 30-60 minutes after death, so maybe the girls weren't in their sleeping bags when they were killed.
We know there was blood splatter on the tent walls/ceiling (I'm not sure precisely where and it's of course important to know) but there was apparently enough blood on the floor to wipe up...

I think the perp "did what he did" to the victims while he was in that tent.
It was considered the most isolated tent, so why would a perp take a victim out and away from what had been the most secluded location?
I think the OSBI misinterpreted this part of the scene.
It's looks to me like the perp was in a hurry...that after he killed Milner, he took only enough time to wipe the floor.
I think he planned to use the bag later, or he wouldn't have taken it.


#182    regi

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 09:12 PM

View PostTaun, on 08 November 2012 - 08:30 PM, said:

Regi...  Just looking at Google Earth of the site... it looks like a series of low ridges running (roughly) NE to SW basically following the course of the nearby creek... Without walking the site or looking at a good contour map of the area I would guess that it is not horribly rough ground, but not flat and smooth either...

Actually, it looks more like a gradual upslope from West to East, then a sharper drop to the creek just east of the buildings in the southern part of the camp and the northern part not as sharp a drop...

Thanks, Taun. I finally got that darned post up when I saw this post of yours. (I had to turn my attention elsewhere for a while and it took me almost 45 minutes to complete my last post!...that happens a lot...)
I'm not sure where I'm going with that "terrain" info, but- as you know- it helps a lot to visualize.

I have more issues/points that I'll continue with later. :yes:


#183    QuiteContrary

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 04:55 AM

View Postregi, on 08 November 2012 - 09:02 PM, said:

Re: apparent lack of blood on those two sleeping bags...that's another interesting aspect of the crime scene.
I've read that blood coagulates about 30-60 minutes after death, so maybe the girls weren't in their sleeping bags when they were killed.
We know there was blood splatter on the tent walls/ceiling (I'm not sure precisely where and it's of course important to know) but there was apparently enough blood on the floor to wipe up...

That sounds to me like it would put a lot of blood on the killer, so how did he not get any all over the bags? He must have taken a lot of care and time for this, is all I can think. Is that Hart?

Keep your eyes wide open and don't run!

P.S. Just to be clear, because sometimes I am not. I do not believe...
in the existence of a large previously unknown undiscovered hairy biped roaming North America.
But I like to hear the accounts, read the books, watch the shows, discuss and argue about the phenomenon.

#184    Taun

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 12:25 PM

I was going to make a detailed post about how using a blunt object - like a crowbar - the blood would tend to splatter away from the killer due to arm swing motion and angle and the probable position of the victims (much lower than the murderer)...

But since I am a graphicially minded person I kept seeing (in detail) how it must have happened and it made me very angry at whoever did this...

Probably not as much blood on the murderer as you might think...


#185    regi

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 12:47 PM

View PostQuiteContrary, on 09 November 2012 - 04:55 AM, said:

Is that Hart?

In an article dated 6-10-02 and titled Hart Jurors Say Things "didn't add up", it's reported that the jurors were "criticized and threatened for their decision"...and that "the lives of these twelve men and women were never the same."
A juror had this to say:
'We didn't have any choice but to acquit him,' "said Vela Ramsey in a recent interview with The Paper. 'The judge gave us twelve different things we had to connect before finding him guilty. Given the testimony, we couldn't even find two of those things.'
Ramsey, a housewife who has lived in Pryor for more than 56 years, said 'Things didn't add up' in the case against Hart.'"

Personally, based on what I've learned about this case and what I've learned about Hart, I strongly doubt Hart was this perp.


#186    regi

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 01:58 PM

In that documentary, it was stated that the press questioned the investigation.
Wilhites pretrial testimony offers a good idea why.
She said counselors were allowed back to their tents to collect their belongings, and while she was doing just that, there was a towel with a blood smear still present in their tent. The towel belonged to Emery, but Emery told Wilhite that she couldn't take the towel because it was evidence! Now, why that towel wasn't already collected is beyond me. What were the investigators doing the whole previous day if not collecting evidence?!

The doc bothers me for many reasons, but a biggy for me is that evidence is grossly misrepresented.
In part 2 @ 11:26, it's stated that "several pairs of prescription glasses" were taken.
From what I can ascertain- and correct me if I'm wrong-  only two pair of glasses were taken and one of those were sunglasses.
Wilhite had two pair of glasses- presumably both on her crate next to her bed and only one pair- which were in a glass case- were taken. (When she awoke that morning, she said the first thing she did was to put on her glasses...
In the doc, we're shown two photos of two different pair of glasses; one pair with plastic frames, and one with wire.
As we view one of those, we're told they were found in the cave, but earlier we were shown the same photo and it's inferred that those were discarded on the camp grounds.

They told us that one child heard another child cry out, but they fail to mention the testimony of a counselor that a crying, wandering child had been retrieved by counselors ...that it was believed the child had been sleepwalking.

Part 4 @ 10:16, the doc tells us that Hart's vasectomy was unsuccessful...that there was sperm present and that it was "unusual". I believe a lab chemist had referred to the same specimen as "decomposed."
Well, that's two very different things. Granted, I'm a layman, but I know there's a difference in something which presents a morphological anomaly and something that's simply degraded.
The whole issue is confusing about whether there semen collected at all from the crime scene/bodies.
I don't know how the specimen identified as Hart's was collected, but there appears to be a chain of custody issue which seems to be a recurring theme in this case with other evidence the state presented.

At 12:19, we're told that "several" more items were found on the second search of the cabin where Hart was apprehended, but we're told of only two things and I don't know what other items they could be referring to. If it's further evidence connecting Hart to the crime, then I don't know why we're not told what those were.

The photos are very, very interesting. Weaver stated that those photos were NEVER in his jail- the jail Hart had escaped from two times previous after he was transferred there from the prison where the photos had apparently been developed by Hart.
There no explanation of how Hart could have had possession of those photos....
I read in one article (sorry, I didn't note which it was) that authorities went to Hart's mother's home and retrieved a photo of Hart's ex-wife (who'd divorced Hart when he was sent to prison) and they noted how similar Hart's ex had looked to one of the women in the photos. That's how they explain why the heck Hart would even keep those photos.
Well, I'm not sure Hart was too fond of his ex-wife, but even if he was, he could have had an actual photo of her if he'd wanted one- easily obtained from his mother!, so I think that explanation is stretching it to the max. Actually, it's silly.
What they should have done was tell us how Hart could have had possession of the photos because the only link is that he developed them.



I'm wondering if the road shown in the doc. in part 3 @ 14:35 is Cavalier Road.

Edited by regi, 09 November 2012 - 02:07 PM.


#187    QuiteContrary

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 03:28 PM

View PostTaun, on 09 November 2012 - 12:25 PM, said:

I was going to make a detailed post about how using a blunt object - like a crowbar - the blood would tend to splatter away from the killer due to arm swing motion and angle and the probable position of the victims (much lower than the murderer)...

But since I am a graphicially minded person I kept seeing (in detail) how it must have happened and it made me very angry at whoever did this...

Probably not as much blood on the murderer as you might think...

Yes, I was going by the the descriptions of "wiping up blood" etc, as well as moving around the girls as he  taped them up. Hard to know without more photos and descriptions. The crime keeps getting longer and noisier if he removed them from their bags and taped then killed them, etc.
But you are right. I really have no idea. I am ALWAYS astonished these killers get away with all they do, where they do.

Has there ever been a search for similar crimes anywhere in the United States or Canada either before or after this one at the GS camp?

I know a GS (Marcia Trimble) was killed in Tennessee in 1975 and her murderer not brought to trial until 1980 (first guy charged of her crime was released)

Edited by QuiteContrary, 09 November 2012 - 03:33 PM.

Keep your eyes wide open and don't run!

P.S. Just to be clear, because sometimes I am not. I do not believe...
in the existence of a large previously unknown undiscovered hairy biped roaming North America.
But I like to hear the accounts, read the books, watch the shows, discuss and argue about the phenomenon.

#188    regi

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 01:06 PM

Before this case could be reliably profiled, the facts must be accurate and I don't see that they are.
Of course, the profiler would have to have access to the police file and autopsy reports.
The statement referring to Muse and Farmer doesn't appear to be accurate.
From what I can ascertain from reports of excerpts from the pretrial testimony correlated with how the OSBI agents describe what they witnessed, Muse was restrained- hands behind her back, but Farmer was not restrained.
Info from the yuku site says an excerpt of testimony from the ME re: Lori Farmer was:
"No tape, rope, or any other ligature was found on her body."
Also, the ME "testified on June 11th that no sperm or semen was found on any of the victims."

I need to correct an earlier post of mine where I said that the "decomposed" specimen was apparently the same one referred to as "unusual".
"On June 30th Janice Davis testified that she found decomposed sperm on a vaginal smear taken from Lori Farmer."
(The doc identified the unusual specimen as Hart's, but they don't tell us how it was collected.)
Anyway, assuming Davis said "decomposed"- that that wasn't somehow a reporter error- it would have to be explained to me how a specimen collected at autopsy hours after the recovery of a body- could possibly be decomposed if it were properly collected and processed.
Still, the most blatant discrepancy remains, and that's that the testimony of the fertility expert and Davis contradict testimony of the ME, and these are facts critical in determining what actually happened.


#189    Taun

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 02:12 PM

View PostQuiteContrary, on 09 November 2012 - 03:28 PM, said:

Yes, I was going by the the descriptions of "wiping up blood" etc, as well as moving around the girls as he  taped them up. Hard to know without more photos and descriptions. The crime keeps getting longer and noisier if he removed them from their bags and taped then killed them, etc.
But you are right. I really have no idea. I am ALWAYS astonished these killers get away with all they do, where they do.

Has there ever been a search for similar crimes anywhere in the United States or Canada either before or after this one at the GS camp?

I know a GS (Marcia Trimble) was killed in Tennessee in 1975 and her murderer not brought to trial until 1980 (first guy charged of her crime was released)

Yes, the attack on the girls had to have been rapid, sudden and relatively silent - for all three to be subdued without alerting other tents... I'm not saying they had to all be killed swiftly - though apparently they were - but they had to be silenced quickly...

I honestly do not know if a comparative search for similar MO in other murders has been performed - I'm sure that SOMEONE has... but I don't know if the authorities have...  This case was the first high publicity murder of it's type (i.e. 'camp murder') in the US (AFAIK)... In fact it has been suggsted that this case was one of the inspirations for the first "Friday the 13th" movie - which came out 3 years later, though the director/writer have both denighed this...

Edited by Taun, 14 November 2012 - 02:14 PM.


#190    regi

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 05:30 PM

Just something I came across that I found interesting, considering I've had this case on my mind for the past two months.
Night before last, I was channel surfing and hit on a program called Scare Tactics. I'd seen it before, but this was "The Best Of..." and I continued watching.
Well, the setup was in none other than Locust Grove...and the tactic centered around a shape-changer...!


#191    MATTHEWAK47

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 05:55 PM

View Postregi, on 14 November 2012 - 05:30 PM, said:

Just something I came across that I found interesting, considering I've had this case on my mind for the past two months.
Night before last, I was channel surfing and hit on a program called Scare Tactics. I'd seen it before, but this was "The Best Of..." and I continued watching.
Well, the setup was in none other than Locust Grove...and the tactic centered around a shape-changer...!

Get out of town !!!!!!!!   That's crazy!!!!!!!!!


#192    Alienated Being

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 05:59 PM

Urgh... this makes me sick and depressed. :(


#193    Taun

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 06:32 PM

View PostAlienated Being, on 14 November 2012 - 05:59 PM, said:

Urgh... this makes me sick and depressed. :(

That's one of the problems I have with this crime... I am totally incapable of putting myself in the mind of the evil so-and-so(s) that did this...  I just can not see a human being doing this to innocent children...  It is the one main point that keeps me from fully embracing the multiple killers theory (which is sound in so many ways)...  I just can't grasp how two (or more) people would all be so similarly sick and evil to get together and plan then execute this...  As I stated in an earlier post - how do you even broach the idea to another person? How do you know that they are as sick and as evil as you?...


#194    araxia

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 10:30 PM

Often I wonder about KIDS don't they have Guardian ANGELS to protect them from such monsters? Why don't GOD prevent such things instead of making it happen?


#195    Alienated Being

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 10:37 PM

View Postaraxia, on 14 November 2012 - 10:30 PM, said:

Often I wonder about KIDS don't they have Guardian ANGELS to protect them from such monsters? Why don't GOD prevent such things instead of making it happen?
Because god does not exist.





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