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Vedic mythology collobarate with science?


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#16    Harsh86_Patel

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 05:13 AM

View PostHarte, on 01 October 2012 - 05:34 PM, said:

None of your references even mention string theory.

Do you even know what it is?

Are you aware that it postulates 11 dimensions, and not ten?

The number ten is associated with the concept of Brahman, yes.  It's also associated with Dr. Pepper (10, 2 and 4.)

Is the Dr. Pepper logo referring to String theory?

Harte
The string theory originally postulated 10 dimensions and are contemplating an 11th to explain a few more anamolies.I am talking about drawing a basic parallel.I have some idea about the string theory and i can understand it in a working fashion.
I like Dr.Pepper.


#17    Harsh86_Patel

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 06:40 AM

View PostClobhair-cean, on 01 October 2012 - 01:24 PM, said:

It seems that you have forgotten my request to provide evidence for pre-2000 BCE Indo-Aryans.



People draw inspiration from a lot of things, how's that related to anything. Just because something is inspiring, it doesn't need to have a truth value



The control of fire is one of the most basic things known to humans, it's kinda hard to forget, since practically everyone knows how to do it. Also, DNA evidence has also pointed towards the Andamanese in general being members of a very ancient human lineage.




String Theory is in itself fairly dubious and is still up to much debate. Furthermore, like all theoretical physics, it is immensely complex. Cherry-picking vibrations and multiple dimensions is far from being proof that there's anything in the Vedas about this yet unproven 20th century idea.



If by God Particle, you mean the Higgs Boson, then you are wrong and yet again guilty of a gross oversimplification of science. The Higgs is just one of many basic particles. It's main role is that it indicates the presence of the Higgs Field, which seems to give mass to certain particles. Have the Vedas mentioned that?

Also, the God Particle is a misnomer. Leon Lederman, who coined the term wanted to call the particle the "Goddamn Particle", but it was changed due to the interference of his editor.



Yet another claim that is not consistent with actual science. It is practically the ancient and bogus idea of the Great Chain of Being, which is at direct odds at the modern understanding of Evolution as a nonlinear process where the humans are definitely not the end result.



Yoga, like all exercise has health benefits. And controlled breathing having effects on the vascular system is also well-known, but much of the medical effects claimed by its practitioners, like that you can use it to cure cancer, is absurd.

Also, if the people who wrote the Vedas were so medically literate, how come the germ theory of disease completely eluded them?



This is an extremely broad topic that is not in any ways unique to the Vedas



That's absolute hokum. There is absolutely no mechanised flight in the Vedas, and I challenge you to prove me wrong with a direct quote from the text.
1)People usually draw inspiration usually from something they consider to be true and inspiring either emotionally or mentally.Vedas were designed or created to inspire intelligence and knowledge.

2)Regarding fire,if by your statement it is basic knowledge to know how to make a fire then probably the culture you mentioned did know it and refrained from using it.If it is so commonplace even caused by ocassional thunderstorms etc then why would these people be unaware of it.And what does it prove anyway?You can take the entire humanbity to be xyz years old and hence be the oldest surviving culture.

3)The entire science of Astrophysics is perpetually in a state of debate,i am just trying to draw a parallel between modern scientific theories and concepts in the Vedas.If a few fundamental concepts of a modern theory have a close parrallel of certain concepts in the Vedas then mentioning them is not cherrypicking.For Eg -Very few ancient religions talk of countless multiple universes which is an abstract concept and is a sign of advance intellect by itself.

4)The Higgs boson is also called the 'God particle' since it is to be found in all matter and the cause of imparting mass to matter and all other sub atomic particles.The Veda mentions that Nirguna Brhman or a eternal vibration without specific qualities that can be equated to 'God' is manifest throughout the universe and that is what connects everything hence the reason for Hindu's being pantheistic(i.e-God is manifest in everything not to be confused with God made everything).I beleive the concept of God being manifest in everything underlines a unity it at some level in everything and has a parallel with the implications of recently discovered Higgs Boson.(It is a personal choice to use this new discovery to 'Damn God' or to Acknowledge God)

5)Let me tell you that modern postulates of Evolution are based on stupid fallacious assumptions without empirical experimentation to back them,they are a bunch of wild hypothesis.I am not trying to validate the Evolutionary science of today but just trying to point out a few parallels with the knowledge in the Vedas and in this case Puranas,the Dashavatars of Vishnu are not necessarily indicating a linear progression of Evolution but highlighting what sort of life forms came in what order which i think is still considered to be valid by modern evolutionist.

6)Importance of physical excercise and breathing techniques are relatively recent in western medicine as compared to the practice of Yoga and Pranayama which have a huge lead.Also causes and cures for Cancer are much debateable in western medicine as well so one should not be too quick in dismissing the beneficial effects that aid in curing cancer.Breathing techniques like Pranayam not only have physical benefits but also benefit the mental well being and body rythms which is a fact that was recognized fairly recently in western science and was well known by Ancient Indians.
The germ theory did not elude them but they never considered it to be a point of focus,they believed that each individual had a body type and the human body is able to resist most of the diseases by itself when conditioned and maintained optimally and hence they focussed on a healthy and disciplined lifestyle and immunity boosters combined to battle any diseases i.e they focussed more on 'prevention' then on 'cure'.(concepts of asepsis,hygeine,disciplined lifestyle are well described in Ayurveda).

7)'Karma' a detailed philosophy of cause and effect is first attested in the Vedas and subsequent hindu literature like 'Bhagvad Gita' .'Karma' being good or bad are independant of divine instructions since there are very few in the Vedas and hence can be called an abstract concept since even Gods were subject to laws of 'Karma' hence it was considered to be a universal concept independant of Godhood..The evolution of modern 'cause and effect' philosophy/science independant of divine instructions is again a relatively recent concept in western philosophy/science.

8)Regarding mechanised flight in the vedas(source wiki) :

The predecessors of the flying vimanas of the Sanskrit epics are the flying chariots employed by various gods in the Vedas: the Sun (see Sun chariot) and Indra and several other Vedic deities are transported by flying wheeled chariots pulled by animals, usually horses (but the Vedic god Pūsan's chariot is pulled by goats, as is that of Norse Thor).

The Rigveda does not mention Vimanas, but verses RV 1.164.47-48 have been taken as evidence for the idea of "mechanical birds":
47. kṛṣṇáṃ niyânaṃ hárayaḥ suparṇâ / apó vásānā dívam út patanti tá âvavṛtran sádanād ṛtásyâd / íd ghṛténa pṛthivî vy ùdyate 48. dvâdaśa pradháyaś cakrám ékaṃ / trîṇi nábhyāni ká u tác ciketa tásmin sākáṃ triśatâ ná śaṅkávo / 'rpitâḥ ṣaṣṭír ná calācalâsaḥ "Dark the descent: the birds are golden-coloured; up to the heaven they fly robed in the waters. Again descend they from the seat of Order, and all the earth is moistened with their fatness." "Twelve are the fellies, and the wheel is single; three are the naves. What man hath understood it? Though mechanical flight was descirbed more often and in better detail in other scriptures as i mentioned.
9) Regarding the age of Vedic culture and Vedas pre 2000 b.c..You can read the subsequent link which gives good info on the same and is also a published and peer reviewed article:

http://www.omilosmel....gr/pdf/rie.pdf  (title-a new date for the Rigveda)
http://www.omilosmel...ndology/IIR.pdf (Out of India theory and the fallacies of Ayan invasion/migration along with relevant attestations of the age of the Vedas)
http://www.omilosmel...Final Reply.pdf (The objections from invasionists/migration proponents refuted and addressed)

Incase you didn't go through the articles above:
1)Archeo astronomy suggests Vedas and other hindu literature to be much older then previously thought
2)Descriptions of a river Saraswati which started dwindling around 4000 b.c in the Rig Veda when it was still a river flowing in full force.
3)Cultural continuity from before the Indus Valley Civilisation to present day India is well attested by Archeologist hence the Vedas had to be older then the IVC.

These and many other reasons compel us to date the Rig Veda to be oway older then 2000 b.c.(The date you suggest is probably when the Vedas were put down in script,oral transmission or 'Smriti' was the favoured mode of propogation until very recently.)


#18    Harte

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 01:05 PM

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 03 October 2012 - 05:13 AM, said:

The string theory originally postulated 10 dimensions and are contemplating an 11th to explain a few more anamolies.I am talking about drawing a basic parallel.I have some idea about the string theory and i can understand it in a working fashion.
It's 10 physical dimensions and one time dimension, in one version.

There are others that include more than one time dimension.

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 03 October 2012 - 05:13 AM, said:

I like Dr.Pepper.
Me too, but the diet one sucks.

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#19    Clobhair-cean

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 02:33 PM

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 03 October 2012 - 06:40 AM, said:

1)People usually draw inspiration usually from something they consider to be true and inspiring either emotionally or mentally.Vedas were designed or created to inspire intelligence and knowledge.

People draw inspiration from Star Wars, porn, funny cat pictures, music and many many other things. Newton was inspired by an apple. Does that say anything about the amazing qualities of that apple? No.

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 03 October 2012 - 06:40 AM, said:

2)Regarding fire,if by your statement it is basic knowledge to know how to make a fire then probably the culture you mentioned did know it and refrained from using it.If it is so commonplace even caused by ocassional thunderstorms etc then why would these people be unaware of it.And what does it prove anyway?You can take the entire humanbity to be xyz years old and hence be the oldest surviving culture.

You were the one who jumped onto the fire thing. It is a fact that these people can't make fire, which is extremely rare among mankind. They are also genetically ancient, live in prehistoric conditions and haven't been contacted since time immemorial. If any, they are a great candidate for a culture that's older than the vast majority of others in the world.

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 03 October 2012 - 06:40 AM, said:

3)The entire science of Astrophysics is perpetually in a state of debate,i am just trying to draw a parallel between modern scientific theories and concepts in the Vedas.If a few fundamental concepts of a modern theory have a close parrallel of certain concepts in the Vedas then mentioning them is not cherrypicking.For Eg -Very few ancient religions talk of countless multiple universes which is an abstract concept and is a sign of advance intellect by itself..

String Theory is not Astrophysics. And yes, if you pick a very broad interpretation of two aspects of an immensely complex theory, than that is the definition of cherry picking.

A lot of ancient religions talk about multiple worlds. The Old Norse, for example, have nine of them. A huge number of religions have three parallel worlds.

Wait, advance intellect? You are avare that intelligence is not culturally or ethnically predetermined, no? Though with your previous statements full of supremacist rhetoric, I wouldn't be so sure...

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 03 October 2012 - 06:40 AM, said:

4)The Higgs boson is also called the 'God particle' since it is to be found in all matter and the cause of imparting mass to matter and all other sub atomic particles.The Veda mentions that Nirguna Brhman or a eternal vibration without specific qualities that can be equated to 'God' is manifest throughout the universe and that is what connects everything hence the reason for Hindu's being pantheistic(i.e-God is manifest in everything not to be confused with God made everything).I beleive the concept of God being manifest in everything underlines a unity it at some level in everything and has a parallel with the implications of recently discovered Higgs Boson.(It is a personal choice to use this new discovery to 'Damn God' or to Acknowledge God)

No. The Higgs boson is called the God Particle, because it couldn't be called the "Goddamn Particle". That's it. There's nothing more more Lederman wanted to give it the name because it has proven so hard and expensive to find and because it's a general pain in the **** for physicists trying to prove its existence. It is one of many particles that permeate the whole univers. If in your mind, God is the simplest explanation for how the electroweak symmetry gets broken, that's fine, just don't say that the Vedas talk about the Higgs boson or quantum field theory, because that's just not true. "Something is everywhere" is a vague claim that can be applied to just about anything. I could say that the world is made up of minute little quivering hamsters, even that would fit what the Vedas are saying.

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 03 October 2012 - 06:40 AM, said:

5)Let me tell you that modern postulates of Evolution are based on stupid fallacious assumptions without empirical experimentation to back them,they are a bunch of wild hypothesis.I am not trying to validate the Evolutionary science of today but just trying to point out a few parallels with the knowledge in the Vedas and in this case Puranas,the Dashavatars of Vishnu are not necessarily indicating a linear progression of Evolution but highlighting what sort of life forms came in what order which i think is still considered to be valid by modern evolutionist.

I'm not going to get into yet another pointless argument about how you have no idea what evolutionary theory is. But yet again, you are acting like a person who says that a grey car and a rhino are practically the same if both are out of focus.

But no, I can't let one thing slide: no sane modern evolutionary biologist says that there was any order in evolution.


View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 03 October 2012 - 06:40 AM, said:

6)Importance of physical excercise and breathing techniques are relatively recent in western medicine as compared to the practice of Yoga and Pranayama which have a huge lead.Also causes and cures for Cancer are much debateable in western medicine as well so one should not be too quick in dismissing the beneficial effects that aid in curing cancer.Breathing techniques like Pranayam not only have physical benefits but also benefit the mental well being and body rythms which is a fact that was recognized fairly recently in western science and was well known by Ancient Indians.

No, they aren't. People have always known that exercise leads to health. And, I can easily dismiss Eastern mysticism curing cancer, since no respectable clinical trials have shown that it is possible.


View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 03 October 2012 - 06:40 AM, said:

The germ theory did not elude them but they never considered it to be a point of focus,they believed that each individual had a body type and the human body is able to resist most of the diseases by itself when conditioned and maintained optimally and hence they focussed on a healthy and disciplined lifestyle and immunity boosters combined to battle any diseases i.e they focussed more on 'prevention' then on 'cure'.(concepts of asepsis,hygeine,disciplined lifestyle are well described in Ayurveda).

So, you don't need to know what causes a disease to cure it. That makes perfect sense! You don't need to know how diseases spread, how infection works, etc.

That's why the average life expectancy has been growing exponentially since the introduction of Western medicine. That's why in India, many people still don't give names to their children until they are one years old, because traditional medicine works so well. Do you have any idea about medicine. Immunity boosters? You can't boost the immune system, that's medicine 101. A boosted immune system is called an autoimmune disease, and that's a serious a health risk.

There's a reason why Ayurveda, alongside practically all of Traditional Eastern Medicine is considered as "alternative medicine". if it worked, it would be called "medicine" and Western doctors and companies would make a lot of money using it.


View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 03 October 2012 - 06:40 AM, said:

7)'Karma' a detailed philosophy of cause and effect is first attested in the Vedas and subsequent hindu literature like 'Bhagvad Gita' .'Karma' being good or bad are independant of divine instructions since there are very few in the Vedas and hence can be called an abstract concept since even Gods were subject to laws of 'Karma' hence it was considered to be a universal concept independant of Godhood..The evolution of modern 'cause and effect' philosophy/science independant of divine instructions is again a relatively recent concept in western philosophy/science.

So recent that even Aristotle, the founding father of Western science and philosophy wrote about it. Yeah...


View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 03 October 2012 - 06:40 AM, said:

8)Regarding mechanised flight in the vedas(source wiki) :

The predecessors of the flying vimanas of the Sanskrit epics are the flying chariots employed by various gods in the Vedas: the Sun (see Sun chariot) and Indra and several other Vedic deities are transported by flying wheeled chariots pulled by animals, usually horses (but the Vedic god Pūsan's chariot is pulled by goats, as is that of Norse Thor).
The Rigveda does not mention Vimanas, but verses RV 1.164.47-48 have been taken as evidence for the idea of "mechanical birds": 47. kṛṣṇáṃ niyânaṃ hárayaḥ suparṇâ / apó vásānā dívam út patanti tá âvavṛtran sádanād ṛtásyâd / íd ghṛténa pṛthivî vy ùdyate 48. dvâdaśa pradháyaś cakrám ékaṃ / trîṇi nábhyāni ká u tác ciketa tásmin sākáṃ triśatâ ná śaṅkávo / 'rpitâḥ ṣaṣṭír ná calācalâsaḥ "Dark the descent: the birds are golden-coloured; up to the heaven they fly robed in the waters. Again descend they from the seat of Order, and all the earth is moistened with their fatness." "Twelve are the fellies, and the wheel is single; three are the naves. What man hath understood it? Though mechanical flight was descirbed more often and in better detail in other scriptures as i mentioned.

And where's mechanical flight in that. Did I miss anything, the last time I flew from Qatar to Budapest, I did not see any horses or goats pulling my chariot (were they deployed sometime after I boarded the plane? Then what are those big engines for?). Nor did I travel in a golden bird with three naves and one wheel. You can't be serious in stating that this has anything to do with any real-life flying machine.

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 03 October 2012 - 06:40 AM, said:

9) Regarding the age of Vedic culture and Vedas pre 2000 b.c..You can read the subsequent link which gives good info on the same and is also a published and peer reviewed article:

http://www.omilosmel....gr/pdf/rie.pdf  (title-a new date for the Rigveda)
http://www.omilosmel...ndology/IIR.pdf (Out of India theory and the fallacies of Ayan invasion/migration along with relevant attestations of the age of the Vedas)
http://www.omilosmel...Final Reply.pdf (The objections from invasionists/migration proponents refuted and addressed)

Incase you didn't go through the articles above:
1)Archeo astronomy suggests Vedas and other hindu literature to be much older then previously thought
2)Descriptions of a river Saraswati which started dwindling around 4000 b.c in the Rig Veda when it was still a river flowing in full force.
3)Cultural continuity from before the Indus Valley Civilisation to present day India is well attested by Archeologist hence the Vedas had to be older then the IVC.

These and many other reasons compel us to date the Rig Veda to be oway older then 2000 b.c.(The date you suggest is probably when the Vedas were put down in script,oral transmission or 'Smriti' was the favoured mode of propogation until very recently.)

I am not sure about these papers. I studied and practiced quite a bit of academic writing, and these wouldn't be accepted at any university or publisher, simply for stylistic reasons. This guy has no idea how to write a paper, and that's a huge red flag. Then there's this "I'm the only voice of reason and all these other researchers are wrong", which is also a red flag. Then there is this thing about extraordinary claims requiring extraordinary evidence, and the theorised flow of a yet unidentified river is not quite extraordinary evidence.

But let's say that he's right. He puts the Vedas to maximum 7000 years old. That's still tens of thousands of years younger than Australian Aboriginal culture, so Indo-Aryans are stil not the oldest culture in the world.


#20    Harsh86_Patel

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 08:33 AM

View PostClobhair-cean, on 03 October 2012 - 02:33 PM, said:

People draw inspiration from Star Wars, porn, funny cat pictures, music and many many other things. Newton was inspired by an apple. Does that say anything about the amazing qualities of that apple? No.



You were the one who jumped onto the fire thing. It is a fact that these people can't make fire, which is extremely rare among mankind. They are also genetically ancient, live in prehistoric conditions and haven't been contacted since time immemorial. If any, they are a great candidate for a culture that's older than the vast majority of others in the world.



String Theory is not Astrophysics. And yes, if you pick a very broad interpretation of two aspects of an immensely complex theory, than that is the definition of cherry picking.

A lot of ancient religions talk about multiple worlds. The Old Norse, for example, have nine of them. A huge number of religions have three parallel worlds.

Wait, advance intellect? You are avare that intelligence is not culturally or ethnically predetermined, no? Though with your previous statements full of supremacist rhetoric, I wouldn't be so sure...



No. The Higgs boson is called the God Particle, because it couldn't be called the "Goddamn Particle". That's it. There's nothing more more Lederman wanted to give it the name because it has proven so hard and expensive to find and because it's a general pain in the **** for physicists trying to prove its existence. It is one of many particles that permeate the whole univers. If in your mind, God is the simplest explanation for how the electroweak symmetry gets broken, that's fine, just don't say that the Vedas talk about the Higgs boson or quantum field theory, because that's just not true. "Something is everywhere" is a vague claim that can be applied to just about anything. I could say that the world is made up of minute little quivering hamsters, even that would fit what the Vedas are saying.



I'm not going to get into yet another pointless argument about how you have no idea what evolutionary theory is. But yet again, you are acting like a person who says that a grey car and a rhino are practically the same if both are out of focus.

But no, I can't let one thing slide: no sane modern evolutionary biologist says that there was any order in evolution.




No, they aren't. People have always known that exercise leads to health. And, I can easily dismiss Eastern mysticism curing cancer, since no respectable clinical trials have shown that it is possible.




So, you don't need to know what causes a disease to cure it. That makes perfect sense! You don't need to know how diseases spread, how infection works, etc.

That's why the average life expectancy has been growing exponentially since the introduction of Western medicine. That's why in India, many people still don't give names to their children until they are one years old, because traditional medicine works so well. Do you have any idea about medicine. Immunity boosters? You can't boost the immune system, that's medicine 101. A boosted immune system is called an autoimmune disease, and that's a serious a health risk.

There's a reason why Ayurveda, alongside practically all of Traditional Eastern Medicine is considered as "alternative medicine". if it worked, it would be called "medicine" and Western doctors and companies would make a lot of money using it.




So recent that even Aristotle, the founding father of Western science and philosophy wrote about it. Yeah...




And where's mechanical flight in that. Did I miss anything, the last time I flew from Qatar to Budapest, I did not see any horses or goats pulling my chariot (were they deployed sometime after I boarded the plane? Then what are those big engines for?). Nor did I travel in a golden bird with three naves and one wheel. You can't be serious in stating that this has anything to do with any real-life flying machine.



I am not sure about these papers. I studied and practiced quite a bit of academic writing, and these wouldn't be accepted at any university or publisher, simply for stylistic reasons. This guy has no idea how to write a paper, and that's a huge red flag. Then there's this "I'm the only voice of reason and all these other researchers are wrong", which is also a red flag. Then there is this thing about extraordinary claims requiring extraordinary evidence, and the theorised flow of a yet unidentified river is not quite extraordinary evidence.

But let's say that he's right. He puts the Vedas to maximum 7000 years old. That's still tens of thousands of years younger than Australian Aboriginal culture, so Indo-Aryans are stil not the oldest culture in the world.
1)Source of inspiration:
People also draw inspiration from great scientist,great sources of knowledge,great philosophys and factual knowledge.Though i like the Star Wars comparison.There is no point debating the sources of inspiration,as it is a subjective matter but i would definitely believe that Scientists and Thinkers will probably draw inspiration from what they consider good concepts and interesting theories that would help them persue or excel in their respective feilds.And an Apple is a great fruit.
In your description you have probably highlighted the reason why the ancient Rishis reached the conclusion that God is manifest in everything and hence anything can be a source for inspiration.

2)People who don't know how to make fire:
I think there is no point discussing this as it hardly impacts the topic.Like i said that you can consider the whole humanity as an ancient culture from the time man was created/evolved.How can genetics attest how old a culture is?It can only give you a relative idea of when the population stopped interacting with other populations and you will still be clueless that what was the culture they followed or belonged to before they were isolated or after they were isolated.You can only comment on their present cultural habits.You might find people living in a Bombay slum to be prehistoric.

3)String theory and astrophysics:
I never claimed string theory is astrophysics but it's main purpose was to address questions about the universe and matter,You can make a theory as complex as you wan't it to be,my attempt to draw parrallels was at the conclusion level of the theory and not all the theorising.

4)Multiple worlds in different relegions:
If you mean that the concept of heaven,hell and the current world we live is an attestation to believing in parallel universes then i don't follow suite.But a part of my interest is in drawing parrallels between different relegious beliefs of different cultures and trying to determine which idea and concept originated where.Most of the instances that you mentioned were of different worlds and not parrallel universes.

5)Supremacist rhetoric:
Is often the the bread and butter of earlier European academics.And yes i said advance intelligence and thought process in the ancient Indians and it is a statement that you probably can't refute as it currently has global attestation.Spirituality and Philosophy are also signs of Advance intellect.Ancient Indians were not about a ethnic community but an assortment of many ethnic communities all ascribing to the same culture.If you praise ancient greeek scholar or culture does that make you an European supremacist?And intelligence reflects in the culture and ethics of a community (not necessarily in form of monuments etc).Sadly there was no internet at that time and certain intellectual concepts originated and were popular in certain geographic population and there is no supremacist rhetoric in stating that.

6)Higgs Boson:
You continous assertation that Higgs boson is one of many particles in the universe is well recieved but i only stated that it is the fundametal present in all matter (correct me if i am wrong).

The Higgs boson or Higgs particle is an elementary particle in the Standard Model of particle physics. The Higgs boson is predicted to exist for theoretical reasons, and may have been detected by experiments at the Large Hadron Collider. If confirmed, this detection would prove the existence of the hypotheticalHiggs field—the simplest[4] of several proposed mechanisms for the breaking of electroweak symmetry, and the means by which elementary particles acquiremass.[Note 3] The leading explanation is that a field exists that has non-zero strength everywhere—even in otherwise empty space—and that particles acquire mass when interacting with this so-called Higgs field. If this theory is true, a matching particle—the smallest possible excitation of the Higgs field—should also exist and be detectable, providing a crucial test of the theory. Consequently, it has been the target of a long search in particle physics.

Now the Vedas dont call it a Higgs Boson but they call it Brhman so you are right about Higgs Boson not originating in the Vedas,but there is striking similarities in the concept of Brhman i.e it is manifest in all matter and and without any specific physical qualities in itself. You can read up more on the concept of 'Brhman' and the similarities between the implications of Higgs Boson and Brhman will be evident to you if you think without prejudice.The vedic Rishi reached the conclusion that there had to be an underlying principle (you can call it the Higgs feild etc) "manifest" in all matter and made this a part of the Vedas.The Rishi called this underlying principle Brhman and acknowledged it as God.It might be easy for you in the present age with the knowledge of sub atomic particles to generalise that something being 'manifest' in everything is a simple statement but acheiving such a concept in such antiquity is a great feat.

7)Theory of evolution:
Since you have stated that you ascribe to the serious evolutionist thought process can you please tell me that do serious evolutionists think that Mammals,Aves,Amphibians,Fishes and Reptiles all evolved together?Or do they think there was a progression?You can claim according to the theory of evolution that there is no order in evolution but i am talking about practical observations.And i and many others are smart enough to spot paradolia.

8)Excerxise:
The concept of excercise evolved in modern history after sufficient technology was incorporated into our lifestyles to create the need for 'excercise'.For quite sometime it was believed that physical excersion causes decrease in longeivity.Though Yoga cannot be simply described as random physical excercise.The way you talk makes me feel that you cannot contemplate how concepts that seem simple to you have come down through history.In no other ancient culture a disciplined way of physical and mental excercise like 'Yoga' has been given so much importance or elaboration.

9)Disease:
It is not a question of knowing how a disease spreads or how an infection occur and probably the AI knew about it.They chose to focus on preventing such disease from spreading giving importance to preventing such disease in the first place by using principles of hygeine,disciplined lifestyle and immunity boosters and understanding indiviual body type and tendencies.You are highlighting shortfalls in their way of medicine which was developed as per the requirement of their population density and lifestyle with the requirements of modern population densities and lifestyle.Average life expectancy has not increased only because of western medicine but many other technological innovations,i don't have a bone to pick with western medicine and i don't believe it to be a bad science.I have a very good idea about immunity boosters and i am surprised you would equate it with autoimmunedisorder (hyperactive immune system) where the body tissue is recognised as foreign and attacked by own body cells.Augmenting a suppressed immunity system is also considered boosting it,infectious disease is often caused due to a deficiency in the immune system and hence correcting the deficiency is also boosting the immune system.Interesting view you have regarding naming of children in India but i will leave it at that.
Many Ayurvedic medicine have been acknowledged and studied to be effective and have been patented and used by western doctors but not prescribed as a allopathic medicine so this is a non-issue.And if western medicine recognises effectivity of ayurveda a lot of people will also end up losing a lot of money.This article gives a good comparison between the two systems:
http://ezinearticles...orld&id=6946405
I hope you are not alien to the concept of 'Preventive Medicine'.In either scenario having such a detailed medical system including surgeries at such ancient times is what i wanted to highlight.The reason for calling a system to be 'alternate' can be many and not necessarily a statement on it's effectivity.

10)Curing cancer:
Even western medicine recognises now that cancer cannot be only cured by external chemical agents but depends a lot on the body's own healing capabilities and also the mental strength of the patient.The cause and cures of cancer though accepted by mainstream or not is still a subject of huge debate.If the persons body is not capable of coping with chemo or radiation then the treatment itself can result in death.Ayurveda focuses on augmenting this healing capability of the body and mind.Ayurveda is an objective appraoch to disease and not eastern mysticism,you can read up on the diagnosis format of Ayurveda.(Eastern mysticism?? smacks of western supremacist notion).There is no parallel in western medicine which accounts for augmenting self healing capabilities of the body and the involvement of mental strength,western medicine begins only with the onset of disease (other then vaccincation ofcourse).

11)Aristotle:
Aristotle-300-400 B.C.
Bhagvad Gita-Atleast beyond 800 B.C by western historians and Aryan invasion/migration proponents.(suspected to be around 3067 B.C. by modern insights and research).
I would like to elaborate more but nevermind,though you can highlight the great contibutions of Aristotle and i can give you the Vedic counterpart.

12)Mechanical flight is a concept which is common between the Vedas and Puranas and modern day flight.You asked for a verse a direct quotation so i gave it to you.Whats your take on 'Horse Power' does it signify the no. of horses packed in the engine?

13)Style of paper writing:
The links of the papers i gave have been published in the JIES after being reviewed by six referees who are considered to be the word on migration theories etc so i suppose your standards are higher then them for allowing a paper to be published.I usually and i suppose most people who have a rational outlook will probably focus on the content and not writing style.All subjects of academic discussions do not follow a dry non-assertive format especially when related to language studies and history etc.The date of 7000 B.C. is the oldest attested date by him and not an absolute date.I am still confused on how you have arrived on your conclusions on the dating of Aboriginal culture and which elements of their culture do you date to be beyond 7000 B.C?(not talking about the age of the population).Please highlight some thought provoking elements of Aboriginal culture which you think are older then 7000 B.C and can be confirmed by atleast the information they provide about themselves their surroundings etc.


#21    Clobhair-cean

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 12:39 PM

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 04 October 2012 - 08:33 AM, said:

2)People who don't know how to make fire:

I think there is no point discussing this as it hardly impacts the topic.Like i said that you can consider the whole humanity as an ancient culture from the time man was created/evolved.How can genetics attest how old a culture is?It can only give you a relative idea of when the population stopped interacting with other populations and you will still be clueless that what was the culture they followed or belonged to before they were isolated or after they were isolated.You can only comment on their present cultural habits.You might find people living in a Bombay slum to be prehistoric.



Genetics can tell a lot about human populations. We know that the Andamanese are the only people in India who did not mix with Northern Indians. They are "pure" descendants of the Ancient South Indians, therefore they represent a more ancient population group. The Sentinelese a subgroup of the Andamanese people, who had no contact with the outside since time immemorial, therefore their culture must be the best-preserved from these already ancient populations. Their culture obviously changed over time, but so did Indo-Aryan culture.



View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 04 October 2012 - 08:33 AM, said:

You might find people living in a Bombay slum to be prehistoric.


Oh, don't be ridiculous. Have you ever been to any slum in your life? I personally visited seven of them in Chennai and also went to a gipsy community outside Pondicherry.There is nothing prehistoric about these communities, they are thoroughly modern in every sense of the word.



View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 04 October 2012 - 08:33 AM, said:

3)String theory and astrophysics:

I never claimed string theory is astrophysics but it's main purpose was to address questions about the universe and matter,You can make a theory as complex as you wan't it to be,my attempt to draw parrallels was at the conclusion level of the theory and not all the theorising.


Yes you did and no, you are making parallels based on very superficial notions.


View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 04 October 2012 - 08:33 AM, said:

4)Multiple worlds in different relegions:

If you mean that the concept of heaven,hell and the current world we live is an attestation to believing in parallel universes then i don't follow suite.But a part of my interest is in drawing parrallels between different relegious beliefs of different cultures and trying to determine which idea and concept originated where.Most of the instances that you mentioned were of different worlds and not parrallel universes.


Parallel worlds and parallel universes are the same, it's a question of rhetorics. Please read into the nine worlds of the Norse, they are far from being a simplistic heaven/hell. Then there's the Gaelic notions of Tír na nÓg and a parallel existence of the Milesians and the Tuatha De Danann.


View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 04 October 2012 - 08:33 AM, said:

5)Supremacist rhetoric:

Is often the the bread and butter of earlier European academics.And yes i said advance intelligence and thought process in the ancient Indians and it is a statement that you probably can't refute as it currently has global attestation.Spirituality and Philosophy are also signs of Advance intellect.Ancient Indians were not about a ethnic community but an assortment of many ethnic communities all ascribing to the same culture.If you praise ancient greeek scholar or culture does that make you an European supremacist?And intelligence reflects in the culture and ethics of a community (not necessarily in form of monuments etc).Sadly there was no internet at that time and certain intellectual concepts originated and were popular in certain geographic population and there is no supremacist rhetoric in stating that.


Once you claim that some peoples have an "advance intellect", then you also postulate that some don't. That's supremacism, fair and square.


View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 04 October 2012 - 08:33 AM, said:

6)Higgs Boson:

You continous assertation that Higgs boson is one of many particles in the universe is well recieved but i only stated that it is the fundametal present in all matter (correct me if i am wrong).


Well, for one, the universe is not only made up of matter, there is also antimatter. Also, the Higgs boson is only one of the many elementary particles that include, among others, gauge bosons, elementary fermions, quarks, etc. They are all present almost everywhere. The Higgs is not unique.


View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 04 October 2012 - 08:33 AM, said:

Now the Vedas dont call it a Higgs Boson but they call it Brhman so you are right about Higgs Boson not originating in the Vedas,but there is striking similarities in the concept of Brhman i.e it is manifest in all matter and and without any specific physical qualities in itself. You can read up more on the concept of 'Brhman' and the similarities between the implications of Higgs Boson and Brhman will be evident to you if you think without prejudice.The vedic Rishi reached the conclusion that there had to be an underlying principle (you can call it the Higgs feild etc) "manifest" in all matter and made this a part of the Vedas.The Rishi called this underlying principle Brhman and acknowledged it as God.It might be easy for you in the present age with the knowledge of sub atomic particles to generalise that something being 'manifest' in everything is a simple statement but acheiving such a concept in such antiquity is a great feat.



Please stop saying that a car is a helicopter just because both have wheels. You pick a very basic feature, that the Brhman and the Higgs Boson are everywhere and try to make grand conclusions out of this superficial similarity.


View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 04 October 2012 - 08:33 AM, said:

7)Theory of evolution:

Since you have stated that you ascribe to the serious evolutionist thought process can you please tell me that do serious evolutionists think that Mammals,Aves,Amphibians,Fishes and Reptiles all evolved together?Or do they think there was a progression?You can claim according to the theory of evolution that there is no order in evolution but i am talking about practical observations.And i and many others are smart enough to spot paradolia.


As I've said, I won't discuss evolution with you, as you have demonstrated in many previous threads that your biases and lack of understanding of fundamental principles makes it impossible to have an intelligent debate with you on the subject.


But yes, all present life forms evolved together, side by side. Some groups appeared earlier, some later, some branched off, some died out. But the notion of progress is alien to modern evolutionary theory.


View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 04 October 2012 - 08:33 AM, said:

8)Excerxise:

The concept of excercise evolved in modern history after sufficient technology was incorporated into our lifestyles to create the need for 'excercise'.For quite sometime it was believed that physical excersion causes decrease in longeivity.[citation needed]  Though Yoga cannot be simply described as random physical excercise.The way you talk makes me feel that you cannot contemplate how concepts that seem simple to you have come down through history.In no other ancient culture a disciplined way of physical and mental excercise like 'Yoga' has been given so much importance or elaboration [citation needed].



View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 04 October 2012 - 08:33 AM, said:

9)Disease:

It is not a question of knowing how a disease spreads or how an infection occur and probably the AI knew about it [citation needed].They chose to focus on preventing such disease from spreading giving importance to preventing such disease in the first place by using principles of hygeine,disciplined lifestyle and immunity boosters and understanding indiviual body type and tendencies.You are highlighting shortfalls in their way of medicine which was developed as per the requirement of their population density and lifestyle with the requirements of modern population densities and lifestyle.Average life expectancy has not increased only because of western medicine but many other technological innovations,i don't have a bone to pick with western medicine and i don't believe it to be a bad science.I have a very good idea about immunity boosters and i am surprised you would equate it with autoimmunedisorder (hyperactive immune system) where the body tissue is recognised as foreign and attacked by own body cells.Augmenting a suppressed immunity system is also considered boosting it,infectious disease is often caused due to a deficiency in the immune system and hence correcting the deficiency is also boosting the immune system.


Here's a nice article, written by an infectious disease specialist with decades of experience about "boosting" the immune system. i think he might know a little bit more about the subject than you.


View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 04 October 2012 - 08:33 AM, said:

Interesting view you have regarding naming of children in India but i will leave it at that.


It's not my view. It's the view of the academics at the Department of Anthropology at the University of Madras and the slum dwellers I talked to. And no, don't leave it. Why is this still around, if traditional Indian medicine was so effective?




#22    Clobhair-cean

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 12:42 PM

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 04 October 2012 - 08:33 AM, said:

Many Ayurvedic medicine have been acknowledged and studied to be effective and have been patented and used by western doctors but not prescribed as a allopathic medicine so this is a non-issue.And if western medicine recognises effectivity of ayurveda a lot of people will also end up losing a lot of money.This article gives a good comparison between the two systems:
http://ezinearticles...orld&id=6946405
I hope you are not alien to the concept of 'Preventive Medicine'.In either scenario having such a detailed medical system including surgeries at such ancient times is what i wanted to highlight.The reason for calling a system to be 'alternate' can be many and not necessarily a statement on it's effectivity.

Here's another article, by another actually doctor that thoroughly deconstructs Ayurveda as more or less pure quackery.



View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 04 October 2012 - 08:33 AM, said:


10)Curing cancer:
Even western medicine recognises now that cancer cannot be only cured by external chemical agents but depends a lot on the body's own healing capabilities and also the mental strength of the patient.The cause and cures of cancer though accepted by mainstream or not is still a subject of huge debate.If the persons body is not capable of coping with chemo or radiation then the treatment itself can result in death.Ayurveda focuses on augmenting this healing capability of the body and mind.Ayurveda is an objective appraoch to disease and not eastern mysticism,you can read up on the diagnosis format of Ayurveda.(Eastern mysticism?? smacks of western supremacist notion).There is no parallel in western medicine which accounts for augmenting self healing capabilities of the body and the involvement of mental strength,western medicine begins only with the onset of disease (other then vaccincation ofcourse).


Yet another article by a doctor, detailing what happens when cancer patients choose alternative medicine over science-based medicine.

And no, labelling Eastern mysticism as Eastern mysticism is not supremacist, especially if it is about mysticism that comes from the East. If it came from the West, like homeopathy, I would call it Western mysticism.


View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 04 October 2012 - 08:33 AM, said:

11)Aristotle:
Aristotle-300-400 B.C.
Bhagvad Gita-Atleast beyond 800 B.C by western historians and Aryan invasion/migration proponents.(suspected to be around 3067 B.C. by modern insights and research).
I would like to elaborate more but nevermind,though you can highlight the great contibutions of Aristotle and i can give you the Vedic counterpart.

Yes. Because these ideas emerged independently from each other in different places. That's the whole point.

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 04 October 2012 - 08:33 AM, said:

12)Mechanical flight is a concept which is common between the Vedas and Puranas and modern day flight.You asked for a verse a direct quotation so i gave it to you.Whats your take on 'Horse Power' does it signify the no. of horses packed in the engine?

I asked for a direct quotation that details mechanical flight. You gave me a direct quotation about goat-drawn flying carts that have no semblance to any understanding of mechanical flights whatsoever. You can't be serious.

And horsepower is just a name, it has nothing to do with horses in the 21st century. It was invented by Watt, to serve as an easy to understand comparison between steam power and its competitor, horse power. It's not like an explicit description that tiny little horses run around and around an engine and that makes planes fly.

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 04 October 2012 - 08:33 AM, said:

13)Style of paper writing:
The links of the papers i gave have been published in the JIES after being reviewed by six referees who are considered to be the word on migration theories etc so i suppose your standards are higher then them for allowing a paper to be published.I usually and i suppose most people who have a rational outlook will probably focus on the content and not writing style.All subjects of academic discussions do not follow a dry non-assertive format especially when related to language studies and history etc.The date of 7000 B.C. is the oldest attested date by him and not an absolute date.I am still confused on how you have arrived on your conclusions on the dating of Aboriginal culture and which elements of their culture do you date to be beyond 7000 B.C?(not talking about the age of the population).Please highlight some thought provoking elements of Aboriginal culture which you think are older then 7000 B.C and can be confirmed by atleast the information they provide about themselves their surroundings etc.

The writing style is very important when it comes to academics. At the English Department of my University, these papers would be thrown out of any first-year course. Furthermore, I can not find any connection between Omilios Melton and the JIES and I can't take your word for that for obvious reasons.


And as far as Australians go, for example, the rock art at Ubirr in the Kakadu National Park has been continuously expanded for 40.000 years. The Aboriginal people living in the area still paint there, still revere the site and still understand the images. That's continuous culture for you. How many people in India can still read the Vedas?


#23    Harsh86_Patel

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 07:49 AM

Since we have digressed from the topic i wish not to elaborate but can't leave a few things you have stated unreplied.

1)'Pure descendants of ancient south indians'........can give you an idea of what their culture was before they were isolated and probably lost large chunks of their actual culture,North indians and south indians indicate the Geography of the Indian population and nothing else.


Genetic anthropology

Main article: Genetics and archaeogenetics of South Asia

Genetic views on race differ in their classification of Dravidians. Classical anthropologists, such as Carleton S. Coon in his 1939 work The Races of Europe, argued that Ethiopia in Northeast Africa and India in South Asia represented the outermost peripheries of the Caucasoid race. In the 1960s, genetic anthropologist Stanley Marion Garn considered the entirety of the Indian subcontinent to be a "race" genetically distinct from other populations.[13][14] The geneticist L.L. Cavalli-Sforza of Stanford, based on work done in the 1980s, classified Indians as being genetically Caucasian. Cavalli-Sforza theorized that Indians are about three times closer to West Europeans than to East Asians.[13] More recently, other geneticists, such as Lynn B. Jorde and Stephen P. Wooding, demonstrated that South Indians are genetic intermediaries between Europeans and East Asians.[15][16][17] Nevertheless, Indians are classified by modern anthropologists as belonging to one of four different morphological or ethno-racial subtypes, although these generally overlap because of admixture: Caucasoid (concentrated in the north), Mongoloid (concentrated in the north), Australoid (concentrated in the south), and Negrito (located in the Andaman Islands).[18][19]Dravidians are generally classified as members of the Proto-Australoid or Australoid race. [20][21][22] In one study, southern Indian Dravidians clustered genetically with Tamils, a socially endogamous, predominantly Dravidian-speaking Australoid group.[23]

While a number of earlier anthropologists held the view that the Dravidian people together were a distinct race, a small number of genetic studies based on uniparental markers have challenged this view. Some researchers have indicated that both Dravidian and Indo-Aryan speakers are indigenous to the Indian subcontinent; however, this point of view is rejected by most researchers in favor of Indo-Aryan migration, with racial stratification among Indian populations being distributed along caste lines.[24][25][26][27]

Because of admixture between Caucasoid, Mongoloid and Australoid racial groups, one cannot speak of a biologically separate "Dravidian race" distinct from non-Dravidians on the Indian subcontinent. In a 2009 study of 132 individuals, 560,000 single-nucleotide polymorphisms in 25 different Indian groups were analyzed, providing strong evidence in support of the notion that modern Indians (both Indo-Aryan and Dravidian groups) are a hybrid population descending from two post-Neolithic, genetically divergent populations referred to as the 'Ancestral North Indians' and the 'Ancestral South Indians'. According to the study, Andamanese are an ASI-related group without ANI ancestry, showing that the peopling of the islands must have occurred before ANI-ASI gene flow on the mainland. [28] ANI-ASI admixture happened some 1,200-3,500 years ago, which roughly coincides with the Indo-Aryan conquest of the Indian subcontinent.[29][full citation needed]


There is no pure South Indian race or probably never was.There was never even an Indian race as genetic studies have shown that we are a admixture of many different so called races.The so called ancestral south Indian and ancestral north indians could have very well diverged from a common indian sub group and the Andamanese can be a sub sub group of the so called ancient south indians.In either scenario this has no real impact on what we are discussing,since unless you link here some written format or lore of the andamanese culture we can't comment on it to be older or newer.


2)You talk about Chennai when i talk about Bombay/Mumbai but nevermind.(Are you a Tamilian?).What i was trying to get across is that backwardness or lack of development is not necessarily a sign of being ancient or different.But it is good to know that the slum dwellers in Chennai are thouroughly modern,people in Mumbai slums residents usually come from small villages throughout India and are often backward and illiterate,some still live without bathrooms and electricity.


3)When i compare string theory with Vedic philosophy/Science i am not comparing on the core level i.e fundamentals.And i never said string theory is astrophysics you can check the previous posts.


4)Different worlds can be = different planets not necessarily parrallel universes.(I feel you know that)


5)I am only stating an observed fact that some ancient cultures were more advanced intellectually then others.We still have IQ tests don't we?Is it a supremacist practice?Is merit a supremacist concept?There is also another word called 'Intellectual Bigotry' i.e predetermined thoughts and beliefs to certain subjects without evaluating it objectively usually based on racial beliefs and cultural influences.


6)Again you educate regarding multiple sub-atomic particles which i never contested in the first place,I am particularly talking about Higg's Boson and it is present or 'Manifest' in all matter hence my comparison of it to 'Brhman'


7)The car and a helicopter both have an engine that runs on fuel.My comparison are based on basic concepts or ultimate conclusions and not the theorising like i mentioned before.The engine is the core around which both vehicles are designed to perform different functions.You can also point out a TV and a Fan seems different but both running on 'Electricity'.Without electricity there is no TV or fan.


8)You can read as many allopathic criticisms of ayurveda but i will like to surmise it in few words as i am against none of the systems and deeply believe that both systems are altruistic in intent:

Allopathy--->Side effects,Starts with the onset of disease,gives preference to artificially synthesized chemicals/drugs,doesn't give much important to mental state in treatment,is often based on choosing the leasser evil.

Ayurveda--->Herbal,No real side effects (use of heavy metals in a "few" concotions is being debated),focusses on prevention,takes into account physical,mental and physiological state in the process of healing.

http://nccam.nih.gov...ntroduction.htm

The above link is a good overview on Ayurveda and it sure isn't 'Quackery' of any sort.Though there can be 'quacks' practicisng it but there are 'quacks' in western medicine too.


I am also posting the link below to put a few things into perspective regarding "allopathic" medicine.

http://www.webdc.com...hbymedicine.pdf


Regarding alternate medicine i would first be prudent in stating which form of medicine is alternative in nature i.e which has evolved fairly recently and provided an alternative and also would like to point out that the niche carved for various 'alternate' systems of medicine is not because everyone is happy with 'allopathy'.


9)Ideas are also borrowed and plagarised,intellectual property rights anyone?


10)Highlighting 'horsepower' was to point out how some words directly interpretted can be misleading even in the modern context.


11)The paper was published in JIES you can check for yourself.No need to believe anything i say on faith.The utility of writing i believe is in the clarity with which it can convey the intended message.You can have your strict formats and edits but i would not bother much with them unless they change or imapct the meaning.


12)How many people can still read the Vedas? as many as those who can read and wan't to read it,but it will be surely lesser then the number of people who can see pictures and understand them.Every Hindu knows about the Vedas doesn't necessarily read or byheart them though other epics like 'Mahabharata' and 'Ramayana' have more popular appeal.



#24    Clobhair-cean

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 05:44 PM

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 05 October 2012 - 07:49 AM, said:

Since we have digressed from the topic i wish not to elaborate but can't leave a few things you have stated unreplied.

1)'Pure descendants of ancient south indians'........can give you an idea of what their culture was before they were isolated and probably lost large chunks of their actual culture,North indians and south indians indicate the Geography of the Indian population and nothing else.

There is nothing to indicate that these people's culture got isolated at some point and anything was lost. It is much more logical that they moved to the island at a less developed state, which got conserved through isolation.

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 05 October 2012 - 07:49 AM, said:

There is no pure South Indian race or probably never was.There was never even an Indian race as genetic studies have shown that we are a admixture of many different so called races.The so called ancestral south Indian and ancestral north indians could have very well diverged from a common indian sub group and the Andamanese can be a sub sub group of the so called ancient south indians.In either scenario this has no real impact on what we are discussing,since unless you link here some written format or lore of the andamanese culture we can't comment on it to be older or newer.
Next time try looking further than Wikipedia

Here's a paper proving that the Andamanese are the only people in India with no traces Ancestral North Indian genes, and closest to the Ancestral South Indian state that existed before the Northerners arrived: http://genepath.med....Reich_India.pdf

Here's another paper, with genetic proof that the Andamanese are the unique descendants of the people who first colonised Southern Asia: http://www.krepublis...003-Kashyap.pdf

And one more, further reinforcing my thesis: http://www.ncbi.nlm....cles/PMC378623/

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 05 October 2012 - 07:49 AM, said:

2)You talk about Chennai when i talk about Bombay/Mumbai but nevermind.(Are you a Tamilian?).What i was trying to get across is that backwardness or lack of development is not necessarily a sign of being ancient or different.But it is good to know that the slum dwellers in Chennai are thouroughly modern,people in Mumbai slums residents usually come from small villages throughout India and are often backward and illiterate,some still live without bathrooms and electricity.


Once again, you are talking about things you have no clue about. The slums, no matter their geographic locations in India, are very similar to each other, and don't show backwardness or lack of development, only deep poverty. They are the products of urbanisation processes and the people living in them are, by all means, modern, even if they lack basic amenities. You can't compare them with people living in truly prehistoric circumstances.

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 05 October 2012 - 07:49 AM, said:

3)When i compare string theory with Vedic philosophy/Science i am not comparing on the core level i.e fundamentals.And i never said string theory is astrophysics you can check the previous posts.

Yes, you are comparing them on an extremely superficial level, which makes the comparison worthless.

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 05 October 2012 - 07:49 AM, said:

4)Different worlds can be = different planets not necessarily parrallel universes.(I feel you know that)

They are not different planets in the examples I cited.

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 05 October 2012 - 07:49 AM, said:

5)I am only stating an observed fact that some ancient cultures were more advanced intellectually then others.We still have IQ tests don't we?Is it a supremacist practice?Is merit a supremacist concept?There is also another word called 'Intellectual Bigotry' i.e predetermined thoughts and beliefs to certain subjects without evaluating it objectively usually based on racial beliefs and cultural influences.

Yes, there were cultures with more intellectual achievements then others. But that was not due to their intelligence, only their circumstances. You need a level of urbanisation and economic power for that, which depend on many environmental factors. But no culture ever possessed a more or less advanced intelligence.

And yes, IQ test exist, but are deeply flawed. You can't use the same test for all people, the tests have to be tailor-made for cultural and social groups, or else the results will not reflect reality.

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 05 October 2012 - 07:49 AM, said:

6)Again you educate regarding multiple sub-atomic particles which i never contested in the first place,I am particularly talking about Higg's Boson and it is present or 'Manifest' in all matter hence my comparison of it to 'Brhman'

And I am pointing out that singling out one of the many particles that are present in all matter makes no sense.

How does Brhman deal with antimatter?

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 05 October 2012 - 07:49 AM, said:

7)The car and a helicopter both have an engine that runs on fuel.My comparison are based on basic concepts or ultimate conclusions and not the theorising like i mentioned before.The engine is the core around which both vehicles are designed to perform different functions.You can also point out a TV and a Fan seems different but both running on 'Electricity'.Without electricity there is no TV or fan.

The engine of a helicopter and a car is completely different. Of course, if you view it from as far as possible, they'll seem the same, but they are not. But this only reflects, once again, the basic flaw of your argument. You can't compare things in such a superficial way, because this way, you can draw parallels between everything.

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 05 October 2012 - 07:49 AM, said:

8)You can read as many allopathic criticisms of ayurveda but i will like to surmise it in few words as i am against none of the systems and deeply believe that both systems are altruistic in intent:
Allopathy--->Side effects,Starts with the onset of disease,gives preference to artificially synthesized chemicals/drugs,doesn't give much important to mental state in treatment,is often based on choosing the leasser evil.
Ayurveda--->Herbal,No real side effects (use of heavy metals in a "few" concotions is being debated),focusses on prevention,takes into account physical,mental and physiological state in the process of healing.
http://nccam.nih.gov...ntroduction.htm
The above link is a good overview on Ayurveda and it sure isn't 'Quackery' of any sort.Though there can be 'quacks' practicisng it but there are 'quacks' in western medicine too.

They both have an altruistic intent, but as the articles posted show, only one of them actually works.

And this is the important bit from your article:

" Most clinical trials (i.e., studies in people) of Ayurvedic approaches have been small, had problems with research designs, lacked appropriate control groups, or had other issues that affected how meaningful the results were. Therefore, scientific evidence for the effectiveness of Ayurvedic practices varies, and more rigorous research is needed to determine which practices are safe and effective."

AKA there's no evidence whatsoever that all this actually works. And, I can't say it enough, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 05 October 2012 - 07:49 AM, said:

I am also posting the link below to put a few things into perspective regarding "allopathic" medicine.
http://www.webdc.com...hbymedicine.pdf.

What's your point? We all know that medicine can be dangerous. But we also know that it works. It cures diseases, ranging from influensa to cancer. Medicine is slowly but steadily turning the tide on AIDS. Did traditional practices eradicate smallpox? How many people with malaria were cured with medicine and how many were saved by Ayurveda? Science-based medicine works, and that's a fact.


View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 05 October 2012 - 07:49 AM, said:

Regarding alternate medicine i would first be prudent in stating which form of medicine is alternative in nature i.e which has evolved fairly recently and provided an alternative and also would like to point out that the niche carved for various 'alternate' systems of medicine is not because everyone is happy with 'allopathy'.

I fail to see what you want to achieve here.


View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 05 October 2012 - 07:49 AM, said:

9)Ideas are also borrowed and plagarised,intellectual property rights anyone?

Yes they are. Your point being?


View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 05 October 2012 - 07:49 AM, said:

10)Highlighting 'horsepower' was to point out how some words directly interpretted can be misleading even in the modern context.

This is an intellectually vacuous argument. Horsepower is not misleading in context: "This plane has a 500 hp engine" (notice the words "plane" and "engine". It is obvious to anyone that horsepower is an abstract concept, and not actual horses), and neither is a description of a chariot that is drawn by goats. There is no way you can interpret "goats" as "jet engine" or even "turboprop engine". They are goats. The Vedas have nothing to do with mechanical flight.


View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 05 October 2012 - 07:49 AM, said:

11)The paper was published in JIES you can check for yourself.No need to believe anything i say on faith.The utility of writing i believe is in the clarity with which it can convey the intended message.You can have your strict formats and edits but i would not bother much with them unless they change or imapct the meaning.

Why should I check it? You made the claim, you have the burden of proof.

You wouldn't bother with them, but fortunately you have no authority over academic writing. These standards exist for a good reason.



View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 05 October 2012 - 07:49 AM, said:

12)How many people can still read the Vedas? as many as those who can read and wan't to read it,but it will be surely lesser then the number of people who can see pictures and understand them.Every Hindu knows about the Vedas doesn't necessarily read or byheart them though other epics like 'Mahabharata' and 'Ramayana' have more popular appeal.

Don't weasel out. What percentage of Indians can read the Vedas in their original Sanskrit? How many? If you go to Arnhem Land, every Aboriginal Australian living there will be able to interpret the rock paintings. And these are not simple doodles, but complex works, laced with hidden symbolism and illustrating complicated stories.


#25    Harsh86_Patel

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 12:46 PM

View PostClobhair-cean, on 06 October 2012 - 05:44 PM, said:

There is nothing to indicate that these people's culture got isolated at some point and anything was lost. It is much more logical that they moved to the island at a less developed state, which got conserved through isolation.


Next time try looking further than Wikipedia

Here's a paper proving that the Andamanese are the only people in India with no traces Ancestral North Indian genes, and closest to the Ancestral South Indian state that existed before the Northerners arrived: http://genepath.med....Reich_India.pdf

Here's another paper, with genetic proof that the Andamanese are the unique descendants of the people who first colonised Southern Asia: http://www.krepublis...003-Kashyap.pdf

And one more, further reinforcing my thesis: http://www.ncbi.nlm....cles/PMC378623/



Once again, you are talking about things you have no clue about. The slums, no matter their geographic locations in India, are very similar to each other, and don't show backwardness or lack of development, only deep poverty. They are the products of urbanisation processes and the people living in them are, by all means, modern, even if they lack basic amenities. You can't compare them with people living in truly prehistoric circumstances.



Yes, you are comparing them on an extremely superficial level, which makes the comparison worthless.



They are not different planets in the examples I cited.



Yes, there were cultures with more intellectual achievements then others. But that was not due to their intelligence, only their circumstances. You need a level of urbanisation and economic power for that, which depend on many environmental factors. But no culture ever possessed a more or less advanced intelligence.

And yes, IQ test exist, but are deeply flawed. You can't use the same test for all people, the tests have to be tailor-made for cultural and social groups, or else the results will not reflect reality.



And I am pointing out that singling out one of the many particles that are present in all matter makes no sense.

How does Brhman deal with antimatter?



The engine of a helicopter and a car is completely different. Of course, if you view it from as far as possible, they'll seem the same, but they are not. But this only reflects, once again, the basic flaw of your argument. You can't compare things in such a superficial way, because this way, you can draw parallels between everything.



They both have an altruistic intent, but as the articles posted show, only one of them actually works.

And this is the important bit from your article:

" Most clinical trials (i.e., studies in people) of Ayurvedic approaches have been small, had problems with research designs, lacked appropriate control groups, or had other issues that affected how meaningful the results were. Therefore, scientific evidence for the effectiveness of Ayurvedic practices varies, and more rigorous research is needed to determine which practices are safe and effective."

AKA there's no evidence whatsoever that all this actually works. And, I can't say it enough, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.



What's your point? We all know that medicine can be dangerous. But we also know that it works. It cures diseases, ranging from influensa to cancer. Medicine is slowly but steadily turning the tide on AIDS. Did traditional practices eradicate smallpox? How many people with malaria were cured with medicine and how many were saved by Ayurveda? Science-based medicine works, and that's a fact.




I fail to see what you want to achieve here.




Yes they are. Your point being?




This is an intellectually vacuous argument. Horsepower is not misleading in context: "This plane has a 500 hp engine" (notice the words "plane" and "engine". It is obvious to anyone that horsepower is an abstract concept, and not actual horses), and neither is a description of a chariot that is drawn by goats. There is no way you can interpret "goats" as "jet engine" or even "turboprop engine". They are goats. The Vedas have nothing to do with mechanical flight.




Why should I check it? You made the claim, you have the burden of proof.

You wouldn't bother with them, but fortunately you have no authority over academic writing. These standards exist for a good reason.





Don't weasel out. What percentage of Indians can read the Vedas in their original Sanskrit? How many? If you go to Arnhem Land, every Aboriginal Australian living there will be able to interpret the rock paintings. And these are not simple doodles, but complex works, laced with hidden symbolism and illustrating complicated stories.
1)More logical to whom?does your logic define actual events that happened millenias ago?It is equally logical to assume that the population was seperated and hence lost out on a lot of it's cultural knowledge.

2)Regarding genetic studies:
http://indianrealist...netic-evidence/
http://vivekajyoti.b...study-that.html
http://frontiers-of-...study-that.html
There are equal no of genetic studies that negate any real genetic divide between North Indians and South Indians and assert the contrary.If you have issues with info on wiki then why not go and update it to your level of currentness.
Put dates for suspected colonisation of Southern India so i can better demolish your thesis as indicated by the genetic studies that you have posted.Using genetic studies to extrapolate population migration is a very stupid and fallacious excercise in it's present form and i can elaborate on the inaccuracies which seep in the inference section.If you are going to assume then i will put forward some other popular assumptions.Though these have nothing to do with Vedic culture but i would still entertain you,list down the crux of your argument for your migration theory and i will put forward mine,don't only post links but please elaborate in your own words.

3)I have spent more time and interacted with slum dwellers in bombay then you have so lets not question my knowledge of slums in Mumbai.

4)Regarding superficial comparisons please elaborate on the nation credited to be the first democracy and compoare their systems with a modern democracy,do the differences in approach discredit the underlying concept.This is a subjective opinion so you can have your own.

5)Thanks for giving your opinion on IQ tests but you still didn't answer my question:is it a supremacist practice?

6)There were culture with advance intelligence in history of civilization,you can deny and remain ignorant.Urbanisation is not a requirement for advance intelligence which can exist even without Urbanisation.

7)Regarding evidence for effectivity of Ayurveda go search yourself other then western medical sources,wiki often gives a non-biased view from both sides of an argument.It is surprising how you quote from Wiki in this instance.

8)You talk of how many people were saved in ancient times by disease that probably didn't manifest in those times at a scale that we observed fairly recently.When was Aids observed in modern civilization and why did it spread? When has cancer become prominent and a major disease and under what circumstances? Why were there epidemics of small pox?Was it because of hygeine issues?Could small pox epidemics have been prevented by principles of hygeine?

9)Age of similar ideas can indicate which was inspired from which.

10)OMG the justification that you gave for 'Horse Power' and the rejection for 'Goat powered' is very convincing to us in this age since we never used 'Goat power'.

11)I am not weaseling out on anything,i still maintain that as many people who wan't to 'read' the Vedas in original Sanskrit can read it and not only in India but even in foreign countries which are now having entire departments dedicated to such studies.
And like i said it the no. of people who can see images and interpret them will always be more then people who can 'read' a particular language.Countless generations of Indians till the present date can recognise and interpret images of vedic Gods and lores.If peoples ability to intrerpret pictures or images impresses you then you can find it all around the world in all cultures through out the world and is not a statement on current relevancy of their culture or a statement on their advance intelligence or the antiquity of their culture.So i don't understand the point you are trying to make regarding the interpretations of images etc?

12)Checking out if an article has been published in JIES.I will leave it at that,since you cast the doubt why don't you justify your doubt by showing it wasn't published in JIES until then i will considered the matter settled.

13)Regarding your thesis,it is surprisingly represented on WIKI,you can call it the Negrito thesis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negrito

14)Still waiting for gems of Andamanese culture or any lore or texts that can attest to the antiquity of their advance culture or intellect,please don't weasel out on this request since you claimed that their culture has to be older then the vedic culture.

15)Brhman doesn't need to deal with antimatter,people who claimed it's existence need to deal with it and demonstrate it under laboratory conditions but if i remeber correctly antimatter would explode if it comes in contact with matter so it conveniently can never be observed or it's existence cannot be proved. According to vedic mythology there is a continous interaction between the manifest and the unmanifest.

16)Strict format requirements for academic papers is probably a brain child of the intellectually vaccuous and a rigid biased mind set of traditional dogma, the practice is not really a hallmark of academic intelligence but probably a source of occupation for text editors and a sort of obsessive mental mastrubation for people who can't give importance to content but are more preoccupied by the presentation.Probably it is for people who can't really add to intellectual academic content and rather try to disguise their garbage by strict formatting as the meaning of the content is vaccuous and the only way the paper can earn a right of passage is due to it's formatting.

17)http://en.wikipedia....damanese_people
http://en.wikipedia....iki/Onge_people

Was trying to search for Andamanese culture/religion couldn't find anything.But the stupid suggestion of them migrating out of africa 50,000 years back really stood out but atleast they used words like 'seems to have' instead of has.And i was pretty astounded by the small population size and how can you determine a dang from such a small statistical group.


Recent history

In 1974, a film crew and anthropologist Trilokinath Pandit attempted friendly contact by leaving a tethered pig, some pots and pans, some fruit and toys on the beach at North Sentinel Island. One of the islanders shot the film director in the thigh with an arrow. The following year, European visitors were repulsed with arrows.[26][27][28]

On August 2, 1981, the ship Primrose grounded on the North Sentinel Island reef. A few days later, crewmen on the immobile vessel observed that small black men were carrying spears and arrows and building boats on the beach. The captain of the Primrose radioed for an urgent airdrop of firearms so the crew could defend themselves, but did not receive them. Heavy seas kept the islanders away from the ship. After a week, the crew were rescued by an Indian navy helicopter.[26]

On January 4, 1991, Indian scholar Trilokinath Pandit made the first known friendly contact with the Sentinelese.[28]

Until 1996, the Jarawa met most visitors with flying arrows. From time to time they attacked and killed poachers on the lands reserved to them by the Indian government. They also killed some workers building the Andaman Trunk Road (ATR), which traverses Jarawa lands. One of the earliest peaceful contacts with the Jarawa occurred in 1996. Settlers found a teenage Jarawa boy named Emmei near Kadamtala town. The boy was immobilized with a broken foot. They took Emmei to a hospital where he received good care. Over several weeks, Emmei learned a few words of Hindi before returning to his jungle home. The following year, Jarawa individuals and small groups began appearing along roadsides and occasionally venturing into settlements to steal food. The ATR may have interfered with traditional Jarawa food sources.[29][30][31.


Dont seem to be a very cultured or friendly sort.



#26    Clobhair-cean

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 03:51 PM

[quote name='Harsh86_Patel' timestamp='1349700396' post='4492214']
1)More logical to whom?does your logic define actual events that happened millenias ago?It is equally logical to assume that the population was seperated and hence lost out on a lot of it's cultural knowledge.[/quote]

Because while we have a lot of examples of isolation-based conservation, almost none of populations that for some reason got separated and lost all their knowledge, including some which are among the most basic things humans do.

[quote name='Harsh86_Patel' timestamp='1349700396' post='4492214']
2)Regarding genetic studies:
[url="http://indianrealist.wordpress.com/2009/09/27/aryan-dravidian-racist-theory-trashed-again-by-genetic-evidence/"]http://indianrealist...netic-evidence/[/url]
[url="http://vivekajyoti.blogspot.com/2011/12/yet-another-genetic-study-that.html"]http://vivekajyoti.b...study-that.html[/url]
[url="http://frontiers-of-anthropology.blogspot.com/2011/12/yet-another-genetic-study-that.html"]http://frontiers-of-...study-that.html[/url]

[/quote]

I post peer-reviewed scientific articles, you reply with crackpot blog posts, well played, sir.

And gosh, did you even read these? They agree with what I've been saying!

From the first article:
"“The initial settlement took place 65,000 years ago in the Andamans and in ancient south India around the same time, which led to population growth in this part,”"

[quote name='Harsh86_Patel' timestamp='1349700396' post='4492214']
There are equal no of genetic studies that negate any real genetic divide between North Indians and South Indians and assert the contrary.If you have issues with info on wiki then why not go and update it to your level of currentness.
Put dates for suspected colonisation of Southern India so i can better demolish your thesis as indicated by the genetic studies that you have posted.Using genetic studies to extrapolate population migration is a very stupid and fallacious excercise in it's present form and i can elaborate on the inaccuracies which seep in the inference section.If you are going to assume then i will put forward some other popular assumptions.Though these have nothing to do with Vedic culture but i would still entertain you,list down the crux of your argument for your migration theory and i will put forward mine,don't only post links but please elaborate in your own words.[/quote]

Please do, you great geneticist, demolish the findings of the peer-reviewed papers I posted. I agree with them, so their positions are my positions.


[quote name='Harsh86_Patel' timestamp='1349700396' post='4492214']
3)I have spent more time and interacted with slum dwellers in bombay then you have so lets not question my knowledge of slums in Mumbai.[/quote]

I don't believe you. If you did, you would not have called these communities prehistoric. Or maybe you just don't know what "prehistoric means".


[quote name='Harsh86_Patel' timestamp='1349700396' post='4492214']
4)Regarding superficial comparisons please elaborate on the nation credited to be the first democracy and compoare their systems with a modern democracy,do the differences in approach discredit the underlying concept.This is a subjective opinion so you can have your own.[/quote]

This makes no sense. At the most basic level, democracy is still a complicated thing. Here's one basic definition:

"a system of government by the whole population or all the eligible members of a state, typically through elected representatives"

You can't compare this with " this thing is everywhere in this work of fiction, and there's a real thing, which is kinda everywhere, but not really. Therefore, they are the same".


[quote name='Harsh86_Patel' timestamp='1349700396' post='4492214']
5)Thanks for giving your opinion on IQ tests but you still didn't answer my question:is it a supremacist practice?[/quote]

No it's not, but you do realise that you are making less and less sense now?


[quote name='Harsh86_Patel' timestamp='1349700396' post='4492214']
6)There were culture with advance intelligence in history of civilization,you can deny and remain ignorant.Urbanisation is not a requirement for advance intelligence which can exist even without Urbanisation.[/quote]

Yes, intelligence exists without urbanisation. Intellectual achievements don't, not after a certain stage. And no, there were no cultures with more advanced intelligence, because people in general have the same intellectual capacity no matter where or when they live.


[quote name='Harsh86_Patel' timestamp='1349700396' post='4492214']
7)Regarding evidence for effectivity of Ayurveda go search yourself other then western medical sources,wiki often gives a non-biased view from both sides of an argument.It is surprising how you quote from Wiki in this instance.[/quote]

Wikipedia is not a scientific source. While it is a great resource for general information, if you want medical information, go to medical journals. There have been practically no proper studies that prove the efficacy of Ayurveda.

And no, there is no both sides when it comes to empirical data. Either something has been proven, or not.


[quote name='Harsh86_Patel' timestamp='1349700396' post='4492214']
8)You talk of how many people were saved in ancient times by disease that probably didn't manifest in those times at a scale that we observed fairly recently.When was Aids observed in modern civilization and why did it spread? When has cancer become prominent and a major disease and under what circumstances? Why were there epidemics of small pox?Was it because of hygeine issues?Could small pox epidemics have been prevented by principles of hygeine?[/quote]

AIDS is a new thing, that's true. But Cancer has been around since humanity, though probably not on today's scale simply because people didn't live long enough. Now smallpox, that's a different matter. Smallpox, on the other hand, was been killing millions of people since Classical Antiquity, or even earlier. The Antonine Plague, that was most probably a smallpox epidemic, killed 5 million inhabitants of the Roman Empire in 168-180 CE.

And it seems that hygiene did not matter. Europeans of the 16th century had hideous hygiene. But the people in the Americas were the complete opposite, they bathed regularly, and their cities were remarkably clean, with excellent waste management infrastructure. In general, the people of the Americas (apart from maybe peoples on the edges, like the Fuegians) were taller, fitter and healthier than the Europeans. They were also cleaner and had a much more balanced and healthy diet. Yet, in 100 years, 90% of them, maybe up to 150 million people were gone, mostly thanks to smallpox, introduced from Europe. The reasons of this are perfectly understood thanks to modern medical science. And, smallpox has now been eradicated thanks to a vaccination programme.


[quote name='Harsh86_Patel' timestamp='1349700396' post='4492214']
9)Age of similar ideas can indicate which was inspired from which.[/quote]

Not without a proof of contact. We have evidence that the Maya used zero before the Greeks. So, by your logic, the Greeks must have stole the knowledge from the Maya. Makes sense.


[quote name='Harsh86_Patel' timestamp='1349700396' post='4492214']
10)OMG the justification that you gave for 'Horse Power' and the rejection for 'Goat powered' is very convincing to us in this age since we never used 'Goat power'.[/quote]

Oh come on! The Vedas don't speak of "goat power". They speak of actual chariots drawn by actual goats. If you can't understand the difference, then you are truly a lost cause.


[quote name='Harsh86_Patel' timestamp='1349700396' post='4492214']
11)I am not weaseling out on anything,i still maintain that as many people who wan't to 'read' the Vedas in original Sanskrit can read it and not only in India but even in foreign countries which are now having entire departments dedicated to such studies.
And like i said it the no. of people who can see images and interpret them will always be more then people who can 'read' a particular language.Countless generations of Indians till the present date can recognise and interpret images of vedic Gods and lores.If peoples ability to intrerpret pictures or images impresses you then you can find it all around the world in all cultures through out the world and is not a statement on current relevancy of their culture or a statement on their advance intelligence or the antiquity of their culture.So i don't understand the point you are trying to make regarding the interpretations of images etc?[/quote]

You still haven't answered my question: How many Indians can read the Vedas in their original Sanskrit?

Because in Australia, we have populations of people who are not only able to understand and interpret images left by their ancestors 40.000 years ago, they've been adding new and new images as the centuries rolled by. It is as if all the Indians could read the Vedas (I'm not insinuating that the Vedas are anywhere near 40.000 years old), and continued to write more chapters up until this very moment, in the same language and same style.

Accept it. Vedic culture is younger and less continuous than Australian Aboriginal culture.


[quote name='Harsh86_Patel' timestamp='1349700396' post='4492214']
12)Checking out if an article has been published in JIES.I will leave it at that,since you cast the doubt why don't you justify your doubt by showing it wasn't published in JIES until then i will considered the matter settled.[/quote]

Once again, you made the claim, you have the burden of proof. Why should I go out of limb to prove your statement?


[quote name='Harsh86_Patel' timestamp='1349700396' post='4492214']
13)Regarding your thesis,it is surprisingly represented on WIKI,you can call it the Negrito thesis
[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negrito"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negrito[/url]

[/quote]

Your point being? Even this article says that these people are probably the descendants of Proto-Australoids. So we are on the same page now, I presume, as you have been coming up with proofs of my claims for a while now.


[quote name='Harsh86_Patel' timestamp='1349700396' post='4492214']
14)Still waiting for gems of Andamanese culture or any lore or texts that can attest to the antiquity of their advance culture or intellect,please don't weasel out on this request since you claimed that their culture has to be older then the vedic culture.[/quote]

I presented you with ample genetic evidence. There are no texts, because they don't have a writing system and no claims were made to their advanced culture, because there is none. We also have linguistic evidence linking the Ongan languages with Proto-Austranesian. There is other circumstantial linguistic evidence available. It is a well-known fact of linguistics that over time, languages tend to diversify and places with older human inhabitance have more linguistic variety. For example, Europe has about 220-230 languages, for 740 million people. Kenya, on the other hand, has a population of 38 million, with 129 languages. In the 18th century, there were about 7000 Andamanese, and they spoke at least 13 completely different languages.

And, despite your vile supremacist rhetoric, they have no advanced intellect, as there is no intellectual difference between cultures. Their intellect is just as advanced as that of the Industry moguls of Mumbai, the hipsters of Portland or the Inuit whalers.

[quote name='Harsh86_Patel' timestamp='1349700396' post='4492214']
15)Brhman doesn't need to deal with antimatter,people who claimed it's existence need to deal with it and demonstrate it under laboratory conditions but if i remeber correctly antimatter would explode if it comes in contact with matter so it conveniently can never be observed or it's existence cannot be proved. According to vedic mythology there is a continous interaction between the manifest and the unmanifest.[/quote]

Once more, you are wrong. You're getting good at this. We have in fact observed antimatter on a number of occasions. Google PS210 Experiment for one example. And there is no interaction between matter and antimatter.


[quote name='Harsh86_Patel' timestamp='1349700396' post='4492214']
16)Strict format requirements for academic papers is probably a brain child of the intellectually vaccuous and a rigid biased mind set of traditional dogma, the practice is not really a hallmark of academic intelligence but probably a source of occupation for text editors and a sort of obsessive mental mastrubation for people who can't give importance to content but are more preoccupied by the presentation.Probably it is for people who can't really add to intellectual academic content and rather try to disguise their garbage by strict formatting as the meaning of the content is vaccuous and the only way the paper can earn a right of passage is due to it's formatting.[/quote]

The only way a paper can earn a right of passage is its content. But you can't present content objectively and clearly if you don't follow the clear and simple guidelines. If you can't remove yourself from the language, you also probably failed from removing yourself from the results.


[quote name='Harsh86_Patel' timestamp='1349700396' post='4492214']
17)[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Andamanese_people"]http://en.wikipedia....damanese_people[/url]
[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onge_people"]http://en.wikipedia....iki/Onge_people[/url]

Was trying to search for Andamanese culture/religion couldn't find anything.But the stupid suggestion of them migrating out of africa 50,000 years back really stood out but atleast they used words like 'seems to have' instead of has.And i was pretty astounded by the small population size and how can you determine a dang from such a small statistical group.[/quote]

You really don't get science, do you? First of all, science does not deal with absolutes. It uses "seems to have" instead of "has", because it interprets the available evidence and is open to error-correction. This is fairly basic stuff, you know, and apart from crackpots, no-one really takes up on it.

And then you bring in statistics and prove that you have no concept of yet another field. If you want to know something about a population of 100 million, 700 is a small statistical group. If you want to know something of a population of 700, then 700 covers the whole population and it is impossible to get a more correct result, if your methodology is correct, of course.

And please, once more, do tell me why the science of genetics has it ALL wrong, as opposed to you, who are, I suppose, a highly qualified expert in both anthropology and biology.


[quote name='Harsh86_Patel' timestamp='1349700396' post='4492214']
[size=3]Dont seem to be a very cultured or friendly sort.[/size]
[/quote]

Which means exactly nothing. The age of a culture has nothing to do with its friendliness or the technical developments of the members.


#27    Harsh86_Patel

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 07:33 AM

Since you put a random array of confused self defeating statements i will reply to the jist of your points:

1)It is you who initially equated people not using fire as a sign of them being ancient,i gave you an example of how that cannot be a reason to attest age of a culture,you probably have visited a slum with a Guide to take you around the bylanes and have no clue of what sort of ancient people stay in slums and especially the imports from rural villages,but i guess the guide forgot to show you that.I am friends with many people who have been living in slums since long amount of times and they often have seperate area for the new immigrants and those parts are usually nasty.You wont be able to differentiate their living conditions from tribals only it is worse for them because of the pollution and filth.

2)I don't have access to peer reviewed papers but i do have access to reports that are based on peer reviewed papers and i often check the sources.

3)The first time you have acknowledged the date of your supposed negrotid migration theory after a lot of coaxing from my side and you put it at around 65000 B.P. .You can have the date for the migration of negrotids but i am talking about culture.Can you attest the age of their culture or their cultural history?if you can't then no point talking about them.Your claims of their culture being older them the Vedic culture is based on your personal opinions and you wont be able to produce an ioata of proof (even circumstantial) for the same.Like is said that you can consider the whole of humanity as the most ancient culture but that really is a non-argument in this topic.

4)'Isolation based conservation' as opposed to 'Isolation based non-interference' as opposed to 'isolation based evolution' why they could have come up with their own stuff after being isolated which might be completely opposed to what they adhered to before being isolated.This again is a non-argument,as again you can't produce any circumstantial evidence also of the age of their so called culture.

5)I have no fight with the geneticists and their studies as they are empirical in nature but i do have a bone to pick with stupid migration theories propounded and inferred from these genetic studies by biased and prejudiced historians and linguists.This is what happens when you let a linguist etc draw conclusions based on genetic studies.The result of the scientific studies are not contested the infference drawn is contested.But again here we are not talking about the age of the culture of people so no point digressing on these imaginary migration theories.

6)Whether you like it or not ancient Greece is credited for the worlds first democracy though it was a simplistic form but underlying principle was the same as a modern complex democracy.You can deny the Greeks this acheivement but the world does not.It was important to point this out in this discussion as this is the sort of comparison i am trying to draw with modern concepts and ancient indian concepts.So you can try to ridicule these comparisons but this only demonstrates you prejudice and the tendency to not give credit to the ancients.By the way the first welfare state was established by Rama a part of the Vedic culture and mythology.

7)How many Indians can read the Vedas in original sanskrit? How many Europeans can read the Bible in original Hebrew?.What has this question got to do with anything related to our discussion.Are you suggesting that the relevancy of christian culture has changed with the translation of the bible into english or various other European languages?Is it a criterion for you to establish cultural contuinity that all people following the culture have to speak the original language?
Tamil speaking populace is a subset of the original Sanskrit speaking or Indo Aryan speaking populace,Agastya was a sanskrit speaking vedic rishi who has been credited with creating Tamil.I am only mentioning this since undue obsession of promoting an ancient language is often observed in "some" Tamilians.I can acknowledge the beauty of Sanskrit and can also preserve it in many technological ways but it is not necessary for me to learn it and speak it every day.Though i am also highly appreciative of Tamil and Sangam literature and credit them to be monumental acheivements as well.

8)Mayans could have created the Zero before the Greeks but as far as i know that Zero was first used by Ancient Indians along with so called 'Arabic numerals' that we still used and they are credited with it.If there is proof that the Mayans did it before Greeks then it should be put down in history books in the same order.
Did you know that Mayans tracked Venus (Shukra) and formulated their calendar (Shukracharya was the leader of the Asuras) and Ancient Indians tracked the movement of Jupiter (Brihaspati) and also based their calender on the same (Brihaspati was the leader of the Devas).
Lot of circumstantial evidence now exists to suggest that m any cultures that were thought to be previously isolated were not really isolated and the debate rages on.But you can definitely attest that the Greeks had a lot of contact with Ancient India.

9)I still find it funny that how can you provide genetic evidence for a Culture or a 'Way of life'.You are only tagging on the racial lines ever since the start,you probably equate imaginary races with imaginary cultures and it demonstrates a very classical Eurocentric racial mind set which is presently being propounded by a "few" seperatist Tamilians in India.

10)Regarding your commentary on anti matter,worry no more all you have to do is go to Wiki before you move on to more complex sources:
In particle physics, antimatter is material composed of antiparticles, which have the same mass as particles of ordinary matter but have opposite charge and quantum spin. Antiparticles bind with each other to form antimatter in the same way that normal particles bind to form normal matter. For example, a positron (the antiparticle of the electron, with symbol e+) and an antiproton (symbol p) can form an antihydrogen atom. Furthermore, mixing matter and antimatter can lead to the annihilation of both, in the same way that mixing antiparticles and particles does, thus giving rise to high-energy photons (gamma rays) or other particle–antiparticle pairs. The end result of antimatter meeting matter is a release of energy proportional to the mass as the mass-energy equivalence equation, E=mc2 shows.[1.


Please read the last sentence.

11)I would not like to digress on format requirements for research papers,but i don't beleive that only one format can be the right format to convey any written information in a paper and anyone who beleives so has to be obsessed with the format rather then the content.

12)Science doesn't deal with absolutes.Thank you very much for reaffirming this but historical interpretations of genetic population studies are stupid and are more related to the mental biases of the interpreter and not to science.

13)I am still waiting for you to elaborate on the Andamanese culture and from what i gathered they nearly killed the people who tried to contact them but one fellow was successful in interacting with them.So don't weasel out on this request.(My Prediction-all you would end up telling me is there were 10 tribes and speak different languages,but many acknowledge themselves to be Hindu all mentioned in Wiki).But i agree that the violent tendencies of these people is comparable to the "few LTTE terrorists" who are also Tamil speaking seperatists in India and i would like to call them people who are products of the British imperialistic historical propoganda.(The imaginary Aryan Dravidian divide and alienation of South Indian Dravidian from the North Indian European descent Aryans was actively promoted as a divide and rule policy of the British empire)

14)You want western medicine proponents to acknowledge Ayurveda in mainstream papers?But to each his own.The only reason i mentioned Ayurveda is since it is complex and thoroughly documented Medical system that was formulated in antiquity.An organised medical system was my point.

15)You can adhere to your translations of the Vedas but let me tell you that if you do not acknowledge symbolism in ancient texts then your understanding of them will suffer,this is true not only of the Vedas but any ancient texts that you try to translate and understand.The advantage with the Vedas is that the culture is still present hence you should rely on translations made by the people still ascribing to the culture rather then foreign translations.
So if you are just going to throw non-arguments and self defeating statements then there is no point of this discussion.

Edited by Harsh86_Patel, 09 October 2012 - 07:59 AM.


#28    Clobhair-cean

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 11:19 AM

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 09 October 2012 - 07:33 AM, said:

Since you put a random array of confused self defeating statements i will reply to the jist of your points:

1)It is you who initially equated people not using fire as a sign of them being ancient,i gave you an example of how that cannot be a reason to attest age of a culture,you probably have visited a slum with a Guide to take you around the bylanes and have no clue of what sort of ancient people stay in slums and especially the imports from rural villages,but i guess the guide forgot to show you that.I am friends with many people who have been living in slums since long amount of times and they often have seperate area for the new immigrants and those parts are usually nasty.You wont be able to differentiate their living conditions from tribals only it is worse for them because of the pollution and filth.

Um, no. I went into the heart of each and every slum I visited, with the help of anthropologists working with the communities and talked to many inhabitants. No ancient people live in any of the slums. In fact, I also visited Kani communities in the Kalakkad Mundathurai forest, and they were also remarkably modern, even though they were as rural as you get in mainland India. You can't compare them with hunter-gatherers.

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 09 October 2012 - 07:33 AM, said:

2)I don't have access to peer reviewed papers but i do have access to reports that are based on peer reviewed papers and i often check the sources.

If I have access, you have access.

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 09 October 2012 - 07:33 AM, said:

3)The first time you have acknowledged the date of your supposed negrotid migration theory after a lot of coaxing from my side and you put it at around 65000 B.P. .You can have the date for the migration of negrotids but i am talking about culture.Can you attest the age of their culture or their cultural history?if you can't then no point talking about them.Your claims of their culture being older them the Vedic culture is based on your personal opinions and you wont be able to produce an ioata of proof (even circumstantial) for the same.Like is said that you can consider the whole of humanity as the most ancient culture but that really is a non-argument in this topic.

So, you agree that the people are that old, and that genetic information is valid. I'll remember this. Then, culture. We know that these people have been isolated for longer than almost any other population on earth. What comes from that? No invasions, no immigration and therefore: a continuous evolution of their original culture. If you think about it for a sec, it's kind of obvious.

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 09 October 2012 - 07:33 AM, said:

4)'Isolation based conservation' as opposed to 'Isolation based non-interference' as opposed to 'isolation based evolution' why they could have come up with their own stuff after being isolated which might be completely opposed to what they adhered to before being isolated.This again is a non-argument,as again you can't produce any circumstantial evidence also of the age of their so called culture.

Tell me one single people that, when left to its own devices and with no outside interference or contact, threw out their original culture and invented something from scratch. It does not happen. If there was no outside contact, the culture is as old as the people.

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 09 October 2012 - 07:33 AM, said:

5)I have no fight with the geneticists and their studies as they are empirical in nature but i do have a bone to pick with stupid migration theories propounded and inferred from these genetic studies by biased and prejudiced historians and linguists.This is what happens when you let a linguist etc draw conclusions based on genetic studies.The result of the scientific studies are not contested the infference drawn is contested.But again here we are not talking about the age of the culture of people so no point digressing on these imaginary migration theories.

But scientific studies ARE constantly contested, that's the point of science. I know that you are so much more knowledgeable then all the linguists and historians in the world, but if three independent sciences have evidence that point to one conclusion, in this case the migration patterns of early humans, then there is probably something to it. Or they are all lying, and you (plus the few crackpots you use as sources, like Fomenko) are the only keepers of the sacred truth. Which is more possible?

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 09 October 2012 - 07:33 AM, said:

6)Whether you like it or not ancient Greece is credited for the worlds first democracy though it was a simplistic form but underlying principle was the same as a modern complex democracy.You can deny the Greeks this acheivement but the world does not.It was important to point this out in this discussion as this is the sort of comparison i am trying to draw with modern concepts and ancient indian concepts.So you can try to ridicule these comparisons but this only demonstrates you prejudice and the tendency to not give credit to the ancients.By the way the first welfare state was established by Rama a part of the Vedic culture and mythology.

You are once again dragging something into this debate that makes no sense. Yes, the greeks invented democracy, no-one disputes that. I thought your point was that the base concepts of Greek and modern democracy are the same, just like Vedic "science" and modern science. This is demonstrably false, as the underlying concept of democracy is much more clearly defined than whatever you read into the Vedas.

And really, welfare state? Equal opportunity (one of the core principles of a welfare state) in ancient India? Lol. Just lol. You do realise that a king can not institute a welfare state, as aristocracy itself flies in the face of the other main principle of a welfare state, the equitable distribution of wealth.

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 09 October 2012 - 07:33 AM, said:

7)How many Indians can read the Vedas in original sanskrit? How many Europeans can read the Bible in original Hebrew?.What has this question got to do with anything related to our discussion.Are you suggesting that the relevancy of christian culture has changed with the translation of the bible into english or various other European languages?Is it a criterion for you to establish cultural contuinity that all people following the culture have to speak the original language?
Tamil speaking populace is a subset of the original Sanskrit speaking or Indo Aryan speaking populace,Agastya was a sanskrit speaking vedic rishi who has been credited with creating Tamil.I am only mentioning this since undue obsession of promoting an ancient language is often observed in "some" Tamilians.I can acknowledge the beauty of Sanskrit and can also preserve it in many technological ways but it is not necessary for me to learn it and speak it every day.Though i am also highly appreciative of Tamil and Sangam literature and credit them to be monumental acheivements as well.

Not many. But European Culture is not a continuation of ancient Jewish culture. It has very little to do with it, actually. The vast majority of religious Jews, who are the direct continuation of that culture, on the other hand, can still read the Hebrew Bible perfectly fine.

By the way the New Testament (eg. the Christian part of the Bible) was written in Greek. At least try to know what you are bringing to an argument.

And I truly don't know why are you trying to drag Tamil into this discussion. But, by the way, just a small correction: Agastya is not credited with creating Tamil. He's credited with creating Tamil literature, the language existed before him. But I won't go into this discussion with a Hindi fundamentalist.

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 09 October 2012 - 07:33 AM, said:

8)Mayans could have created the Zero before the Greeks but as far as i know that Zero was first used by Ancient Indians along with so called 'Arabic numerals' that we still used and they are credited with it.If there is proof that the Mayans did it before Greeks then it should be put down in history books in the same order.
Did you know that Mayans tracked Venus (Shukra) and formulated their calendar (Shukracharya was the leader of the Asuras) and Ancient Indians tracked the movement of Jupiter (Brihaspati) and also based their calender on the same (Brihaspati was the leader of the Devas).
Lot of circumstantial evidence now exists to suggest that m any cultures that were thought to be previously isolated were not really isolated and the debate rages on.But you can definitely attest that the Greeks had a lot of contact with Ancient India.

Yes, the Mayans and Indians tracked the same celestial objects. They were looking at the same sky after all. I'm sure they both knew about the Sun too. What a coincidence!

Why can you definitely attest that there was contact between India and ancient Greece before Alexander The Great's Camping? (Which Aristotle's Metaphysics most probably predates by decades)

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 09 October 2012 - 07:33 AM, said:

9)I still find it funny that how can you provide genetic evidence for a Culture or a 'Way of life'.You are only tagging on the racial lines ever since the start,you probably equate imaginary races with imaginary cultures and it demonstrates a very classical Eurocentric racial mind set which is presently being propounded by a "few" seperatist Tamilians in India.

No I don't. In this specific case, when we talk about a long-isolated people, we can safely assume, for reasons I cited above, that their culture is also ancient. Genetics says nothing about culture. Genetics and history, in certain circumstances, are a different matter.

Yet again with the Tamils. You do have a beef with those guys, do you?

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 09 October 2012 - 07:33 AM, said:

10)Regarding your commentary on anti matter,worry no more all you have to do is go to Wiki before you move on to more complex sources:
In particle physics, antimatter is material composed of antiparticles, which have the same mass as particles of ordinary matter but have opposite charge and quantum spin. Antiparticles bind with each other to form antimatter in the same way that normal particles bind to form normal matter. For example, a positron (the antiparticle of the electron, with symbol e+) and an antiproton (symbol p) can form an antihydrogen atom. Furthermore, mixing matter and antimatter can lead to the annihilation of both, in the same way that mixing antiparticles and particles does, thus giving rise to high-energy photons (gamma rays) or other particle–antiparticle pairs. The end result of antimatter meeting matter is a release of energy proportional to the mass as the mass-energy equivalence equation, E=mc2 shows.[1.

Please read the last sentence.

And? This general description of antimatter has no bearing on this debate.

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 09 October 2012 - 07:33 AM, said:

11)I would not like to digress on format requirements for research papers,but i don't beleive that only one format can be the right format to convey any written information in a paper and anyone who beleives so has to be obsessed with the format rather then the content.

And that's a good clue towards understanding why you have such a hard time dealing with scientific concepts.

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 09 October 2012 - 07:33 AM, said:

12)Science doesn't deal with absolutes.Thank you very much for reaffirming this but historical interpretations of genetic population studies are stupid and are more related to the mental biases of the interpreter and not to science.

Nope, they are related to data. Pure data. You know, that's what science is about. But please elaborate why modern genetics is "stupid", and why you know much better than tens of thousands of researchers who spent many years earning their Phds.

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 09 October 2012 - 07:33 AM, said:

13)I am still waiting for you to elaborate on the Andamanese culture and from what i gathered they nearly killed the people who tried to contact them but one fellow was successful in interacting with them.So don't weasel out on this request.(My Prediction-all you would end up telling me is there were 10 tribes and speak different languages,but many acknowledge themselves to be Hindu all mentioned in Wiki).But i agree that the violent tendencies of these people is comparable to the "few LTTE terrorists" who are also Tamil speaking seperatists in India and i would like to call them people who are products of the British imperialistic historical propoganda.(The imaginary Aryan Dravidian divide and alienation of South Indian Dravidian from the North Indian European descent Aryans was actively promoted as a divide and rule policy of the British empire)

We know a few crucial things. That they are hunter-gatherers and that until modern contact, they did not master fire. Just like the other, provenly ancient culture, the Aboriginal Australians. Gee, I wonder if there's a connection. They have no written language. Some of their languages show a correlation with Proto-Austranesian (link), which together with the genetic evidence that even you stopped disputing, tell us that they've been there for a very long time. Oh wait, I'm sorry, all the linguists are stupid. Never mind. You know, it's mighty convenient to declare that everyone else in the world is just plain wrong, especially the experts, but that should make you think that maybe it's not them, but you.

And why you keep bringing up Tamils, I honestly do not know.

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 09 October 2012 - 07:33 AM, said:

14)You want western medicine proponents to acknowledge Ayurveda in mainstream papers?But to each his own.The only reason i mentioned Ayurveda is since it is complex and thoroughly documented Medical system that was formulated in antiquity.An organised medical system was my point.

Yes, because if it was good at curing or preventing diseases, it would have been incorporated into science-based medicine by now.

An organised medical system that does not work is of no use.

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 09 October 2012 - 07:33 AM, said:

15)You can adhere to your translations of the Vedas but let me tell you that if you do not acknowledge symbolism in ancient texts then your understanding of them will suffer,this is true not only of the Vedas but any ancient texts that you try to translate and understand.The advantage with the Vedas is that the culture is still present hence you should rely on translations made by the people still ascribing to the culture rather then foreign translations.
So if you are just going to throw non-arguments and self defeating statements then there is no point of this discussion.

I have no idea why you included this here. Makes no sense.


#29    Harsh86_Patel

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 01:23 PM

1)Good you went to slums in one particular state with anthropologists,you should have tried social workers and they could have probably highlighted the deplorable social/economical/technological conditions of so many slum dwellers.In mumbai you can find a wide variety of people from the most rural villages (where there is no electricity/water supply/or cement structures) living in the slums.

2)I am surprised that you find it difficult to believe that isolated "small" populations can forget their own original culture and invent a new one especially if we are talking about 65000 years.Also at some point of time all homo sapiens did have a common origin how do you suggest that such a variety of different cultures developed without throwing out the old and inventing the new?.Either ways you still fail to put forward any information on their culture as it is now or any attestation to it's age.You yourself claimed in another post that cultural practices/ideas can emerge seperately in seperate cultures independant of each other so whats to prevent you from beleiving that people can invent or give rise to a completely different culture over a period of 65000 years.In either scenario if you can put forward some information on Andamanese culture then we can also hopefully draw some similes between them and the Vedic people.(Them not knowing how to make fire is the only thing you mention).

3)How can you state definitively that the andamanese culture was perfectly isolated,just because no foreigners came and mated with them?This is a prime example of stupid assumptions made by linguists and historians using perfectly empirical genetic data.Looking at the size of this population it could have very well been 10 men and 10 women who spawned the whole population.In India the practice of strictly marrying in one's own community is still practiced by many groups but the population has increased so much hence intermingling couldn't have been prevented.Probably the Andamanese also believed in the same and due to their small sized population they could have maintained genetic isolation i.e no mating with outsiders.This is no statement on their culture or whether they did have any cultural exchanges.For all i know and care 10 illiterate(=people who didn't know much of their actual culture) pairs "could" have been shipwrecked or exiled and isolated and spawned the small population inventing their own cultural practices borne out of their ignorance,either from India or Africa.

4)Migrations did happen but fallacious interpretations by historians and linguists of genetic data also happens.Prejudice and bias also acts on historians and linguists.

5)So you don't seem to have an issue in acknowledging that the ancient Greeks did invent democracy even after acknowledging the large amount of differences between the original and current versions of democracy but you can't share similar acknowledgement for concepts spawned or first broached by other ancient cultures.
And yes i said welfare state and it has been very well described in the Epic Ramayana,what makes you think a Monarchy can't give rise to a welfare state?Every great Hindu king believed in the concept of a welfare state taking inspiration from Ramayana and RamaRajya and establishing a welfare state was a necessity for a Hindu king to be called Great until invasions from foreign hordes of greedy barbarians,your notions of aristocracy are also Eurocentric (though you did ignore Arthur).But you can keep on dismissing concepts out of the Vedas if it satisfies you.

6)When you talk about the Bible i feel you are unable to comprehend simple things.The typical Christian bible comprises of the Old testament and the New Testament and both are equally Christian though the old testament was isolated for the Jews, and i was talking of Christians.There are direct continuations of the Vedic culture and there are a lot of people who read the Vedas in the original Sanskrit in India as well as in other countries.There are entire institutions and gurukuls that are dedicated to the Vedas and Sanskrit.The question you should be asking is that how many people can understand the Vedas? since any person who can read Hindi (national language of India) can read Sanskrit since the script is essentially the same.But your lame duck statement of many people can read the Hebrew bible in Europe settles the question you asked me i guess.
Agstya was a vedic rishi and was the one who is credited with inventing Tamil and spawning sangam literature,Agstya in no way authored all of Sangam literature as you suggested.It is very strange that when i talk of Vedic culture which is common to all Indians and so is Sanskrit you label me a 'Hindi' fundamentalist,atleast say 'Hindu' Fundamentalist which would be your intended label for me.It is strange how we label people who talk or praise Vedic culture to be Hindu fundamentalist when we have never accused anyone of being a Greek fundamentalist or even European fundamentalist but nevermind.Using 'Hindu fundamnetalist' is the easiest way of obstructing discussions of this sort and used by many western acadamicians so i won't single you out,though there are a bunch of brainwashed Indians who would also probably call me the same.

7)You thing of suspected geographical isolation of a small group of people to be some magical preserving principle for their culture,a culture which you provide no information on or any circumstantial evidence of the date of their culture.I never had any issue with Tamilians and i was very careful in highlighting words like "few" "some" but you conveniently ignored those in insinuating that i have an issue with them.

8)Do you know that original Vedic culture was also not written i.e. didn't have a script.It was spread by word of mouth but the Vedas (content) is still dated by mainstream according to when it was suspected to have been penned down.So not having a written script or written attestation will pretty much disqualify any objective dating of Andamanese culture by mainstream historians,not something i would accept but sadly it is still the case.If not having a script is a similarity between cultures for you then you can also include the original Vedic culture in the list.

9)I put the description of anti matter to highlight my statement that yes matter and anti-matter do interact in an explosive fashion.

10)I never disputed genetic studies in the first place,what i disputed was the inference drawn by stupid linguists/historians(not a universal statement for all) from this Genetic data.I have said this same thing so many times i am not saying it again.So i said some linguists/historians are stupid and "never" said "modern genetics" is "stupid".I keep on refering to "some" Tamils because many arguments given by you are used by "some" Tamils for harboring seperatist agendas.
Will give an example,
Genetics can probably highlight with some accuracy when two different geographical population stopped mating with each other,thats it.....who came from where and went where are all assumptions made by linguists/historians playing fill in the blanks.

11)Your comment on Ayurveda is again very shallow since you can only see a Medicinal/Healing system with western medicine (allopathy) as an index and i have tried to show you many examples of preventive practices in Ayurveda that do not have a parallel in western medicine which begins with the onset of disease.Principles of hygeine and a disciplined lifestyle having a strict daily routine have been described in Ayurveda in ancient times as a part of being healthy and fighting disease.But nevermind since you cannot draw a simile it pointless to highlight a concept to you.Having an organised medical system irrespective of your current notions of it's effectivity is also an acheivement.

14)The Mayans following Venus to map their calendar and the Indians following Jupiter to do the same is a direct correlation with specific information mentioned in Vedic culture,though they didn't call them Mayans but called them Asuras(those who follow venus as their guru or pathfinder).

13)Your assertion that if the Vedas say 'a goat drawn cart' it has to be taken literally is very amusing.


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Posted 09 October 2012 - 03:41 PM

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 09 October 2012 - 01:23 PM, said:

1)Good you went to slums in one particular state with anthropologists,you should have tried social workers and they could have probably highlighted the deplorable social/economical/technological conditions of so many slum dwellers.In mumbai you can find a wide variety of people from the most rural villages (where there is no electricity/water supply/or cement structures) living in the slums.

I am well aware of the deplorable social/economic/technological conditions of the slum dwellers. But poverty and primitiveness are not the same, that's what you don't seem to understand.

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 09 October 2012 - 01:23 PM, said:

2)I am surprised that you find it difficult to believe that isolated "small" populations can forget their own original culture and invent a new one especially if we are talking about 65000 years.Also at some point of time all homo sapiens did have a common origin how do you suggest that such a variety of different cultures developed without throwing out the old and inventing the new?.Either ways you still fail to put forward any information on their culture as it is now or any attestation to it's age.You yourself claimed in another post that cultural practices/ideas can emerge seperately in seperate cultures independant of each other so whats to prevent you from beleiving that people can invent or give rise to a completely different culture over a period of 65000 years.In either scenario if you can put forward some information on Andamanese culture then we can also hopefully draw some similes between them and the Vedic people.(Them not knowing how to make fire is the only thing you mention).

You know how the various cultures of the world emerged? Through interaction with each other. Contemporary English culture, for example is the result of the British Celts taking over from whoever settled the islands after the Ice Age, followed by Roman, Gaelic, Anglo-Saxon, Norse and Norman French (+Latin). Then it all got messed up and became a mishmash of European, Asian, African, American cultures. In contrast, the Icelanders, who were in relative isolation (not nearly as complete as the Andamanese), still speak a language that's practically Old Norse with words added for new inventions and their culture is the closest we have to that of their ancestors who first arrived to the island a bit more than a thousand years ago. Isolation conserves. That's why all the known uncontacted peoples seem to live under prehistoric conditions.

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 09 October 2012 - 01:23 PM, said:

3)How can you state definitively that the andamanese culture was perfectly isolated,just because no foreigners came and mated with them?This is a prime example of stupid assumptions made by linguists and historians using perfectly empirical genetic data.Looking at the size of this population it could have very well been 10 men and 10 women who spawned the whole population.In India the practice of strictly marrying in one's own community is still practiced by many groups but the population has increased so much hence intermingling couldn't have been prevented.Probably the Andamanese also believed in the same and due to their small sized population they could have maintained genetic isolation i.e no mating with outsiders.This is no statement on their culture or whether they did have any cultural exchanges.For all i know and care 10 illiterate(=people who didn't know much of their actual culture) pairs "could" have been shipwrecked or exiled and isolated and spawned the small population inventing their own cultural practices borne out of their ignorance,either from India or Africa.

No. No-one knew about these people. Up until the 18th century, there was little to no outside interaction with these peoples, who were referred to as brutish cannibals by all accounts. They weren't up for socialising. They were not 10 illiterate (even illiterate people knew how to make a bloody fire in the past. It's not rocket science) people, because then we would find genetic traces of their ancestry. We don't. If they were shipwrecked Indonesians, for example, we would know that they came from Indonesia, because their genetic makeup would be closer to Indonesians and not Ancestral South Indians and their language would not be related to Proto-Austronesian.

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 09 October 2012 - 01:23 PM, said:

4)Migrations did happen but fallacious interpretations by historians and linguists of genetic data also happens.Prejudice and bias also acts on historians and linguists.

Yes, it happens, and I'm sure you can find all the since thoroughly refuted turn of the century scientists you want. Contemporary migration theories are supported by historical, archaeological, genetic, ethnographic and linguistic data. Either all these fields are in a vast conspiracy, or you are wrong. I would guess it's the latter.

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 09 October 2012 - 01:23 PM, said:

5)So you don't seem to have an issue in acknowledging that the ancient Greeks did invent democracy even after acknowledging the large amount of differences between the original and current versions of democracy but you can't share similar acknowledgement for concepts spawned or first broached by other ancient cultures..

Yes, absolutely. Some concepts were invented a long time ago. But not string theory, elemental particles, mechanical flight or any of the nonsense you claim to be found within the Vedas.

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 09 October 2012 - 01:23 PM, said:

And yes i said welfare state and it has been very well described in the Epic Ramayana,what makes you think a Monarchy can't give rise to a welfare state?Every great Hindu king believed in the concept of a welfare state taking inspiration from Ramayana and RamaRajya and establishing a welfare state was a necessity for a Hindu king to be called Great until invasions from foreign hordes of greedy barbarians,your notions of aristocracy are also Eurocentric (though you did ignore Arthur).But you can keep on dismissing concepts out of the Vedas if it satisfies you.

Yes, a Monarchy can not give rise to a welfare state, as it necessitates the existence of an unequal distribution of resources. How did Hindu kings establish the equality of opportunity for all their subjects (you do realise that the mere existence of a king-subject relationship destroys the possibility of equal opportunity and therefore the possibility of a welfare state).

How would you define a welfare state?

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 09 October 2012 - 01:23 PM, said:

6)When you talk about the Bible i feel you are unable to comprehend simple things.The typical Christian bible comprises of the Old testament and the New Testament and both are equally Christian though the old testament was isolated for the Jews, and i was talking of Christians.There are direct continuations of the Vedic culture and there are a lot of people who read the Vedas in the original Sanskrit in India as well as in other countries.There are entire institutions and gurukuls that are dedicated to the Vedas and Sanskrit.The question you should be asking is that how many people can understand the Vedas? since any person who can read Hindi (national language of India) can read Sanskrit since the script is essentially the same.But your lame duck statement of many people can read the Hebrew bible in Europe settles the question you asked me i guess.

How many people in India can read the Vedas in Sanskrit? Still waiting. I am now curious, because you obviously can't or won't produce a simple number. I wonder why.

European culture is NOT based on the Bible. It is an amalgamation of Greek, Pagan, Jewish and Christian thought, and whatever else came after. The Hebrew Biblie isn't all that important for non-Jews. But all this does not matter, as we aren't comparing the Vedas to Europe, but to a culture (the Aboriginal Australians), some members of which have an unbroken line of cultural continuity that goes back at least 40.000 years.


View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 09 October 2012 - 01:23 PM, said:

Agstya was a vedic rishi and was the one who is credited with inventing Tamil and spawning sangam literature,Agstya in no way authored all of Sangam literature as you suggested.It is very strange that when i talk of Vedic culture which is common to all Indians and so is Sanskrit you label me a 'Hindi' fundamentalist,atleast say 'Hindu' Fundamentalist which would be your intended label for me.It is strange how we label people who talk or praise Vedic culture to be Hindu fundamentalist when we have never accused anyone of being a Greek fundamentalist or even European fundamentalist but nevermind.Using 'Hindu fundamnetalist' is the easiest way of obstructing discussions of this sort and used by many western acadamicians so i won't single you out,though there are a bunch of brainwashed Indians who would also probably call me the same.


No, I wanted to call you a Hindi fundamentalist, as you perpetuate North Indian supremacist untruths and deny the existence of South Indian culture and peoples. But I will leave it at that, because I'm not debating politics or vicious ideologies.

And WTF? People are labelled Greek and European fundamentalists all the time! Give me a break.


View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 09 October 2012 - 01:23 PM, said:

7)You thing of suspected geographical isolation of a small group of people to be some magical preserving principle for their culture,a culture which you provide no information on or any circumstantial evidence of the date of their culture.I never had any issue with Tamilians and i was very careful in highlighting words like "few" "some" but you conveniently ignored those in insinuating that i have an issue with them.


It is not magical, it is natural. And the evidence is not circumstantial, as we know that they live in prehistoric conditions, we know that they lived in isolation for around 50-70000 years, and we know that they are linguistically related to other ancient groups, but not to more modern populations.


View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 09 October 2012 - 01:23 PM, said:

8)Do you know that original Vedic culture was also not written i.e. didn't have a script.It was spread by word of mouth but the Vedas (content) is still dated by mainstream according to when it was suspected to have been penned down.So not having a written script or written attestation will pretty much disqualify any objective dating of Andamanese culture by mainstream historians,not something i would accept but sadly it is still the case.If not having a script is a similarity between cultures for you then you can also include the original Vedic culture in the list.


It is not a similarity between cultures, but having a writing system entails a certain level of development that would arise with commerce or historiography, in most cases (though there are exceptions, like the Celts)


View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 09 October 2012 - 01:23 PM, said:

9)I put the description of anti matter to highlight my statement that yes matter and anti-matter do interact in an explosive fashion.


Not in nature. If it did , there wouldn't be any antimatter left, because there is more matter than antimatter in the universe and when mixed (artificially), they destroy each other.


View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 09 October 2012 - 01:23 PM, said:


Genetics can probably highlight with some accuracy when two different geographical population stopped mating with each other,thats it.....who came from where and went where are all assumptions made by linguists/historians playing fill in the blanks.

Nope. For example, let's take a simplified case. if we have a hypothetical population that has markers that links them with the Ainu of Hokkaido, Siberian peoples, the Inuit and the Lakota and now they live around modern-day Chicago, then we can infer that their ancestors migrated from around Hokkaido, through the Bering Sea and into North America. We can then correlate that with archaeological, ethnographic and linguistic evidence and if the original, genetic thesis is supported by the other fields then voilá, we have a migration theory. But the core of the theory came from genetics, from the intermixing with peoples that live along the hypothetical route.



View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 09 October 2012 - 01:23 PM, said:

11)Your comment on Ayurveda is again very shallow since you can only see a Medicinal/Healing system with western medicine (allopathy) as an index and i have tried to show you many examples of preventive practices in Ayurveda that do not have a parallel in western medicine which begins with the onset of disease.Principles of hygeine and a disciplined lifestyle having a strict daily routine have been described in Ayurveda in ancient times as a part of being healthy and fighting disease.But nevermind since you cannot draw a simile it pointless to highlight a concept to you.Having an organised medical system irrespective of your current notions of it's effectivity is also an acheivement.


It's not my notions of efficacy. It's evidence-based. There is no evidence for the vast majority of Ayurveda's claims. Of course, hygiene and exercise help. But you can reach this by trial and error. Without the germ theory of disease, it's all up to magic and does not stem from understanding, just observation. and Ayurveda does not include this most crucial medical discovery.


View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 09 October 2012 - 01:23 PM, said:

14)The Mayans following Venus to map their calendar and the Indians following Jupiter to do the same is a direct correlation with specific information mentioned in Vedic culture,though they didn't call them Mayans but called them Asuras(those who follow venus as their guru or pathfinder).


Wait, now you say that the Vedic people knew about the Mayans? that is sooo rich! And based on what, that there is a mention of some people who follow the brightest object in the night sky? It clearly couldn't have been some other people nearby, it HAD to be the Mayans. Only they have the ability to look up at night.

Not that the Mayans only used a Venus-based calendar or that said calendar was the most important for them.


View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 09 October 2012 - 01:23 PM, said:

13)Your assertion that if the Vedas say 'a goat drawn cart' it has to be taken literally is very amusing.


If it is amusing, I wonder what would be the term for the interpretation of "goat-drawn cart" as "jet plane". Oh, I know. Lunacy. That's it.

BTW, have you noticed how you have steadily shifted the debate from the wobbly claims that there is any connection between the Vedas and string theory, the Higgs Boson and mechanical flight to attacking a side comment I made that the Andamanese are most probably a much older than Vedic culture. Well played, sir. Not that I am not glad to debate anything, but this is a fairly lame tactic.





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