Jump to content




Welcome to Unexplained Mysteries! Please sign in or create an account to start posting and to access a host of extra features.


* * * * * 5 votes

The Girl Scout Camp Murders

girl scout murder oklahoma

  • Please log in to reply
740 replies to this topic

#91    MstrMsn

MstrMsn

    Psychic Spy

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,023 posts
  • Joined:09 Oct 2010
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Boston

  • "If you don't like the answer, you shouldn't have asked the question!"

Posted 04 October 2012 - 06:05 AM

View PostTaun, on 03 October 2012 - 11:34 AM, said:

I am a bit further into the book I am trying to read and it was mentioned that the photo's in question were taken at a wedding party.. and that two of the women in them strongly resembled Hart's ex-wife - hence why he kept them...  But yes I now am of the belief that Hart was involved but not alone...  And yes, the Sheriff had a lot to answer for...

I have read the chapter that has the closing arguments in them and they were rather disappointing... The author broke them up paragraph by paragraph and inserted his own commentary - which really detracted from it for me... And although certain pieces of evidence were mentioned in the arguments, there were very little details - and the book mentions very little details on its own...

It is very clear that the defense was much better prepared and had a much more effective strategy than the prosecutors...

Hart may have been involved, he might not have been. All of the evidence (to me) seems too circumstantial.

With that, of course the prosecutors weren't well prepared. They didn't have anything that was concrete. Look at the Casey Anthony trial. The prosecutors went to trial with very little. In all cases involving children as victims, there is always a public outcry for the DA/State to bring the guilty to trial, even if their evidence is crappy - they must think they'll be able to get hard evidence during the trial (which more often than not will either be excluded, if any is found, or none will be found).

We are born with 2 fears: Falling, and loud noises, all others are LEARNED.
You say fear is all in the mind. I say you are right; for it is our imagination that makes things seem scary.
If you want to learn how to not be afraid, ask.

#92    regi

regi

    Poltergeist

  • Member
  • 2,390 posts
  • Joined:28 May 2012
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Texas

Posted 04 October 2012 - 01:02 PM

View Postsusieice, on 04 October 2012 - 03:56 AM, said:

That donut box bothers me. Either someone knew that the murders would happen and the exact number of girls involved, it was written by the killer, or someone has uncanny psychic abilities.
One more thing. In one of the links I posted, it's a girl who said she was supposed to be in the Kiowa camp that night but went to Seminole instead due to a mix-up in her age. She was supposed to transfer the next morning, which would be the morning the killings were discovered. That left 3 in the tent that night instead of 4. Another odd coincidence. This and the donut box really makes me wonder if someone working at the camp didn't have a lot more to do with what happened than we're thinking.
The whole crime seems to be centered more around the young black girl, Doris Milner. And let's not forget her father was a cop. She was the one that really sticks out, both in the manner of the commission of the crime and in the way the bodies were displayed, so to speak, to be found.

I think what what bothers me most about the donut box incident is that I don't like loose ends, and until I know more about it, I don't even know if the incident is true. (The reason I even suggest that is because I've seen perjury committed because someone got to a point where they couldn't admit that they'd lied about something to begin with.)
I really don't know what to make of it.
At this point, to me, it appears to have been a prank, and written by whoever had opportunity to do so, and yes, is a very sinister coincidence.
I don't know what was going on at the camp when the incident occurred but 3 counselors per tent was protocol, except for waterfront units which might have had four. (Elders' testimony)
So, for that reason, it sounds like the note was referring to counselors when it said "girls".
The little girl who was to transfer to the Kiowa unit was in the Cherokee unit, not Seminole. (Elders' testimony, pg. 30)

susieice, those are interesting observations re: Doris Milner. Her circumstances were different in several ways, and those circumstances should be examined closely, more-so for that reason.


#93    regi

regi

    Poltergeist

  • Member
  • 2,390 posts
  • Joined:28 May 2012
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Texas

Posted 04 October 2012 - 01:13 PM

View PostTaun, on 03 October 2012 - 09:50 PM, said:

The donuts being gone was considered a serious crime .... by the cops...

Is that from the book?


#94    Taun

Taun

    A dashing moose about town...

  • Member
  • 5,670 posts
  • Joined:19 May 2010
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Tornado Alley (Oklahoma)

Posted 04 October 2012 - 01:20 PM

I had always thought that Doris Milner was treated differently for a couple possible reasons...

- She was older than the others (Thankfully I can't think like a paedo so this might not be an issue)...
- Perhaps she was sleeping further from the tent opening than the others and thus they were 'dealt with' first - quickly while they took their time with her...
- or the other two woke up and 'had to be dealt with' and she didn't...

I never considered her race - it just didn't really dawn on me that it might have been an issue - but it could well have been - although even with a flash light (which had a plastic "dimmer filter" over it) - it would have been dark in the tent... Would her race have been readily apparent?... In the photo's she doesn't look that much darker than the others - at least to me...


#95    Taun

Taun

    A dashing moose about town...

  • Member
  • 5,670 posts
  • Joined:19 May 2010
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Tornado Alley (Oklahoma)

Posted 04 October 2012 - 01:21 PM

View Postregi, on 04 October 2012 - 01:13 PM, said:

Is that from the book?

No just my silly sense of what passes for humor...


#96    regi

regi

    Poltergeist

  • Member
  • 2,390 posts
  • Joined:28 May 2012
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Texas

Posted 04 October 2012 - 01:37 PM

View PostTaun, on 04 October 2012 - 01:21 PM, said:

No just my silly sense of what passes for humor...

Oh, for crying out loud. Go to your room.


#97    regi

regi

    Poltergeist

  • Member
  • 2,390 posts
  • Joined:28 May 2012
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Texas

Posted 04 October 2012 - 01:58 PM

View PostTaun, on 04 October 2012 - 01:20 PM, said:

I had always thought that Doris Milner was treated differently for a couple possible reasons...

- She was older than the others (Thankfully I can't think like a paedo so this might not be an issue)...
- Perhaps she was sleeping further from the tent opening than the others and thus they were 'dealt with' first - quickly while they took their time with her...
- or the other two woke up and 'had to be dealt with' and she didn't...

I never considered her race - it just didn't really dawn on me that it might have been an issue - but it could well have been - although even with a flash light (which had a plastic "dimmer filter" over it) - it would have been dark in the tent... Would her race have been readily apparent?... In the photo's she doesn't look that much darker than the others - at least to me...

Yeah, I don't know if that she was the oldest- or maybe the largest- of the three could have been a factor. Other than that, and if the perp didn't know her before, then I don't think there would have been any discrimination for any reason.
The thing is, I guess authorities believe that she was killed at the discovery site, but I can't imagine that the perp also brought out the towel that was said to have been used around her neck. That's something that I think would have had to have already been close-by.


#98    Taun

Taun

    A dashing moose about town...

  • Member
  • 5,670 posts
  • Joined:19 May 2010
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Tornado Alley (Oklahoma)

Posted 04 October 2012 - 03:57 PM

View Postregi, on 04 October 2012 - 01:58 PM, said:

Yeah, I don't know if that she was the oldest- or maybe the largest- of the three could have been a factor. Other than that, and if the perp didn't know her before, then I don't think there would have been any discrimination for any reason.
The thing is, I guess authorities believe that she was killed at the discovery site, but I can't imagine that the perp also brought out the towel that was said to have been used around her neck. That's something that I think would have had to have already been close-by.

Good point about the towel...  Lord this case is so frustrating!


#99    regi

regi

    Poltergeist

  • Member
  • 2,390 posts
  • Joined:28 May 2012
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Texas

Posted 04 October 2012 - 04:26 PM

Thanks, Taun. You may come out of your room, now. :yes:

So, do you think that Milner was killed in the tent? (Maybe you've said that before.) I think the privacy issue alone is a strong indication that that's what must have occurred.
Now why Milner wasn't carried out in a sleeping bag, I don't know, but the bag was carried out...

I think those suggestions you made are all very good, and I think that one...that the other two were dealt with first is probably what occurred. Blunt force trauma...that's a sudden injury, where strangulation takes time.

Yes, it's frustrating! You mentioned wanting to know time of death...that's another reason I'd like to hear from the ME.
We have these murders, and the bodies are transported, and we have missing items from around the camp, and it's important to try to determine when everything occurred.
I'm also interested in what he reports of the external exams, and also what specimens he said were collected.
If that book tells anything of his testimony, please post it!

Edited by regi, 04 October 2012 - 04:29 PM.


#100    Taun

Taun

    A dashing moose about town...

  • Member
  • 5,670 posts
  • Joined:19 May 2010
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Tornado Alley (Oklahoma)

Posted 04 October 2012 - 05:45 PM

The book mentions that no semen was discovered on the girls but that Hart's did not match the semen specimens taken from the bodies...   :huh:

The whole book is like that - contradictory statements often within the same sentence....  I think what he may have meant was that no semen was found IN the girls, but on them...


#101    Taun

Taun

    A dashing moose about town...

  • Member
  • 5,670 posts
  • Joined:19 May 2010
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Tornado Alley (Oklahoma)

Posted 04 October 2012 - 05:59 PM

While searching to find a Time of Death(s) I came across this website which has actually managed to lay everything out in a way that the data almost makes sense (much better than others have I must say...)  Still no official TOD...

I bolded a part I particularly agreed with...

misspellings are not mine - this time...






http://www.athenares...coutmurders.htm

Girl Scout Murders




The story of the Girl Scout Murders sounds like the plot of a bad B movie.  Three young girls are rapped and murdered while away at summer camp, the counselors slept through the whole assault.  The police are confused about how and why the crime occurred in the first place.  The prime suspect is known to police because of his previous history of sexual violence.
Instead of being a horror movie, the Girl Scout Murders was an actual crime that occurred in Oklahoma in 1977.  The victims were all young girls; the prime suspect may or may not have actually committed the crime because he was eventually acquitted of any wrong doing in this case, the case remains officially unsolved.
Athena Reserch Group focuses primarily on “ritualistic” or “occult” type crimes.  While there does not appear to be any ritual type elements contained in this case, the background of the case and elements involved give it a weird factor of 10.
Orion Research would like to conduct a thorough investigation of this crime. If anyone has any information about this crime, please contact.  Email ej@athenaresearch.org

Case Outline Date:
June 12, 1977
Location: Girl Scout Camp Scott. Kiown Section located at the western most end of the 410-acre property.
This location may have been chosen because of its remoteness.
The closest tent to the crime scene was 75 feet away; the nearest consoler tent was 100 yards away.

The Victims:
Michele Heather Guse Age 9
Doris Denise Milner Age 10
Lori Lee Farmer Age 8

Events Leading Up to the Crime
a man's effigy was found hanging from a tree by its neck; personal items were disappearing from tents.
The most interesting event was the discovery of a note in April; it read "we are on a mission to kill 3 girls in tent 1". The note was considered a prank and never given to police.

The crime
a storm had hit and area around 6pm causing heavy rain. Because of the weather the campers were sent back to their tents.
Approximately 1:30AM moaning was heard near Kiowa. Carla a camp consoler checked out the noise and described it as a low guttural moaning. It would stop whenever the beam of her flashlight came near.
Carla was standing at the intersection of the trail, 150 yards from tent 8 and a dirt road leading to the main camp.
Approximately 2AM the tent flap of #7 was opened. Three of the girls inside were sleeping. The fourth girl stated that she noticed a beam of light moving about the interior from outside, with the silhouette of a large figure behind it. The figure moved off toward tent # 8.
Moaning sounds were heard throughout the night. Not just by those in the Kiowa section but in four other units of the camp.
Approximately 3AM a girl in the Cherokee section across the woods heard a scream come from the direction of Kiowa about two city blocks away. A girl in Quapaw also heard a scream. The scream seemed to be momma. Momma.
The girl thought it may have been the voice of Lori Farmer
approximately 6AM Carla found sleeping bags under a tree near the intersection in a pile.

The Bodies
Doris Milner was found nude from the waist down; her PJ top was pulled up underneath her arms. Her hands had been tied behind her back with duct tape and she had been beaten about the face.
Around her neck a cord and an elastic bandage were visible. A round cylinder shaped object about four inches long made of terrycloth was attached to the cord. The elastic bandage had been used as a blindfold, the terrycloth object as a gag.
Michele Heather Guse and Lori Farmer were found inside their sleeping bags. Both bodies had been bound into a tight compact fetal like position.

Evidence
Guse and Farmer's sleeping bags contained bloody bed sheets that had been used by the killer to wipe down the blood found on the wood floor of the tent.
Also found a roll of black duct tape and a flashlight the murder had discarded.
Jack Shroff was the owner of a farm two miles west of Camp Scott; his house had been broken into some of the items taken were a sash cord, a roll of duct tape, three bottles of beer and three identical crowbars. The beer bottles were later found empty on the campgrounds.
Outside shroff's door a jungle boot style print was found. It matched other boot prints found near the crime scene.
An other print had been found on the blood soaked floor of tent 8
Boot Print Size 10
Shoe Print (possible tennis shoe) size 7

Cause of Death:
Guse and Farmer were killed inside the tent. Struck by a heavy blunt object in the back of their heads while they slept.
Milner may have been led out of the tent, raped then killed. When found her face had been beaten with such force that the object left behind an impression. She had died on the trial. Her cause of death was blunt force trauma not strangulation.
At autopsy it was revealed that two different types of knots had reportedly been used, head wounds on two of the victims indicated two different blunt instruments.

Analysis:
Physical evidence left behind at the crime scene and evidence recovered during autopsy indicates that two offenders were involved in the crime.
The nature of the crime scene, a mixed scene, all of the equipment necessary to commit the crime was brought along, yet no steps were taken to conceal the crime after it was committed also indicates that two offenders were involved.
This crime is one that would have been planned months, possibly years in advance. The killers were good friends, this isn't the kind of thing that you talk about or consider doing with someone you just met. Because of the remoteness of the crime scene, the offenders knew the area well; they were either avid hunters or lived or worked in the area.
The offenders would have left the area immediately after the crime.
One of both of the offender's would have a history of sexual assault, possibly involving children.
This may not have been the first murder for one of both of the offenders.
This level of violence indicates that, these offenders were not new to murder; they had been involved in some type of violent crime previous to this one.

The Suspect
Gene Leroy Hart was a Cherokee Indian and high school football hero from Locust Grove. In June of 1966 Hart kidnapped two women outside a Tulsa nightclub and left them to die. They were able to escape and notified police.
Hart was sentenced in October 1966 and paroled in March 1969, was arrested again after being caught burglarizing homes. Hart was able to escape custody in 1973.
He was tried for the camp Scott murders and found not guilty on March 30, 1979, however he was sent back to prison to sever out his 308-year sentence for his previous crimes.
Heart later died in prison.


#102    Taun

Taun

    A dashing moose about town...

  • Member
  • 5,670 posts
  • Joined:19 May 2010
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Tornado Alley (Oklahoma)

Posted 04 October 2012 - 06:10 PM

Another site:

http://claremoreprog...eyword=topstory

Has these bits of additional info:

"In 1990 (Gene) Haynes was elected to office as the District Attorney serving Rogers, Mayes, and Craig Counties.

“I was warned calls would come in,” said Haynes. “I was told I should get acquainted with the case.”

Haynes read boxes of information on the case prior to taking office in January 1991. There were Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation reports, a transcript from the preliminary hearing and photographs.

There were no trial transcripts because Gene Leroy Hart, the suspect tried for the crime, was acquitted.

Haynes said in the case of a conviction a transcript is made because there could be an appeal. In an acquittal, though notes are taken, no transcript exists."

So - no trial transcript....


#103    regi

regi

    Poltergeist

  • Member
  • 2,390 posts
  • Joined:28 May 2012
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Texas

Posted 04 October 2012 - 07:34 PM

View PostTaun, on 04 October 2012 - 05:45 PM, said:

The book mentions that no semen was discovered on the girls but that Hart's did not match the semen specimens taken from the bodies...   :huh:

The whole book is like that - contradictory statements often within the same sentence....  I think what he may have meant was that no semen was found IN the girls, but on them...

Oh, what the heck?! I see why you're frustrated..it's not so much to do with the case as it is with that book! (I hope you don't allow you're disappointment with the author to influence your opinions of the facts. Of course, what's most important are the sources of the info. which leads me to your next post. Again, I'd have to know where they got their info. for that analysis of the case.

From some of what I've read and from some of what was stated in the doc, it seems that the original ME who examined the bodies said he didn't find semen, but later, a fertility doctor said he identified sperm. Janice Davis testified she found "decomposed" sperm on a vaginal smear. Anneeeway...
This issue warrants a third opinion. The specimens are preserved on glass slides, and to my knowledge, those don't deteriorate.
I read one report that the girls were "sexually abused, but not raped". Now, that would tell me that, despite a sexual component to the crime, there was no semen and NO INJURIES ASSOCIATED with rape.
(I keep in mind that the ME who examined the bodies did so with the knowledge of the trauma to the body of a rape victim...and these victims were children, and the suspect was an adult.)


#104    regi

regi

    Poltergeist

  • Member
  • 2,390 posts
  • Joined:28 May 2012
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Texas

Posted 05 October 2012 - 01:16 PM

Re: that case analysis and what they refer to as the "weird factor", I'm not sure what they mean by that.
(It's a triple homicide which occurred at scout camp and while that's certainly out of the ordinary, we don't have to be told that. :whistle: )
From an investigative standpoint, since the camp was (naturally) out in the open- even if the gate was locked- anyone on foot could have had/gained access.
It was a remote, expansive area with lots of "cover", so I think it was an especially vulnerable location.
What stands out to me as "weird" is that the bodies were moved, and an odd assortment of items were missing from at least two different locations within the camp.
Another point is that these murders occurred on the first night of camp...the very first night- the most hectic of all camp nights which surely only added to the vulnerability of the camp.


#105    Taun

Taun

    A dashing moose about town...

  • Member
  • 5,670 posts
  • Joined:19 May 2010
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Tornado Alley (Oklahoma)

Posted 05 October 2012 - 01:27 PM

View Postregi, on 05 October 2012 - 01:16 PM, said:

Re: that case analysis and what they refer to as the "weird factor", I'm not sure what they mean by that.
(It's a triple homicide which occurred at scout camp and while that's certainly out of the ordinary, we don't have to be told that. :whistle: )
From an investigative standpoint, since the camp was (naturally) out in the open- even if the gate was locked- anyone on foot could have had/gained access.
It was a remote, expansive area with lots of "cover", so I think it was an especially vulnerable location.
What stands out to me as "weird" is that the bodies were moved, and an odd assortment of items were missing from at least two different locations within the camp.
Another point is that these murders occurred on the first night of camp...the very first night- the most hectic of all camp nights which surely only added to the vulnerability of the camp.

I think they were referring to the shamanistic aspects... The two medicine men, the supposed curses on the dogs and on Hart... The odd behaviour of the counselors, People thinking Hart was a Skinwalker/shapechanger, etc...





1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users