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Why not Islam?


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#16    Sir Wearer of Hats

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 10:41 PM

View Postand then, on 22 September 2012 - 07:43 PM, said:

I agree.  And I also agree it was a crime against the US what Israel did on that occasion, but it also points out their will to go to ANY length to survive as a nation and that is what most do not believe for some reason.  It's as though some believe that Israel would get cold feet about being obliterated in a war.  I don't believe they'll hesitate in the slightest to nuke an enemy who they feel is actually going to destroy them.

Does this "they have the right to do whatever is necessary to survive" stance extend to other nations or is it just Israel? Because given that millions of North Koreans are starving, I think they'd LOVE a chance to have another shot at the fertile soil of the South. Or Iran, given that the full weight of America is slowly being brought to bear on it must be feeling threatened. Or the Palestinians who, at least in their own minds and in the rhetoric of their supporters, are the victims of Israeli oppression.
Do they have the right to do whatever is necessary to survive?

I must not fear. Fear is the Mind-Killer. It is the little death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and to move through me. And when it is gone I will turn the inner eye to see it's path.
When the fear is gone, there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.

#17    Simbul

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 10:47 PM

USS Liberty was most likely an accident considering Israel never destroyed the vessel and even sent rescue ships to help the Americans who survived.

If they had intended to destroy the ship they would have. People who cry about USS Liberty frequently leave the last part out. Israel had a lot of friendly fire incidents during the 6 day war from their airforce, if I recall they even bombed their own tank column during that war. They kept their pilots in the air for a long time without any rest.

Edited by Gravitorbox, 22 September 2012 - 10:56 PM.

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#18    and then

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 12:28 AM

View PostWearer of Hats, on 22 September 2012 - 10:41 PM, said:

Does this "they have the right to do whatever is necessary to survive" stance extend to other nations or is it just Israel? Because given that millions of North Koreans are starving, I think they'd LOVE a chance to have another shot at the fertile soil of the South. Or Iran, given that the full weight of America is slowly being brought to bear on it must be feeling threatened. Or the Palestinians who, at least in their own minds and in the rhetoric of their supporters, are the victims of Israeli oppression.
Do they have the right to do whatever is necessary to survive?
All people do.  In the first two instances it is the governments of those countries doing the threat to their survival - not an outside entity.  If you really are making the case that there is another nation that is as apt to be attacked and if defeated have it's citizens actually annihilated then go for it but I think you know that's lame.  I think the major disconnect (I hope) with those who chant fairness about Israel is that they cannot believe that her enemies would actually kill all her survivors.  To those I ask - Who do you think would help them?  If you want to see what an Arab army is capable I direct your attention to Houla and Aleppo and a dozen other cities where the blood of Syrian children is splattered on the walls of homes.  If they have no remorse to do this to an Arab "enemy"  where do you think the mercy will be found for the Apes and Pigs Muhammad wrote about?

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#19    Sir Wearer of Hats

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 07:38 AM

Israel is protected by God's sacred promise according to you. So who's going to protect them? God.
Now that their protection is out of the equation, I think we can hold them to standards deserving of God's people.

I must not fear. Fear is the Mind-Killer. It is the little death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and to move through me. And when it is gone I will turn the inner eye to see it's path.
When the fear is gone, there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.

#20    Eldorado

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 01:13 PM

View PostGravitorbox, on 22 September 2012 - 10:47 PM, said:

USS Liberty was most likely an accident considering Israel never destroyed the vessel and even sent rescue ships to help the Americans who survived.

If they had intended to destroy the ship they would have. People who cry about USS Liberty frequently leave the last part out. Israel had a lot of friendly fire incidents during the 6 day war from their airforce, if I recall they even bombed their own tank column during that war. They kept their pilots in the air for a long time without any rest.

Those "people who cry" about the USS Liberty?
Do you mean the veterans of the attack, the families of the thirty four murdered American boys or just everyone who disagrees with you?

"In an ongoing effort to reveal the truth about the attack, the USS Liberty Veterans Association has filed with the Secretary of the Army in the manner prescribed by law a detailed, fully documented Report of War Crimes describing the circumstances of the attack on our ship and evidence that it was a crime under international law. In accordance with international law and treaties, the United States is obligated to investigate the allegations. So far, the United States has declined even to acknowledge that the report has been filed." The full text of the report can be found at: http://www.gtr5.com/...e/warcrimes.pdf

Heres a list of some of those who cried foul.
http://www.ussliberty.org/index2.html

Here is just two from that list.

"To suggest that they [the IDF] couldn't identify the ship is ... ridiculous. ... Anybody who could not identify the Liberty could not tell the difference between the White House and the Washington Monument."
  -- Admiral Thomas Moorer, Chief of Naval Operations and later Chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff

"Never before in the history of the United States Navy has a Navy Board of Inquiry ignored the testimony of American military eyewitnesses and taken, on faith, the word of their attackers."
  -- Captain Richard F. Kiepfer, Medical Corps, US Navy (retired), USS Liberty Survivor  

The Truth hurts at times, does it not?

Edited by Eldorado, 23 September 2012 - 01:48 PM.


#21    lightly

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 08:56 PM

I think it goes all the way back to the crusades.

Important:  The above may contain errors, inaccuracies, omissions, and other limitations.

#22    Simbul

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 10:29 PM

View PostEldorado, on 23 September 2012 - 01:13 PM, said:

Those "people who cry" about the USS Liberty?
Do you mean the veterans of the attack, the families of the thirty four murdered American boys or just everyone who disagrees with you?

"In an ongoing effort to reveal the truth about the attack, the USS Liberty Veterans Association has filed with the Secretary of the Army in the manner prescribed by law a detailed, fully documented Report of War Crimes describing the circumstances of the attack on our ship and evidence that it was a crime under international law. In accordance with international law and treaties, the United States is obligated to investigate the allegations. So far, the United States has declined even to acknowledge that the report has been filed." The full text of the report can be found at: http://www.gtr5.com/...e/warcrimes.pdf

Heres a list of some of those who cried foul.
http://www.ussliberty.org/index2.html

Here is just two from that list.

"To suggest that they [the IDF] couldn't identify the ship is ... ridiculous. ... Anybody who could not identify the Liberty could not tell the difference between the White House and the Washington Monument."
  -- Admiral Thomas Moorer, Chief of Naval Operations and later Chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff

"Never before in the history of the United States Navy has a Navy Board of Inquiry ignored the testimony of American military eyewitnesses and taken, on faith, the word of their attackers."
  -- Captain Richard F. Kiepfer, Medical Corps, US Navy (retired), USS Liberty Survivor  

The Truth hurts at times, does it not?
This is all completely irrelevant. You didn't address the fact that the USS Liberty was never destroyed and the Israelis sent rescue for the survivors when they found out it was an American ship. Are you DENYING that happened, or do you have an explanation as to how that fits into your narrative that they did it on purpose?

"Everything we did was criticized. For about thirty years we lived with the world against us, accusing us of things we didn't do!"

    - Ian Douglas Smith

#23    and then

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 12:39 AM

View PostWearer of Hats, on 23 September 2012 - 07:38 AM, said:

Israel is protected by God's sacred promise according to you. So who's going to protect them? God.
Now that their protection is out of the equation, I think we can hold them to standards deserving of God's people.
Israel will never be removed again from the land nor extincted as is the wish of their enemies but that doesn't mean He plans to show up with air power :innocent:
Approximately 2/3 are to be destroyed during the end time conflicts.  The irony is that most in the nation are secular and like most US Christians only do God lip service.  That won't stop Him from keeping the promise though.  I think everyone should be held to that standard since we all share a common humanity - even the Jews.

Edited by and then, 24 September 2012 - 12:40 AM.

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#24    Eldorado

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 11:38 AM

View PostGravitorbox, on 23 September 2012 - 10:29 PM, said:

This is all completely irrelevant. You didn't address the fact that the USS Liberty was never destroyed and the Israelis sent rescue for the survivors when they found out it was an American ship. Are you DENYING that happened, or do you have an explanation as to how that fits into your narrative that they did it on purpose?

Not my narrative.  The narrative of the surviviors.  US Veterans.  Usually honoured, but not this time.  Why not?

Irrellevant only if you are Jewish or blinkered.

It's "inconvenient".

Edited by Eldorado, 24 September 2012 - 11:44 AM.


#25    Simbul

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 05:07 PM

View PostEldorado, on 24 September 2012 - 11:38 AM, said:

Not my narrative.  The narrative of the surviviors.  US Veterans.  Usually honoured, but not this time.  Why not?
Going through a hellish experience doesn't give you objectivity on the matter. If anything it is more likely to emotionally rile you up and make you not think objectively of a situation. I know that sounds disrespectful but it is the truth.

The way you are acting is tantamount to justifying the Iraq war by constantly harping on 9/11 and how it was terrible, and how people who oppose the Iraq war are "disrespecting the victims of 9/11". You're not being objective.

It is true, at least from what I read, that there are suspicious aspects regarding the investigation of the incident. But the facts are:

1. Israel didn't destroy the ship.

2. Israel did in fact cease attacking at some point to help the survivors. They likely found out it was American ship and felt rather embarrassed.

3. The Israeli airforce has had friendly fire incidents during the 6 day war due to keeping their airforce in the air for long periods of time. They had bombed their own tank column.

I can't believe I have to say this all again but I need to make this clear. I can't see why they would purposely attack an American ship and then stop attacking and help the survivors. It doesn't make any sense whatsoever and does not fit into the "Israel attacked the USS Liberty on purpose" narrative.

The evidence you are pushing, which consists of what the sailors believed and the suspicions surrounding the investigation, have to compete with the facts I stated above. I'm sure it's entirely possible that Israel was so embarrassed about the incident that they halted investigations into it.

"Everything we did was criticized. For about thirty years we lived with the world against us, accusing us of things we didn't do!"

    - Ian Douglas Smith

#26    Eldorado

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 05:18 PM

It is true, from my experience on this earth that...

If the State of Israel believes, rightly or wrongly, that you are an enemy... they will do you in first, and ask questions later.  Friend or foe, brother or sister.  They will do you in.

Liberty severely damaged,
34 crewmen killed,
171 crewmen wounded.


#27    Yamato

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 05:38 PM

View PostGravitorbox, on 24 September 2012 - 05:07 PM, said:

Going through a hellish experience doesn't give you objectivity on the matter. If anything it is more likely to emotionally rile you up and make you not think objectively of a situation. I know that sounds disrespectful but it is the truth.

The way you are acting is tantamount to justifying the Iraq war by constantly harping on 9/11 and how it was terrible, and how people who oppose the Iraq war are "disrespecting the victims of 9/11". You're not being objective.

It is true, at least from what I read, that there are suspicious aspects regarding the investigation of the incident. But the facts are:

1. Israel didn't destroy the ship.

2. Israel did in fact cease attacking at some point to help the survivors. They likely found out it was American ship and felt rather embarrassed.

3. The Israeli airforce has had friendly fire incidents during the 6 day war due to keeping their airforce in the air for long periods of time. They had bombed their own tank column.

I can't believe I have to say this all again but I need to make this clear. I can't see why they would purposely attack an American ship and then stop attacking and help the survivors. It doesn't make any sense whatsoever and does not fit into the "Israel attacked the USS Liberty on purpose" narrative.

The evidence you are pushing, which consists of what the sailors believed and the suspicions surrounding the investigation, have to compete with the facts I stated above. I'm sure it's entirely possible that Israel was so embarrassed about the incident that they halted investigations into it.
Much evidence shows that the USS Liberty attack was no accident and the fact that the USS Liberty wasn't sunk doesn't replace those facts.   The attack would have begun if Israel didn't want to get spied on.  The attack would have ceased when it became clear that the US wasn't going to be dragged into the war over it.  The attack would cease when it became clear that US Phantom jets from the responding US carrier group were going to send Israel's blind, deaf and dumb attackers into the drink if they dared continue killing US sailors.  And of course they were "sorry" and offering support after it was over.   Who would expect anything else?   Eldorado has it spot on:  "If the State of Israel believes, rightly or wrongly, that you are an enemy... they will do you in first, and ask questions later.  Friend or foe, brother or sister.  They will do you in."

"The power to declare war, including the power of judging the causes of war, is fully and exclusively vested in the Legislature.  The Executive has no right, in any case, to decide the question" ~ James Madison
"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein
"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela
"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians.  Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." ~ Mahatma Gandhi

#28    and then

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 10:56 PM

View PostYamato, on 24 September 2012 - 05:38 PM, said:

Much evidence shows that the USS Liberty attack was no accident and the fact that the USS Liberty wasn't sunk doesn't replace those facts.   The attack would have begun if Israel didn't want to get spied on.  The attack would have ceased when it became clear that the US wasn't going to be dragged into the war over it.  The attack would cease when it became clear that US Phantom jets from the responding US carrier group were going to send Israel's blind, deaf and dumb attackers into the drink if they dared continue killing US sailors.  And of course they were "sorry" and offering support after it was over.   Who would expect anything else?   Eldorado has it spot on:  "If the State of Israel believes, rightly or wrongly, that you are an enemy... they will do you in first, and ask questions later. Friend or foe, brother or sister.  They will do you in."
yep...it's called a survival instinct.  When you've faced the horror of imminent extinction it becomes somewhat more finely tuned.  And if you actually believe what you have just stated then I'm curious about your attitude toward the whole dynamic of potential conflict against Israel.  As in: Neighbors threaten to over run Israel and their response - Friend or foe, brother or sister.  They will do you in.  See how simple that is?

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...
“This is like playing poker with a guy who cheated you twice before. You know who does that, a moron.

#29    Lion6969

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 12:14 AM

Funny how survival instinct only applies to a state created on the back of terrorism acts on innocent Palestinians and introduced suicide bombings to achieve their dream state. Now the other party does what ever it can to ensure it's survival, it's deemed to be terrorism! Ironic.

The OP is an interesting question, why not islam? Its similar to observation that Islam is much maligned in the west, ridiculed misrepresented etc.....a lot of hate is generated against it, yet the effects are the diametrical opposites of what their trying to achieve. Instead of large hatred towards Islam, in those very western states the more it's maligned the more westerners are attracted to seek out why......and as a result the large majority of those people then convert to this much maligned religion....maybe the desperate attempt to malign it is to try and keep people of away from what is their right, their right is to know the truth and Islam is the TRUTH :)


#30    and then

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 01:28 AM

View PostLion6969, on 25 September 2012 - 12:14 AM, said:

Funny how survival instinct only applies to a state created on the back of terrorism acts on innocent Palestinians and introduced suicide bombings to achieve their dream state. Now the other party does what ever it can to ensure it's survival, it's deemed to be terrorism! Ironic.

The OP is an interesting question, why not islam? Its similar to observation that Islam is much maligned in the west, ridiculed misrepresented etc.....a lot of hate is generated against it, yet the effects are the diametrical opposites of what their trying to achieve. Instead of large hatred towards Islam, in those very western states the more it's maligned the more westerners are attracted to seek out why......and as a result the large majority of those people then convert to this much maligned religion....maybe the desperate attempt to malign it is to try and keep people of away from what is their right, their right is to know the truth and Islam is the TRUTH :)
That is becoming more and more true.  And when Issa appears and starts telling the world he never died on a cross and the true lord of the age is al mahdi - many, many more will convert.  But the real "truth" you should share is what this "jesus" does to those who don't choose to convert.

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...
“This is like playing poker with a guy who cheated you twice before. You know who does that, a moron.




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