64 replies to this topic

[the L]

Hello dear UMers!

As you notice Im not often in this sub forum .I didn’t know where to put this thread. Problem covers from ancient mysteries, modern mysteries, science, spritiual and ofcourse ET.

Well who isnt heared about Fatima in Portugal? Prophecies about World Wars, spreading of communism and assassination attempt of Pope. Three fatima secrets. I do not question does those three kids saw it or hear it what they explain it to us. Its hard to believe that they will claim all that even they had kids, parrents and state against them. After two of three kids died Lucia become nun.Its hard to me to believe that 10 year old kid would wrote down 3^rd secret and sealed it and with instruction to not open until 1960 sent to Pope.
They indeed saw something. Besides other people accounts. Question is what?

In year 1917 on shiny day on May 13 three children were with their sheeps in filed near Fatima when all of sudden lightning stroke. Soon after one second lightning strike. Shining lady like sun stand on cloud over a tree appears. Ten year old girl Lucia Dos Santos saw and heared Madonna as she later explain to be. All children smell rose. Her cousin Francisco (9) only saw her and Jacinta(7) as Lucia saw and hear her.  Lucia asked : “Where are you from?” And Madonna said “From Heaven.”
Shining light asked them that they meet at same place each month on 13^th till October. Being/Madonna showed 6 times. Parrents thought that’s their imagination and that they are lying. Children mocked them.
But on June 13 fifty person saw luminous cloud and on last contact cca 50 000 were ther e with different expiriences but only Lucia and cousins saw and hear being/Madonna.
This is what Dominic Reis  in  1960 on TV interview said about October 13:

"The sun started to roll from one place to another and changed to blue, yellow - all colours. Then we see the sun coming towards the children. Everyone was crying out. Some started to confess their sins because there was no priest around there . . . My mother grabbed me to her and started to cry, saying 'It is the end of the world!' And then we see the sun come right into the trees . . ."

On May 13 in 1981 on St. Peters square Pope John Paul II was almost killed by Mehmet Ali Agca. Later Vatican said that was a Third secret.
Why Francisco didn’t hear Madonna? He was only male there. Colud it be that light was universe messenger that every spicies sees as their own? Why Francisco and Jacinta died from influenza if that was supreme being? What do you say about connection of anniversary of first contact in Fatima and assassination attempt on Pope? To what being Lucia spoke? To Lady of Fatima? To Ghost? To Universe? To Alien?  Why Universe/Heaven wanted that Lucia be medium?

On october 13 in 1917 cca 50 000 people saw “Miracle of Sun” when sun in zig zag movement  move closer, when rainbows shined from sun and so on. People felt fear, exaltation , exitment. People came to see Our Lady of Fatima as Lucia and cousins claimed that she would appeared. People reported that sun move “against all cosmic laws” (Avelino de Almeida in Newspaper), that sun changed color into blue and silver, multicolored flashes of light for about ten minutes.  It must be noted that some believers did not see anything. Vatican holds that it is Miracle.

Look what wiki said about it:
That the activity of the sun was reported as visible by those up to 18 kilometres (11 mi) away, also precludes the theory of a collective hallucination or mass hysteria.

Pio Scatizzi, Society of Jesus, described the events of that day on Fátima, and he concluded:

The ... solar phenomena were not observed in any observatory. Impossible that they should escape notice of so many astronomers and indeed the other inhabitants of the hemisphere... there is no question of an astronomical or meteorological event phenomenon... Either all the observers in Fátima were collectively deceived and erred in their testimony, or we must suppose an extra-natural intervention.

[Sweetpumper]

Mass swamp gasaullucination.

[the L]

Sweetpumper, on 25 September 2012 - 06:54 PM, said:

Mass swamp gasaullucination.

How then you explain people saw it 18 kilometers away? How come that other people there near children didnt saw anything unusual?

Edited by the L, 25 September 2012 - 06:58 PM.

[R4z3rsPar4d0x]

It is interesting, but the fact that they say no other astronomers saw it does make it seem suspect. So im not to sure on this one

[Hilander]

It will always be a mystery for the ages.

[the L]

Hilander, on 25 September 2012 - 07:17 PM, said:

It will always be a mystery for the ages.

Untill one explain it. If not that doesnt prevent us to speculate.

I think I asked valid question.

Im thinking that some supreme being contact Lucia. That image of Mary is produced by being.

Edited by the L, 25 September 2012 - 07:24 PM.

[Quaentum]

World War I was more than a year from ending.  People desperately need affirmation in their beliefs and Fatima supplied that need.  I believe that those at Fatima that saw the supposed changes in the sun were so ready for something, anything that when one person started describing what they saw, others saw it too.  Something like mass hypnosis or hallucination but not quite.

For those up to 18 km away, it would depend if the questions put to them were leading questions or not.  Also did everyone within that 18 km see it or just certain people?

[the L]

Quaentum, on 25 September 2012 - 07:25 PM, said:

World War I was more than a year from ending.  People desperately need affirmation in their beliefs and Fatima supplied that need.  I believe that those at Fatima that saw the supposed changes in the sun were so ready for something, anything that when one person started describing what they saw, others saw it too.  Something like mass hypnosis or hallucination but not quite.

For those up to 18 km away, it would depend if the questions put to them were leading questions or not.  Also did everyone within that 18 km see it or just certain people?

Certain people. I guess who looked in it. Event happened in 5-10 minutes. Some claim to see it in Italy as I read somewhere. But some certain people are not believers and report unusal sun "dancing". Sceptical journalist from Portugal wrote with mockering about it before saw it himself. After that he wrote differently.

Also if was hypnosis how come that three children have same vision. They all smelled rose.

What cause hypnosis? Hallucination? How come that some were unaffected( Im thinging on hallucination)

Edited by the L, 25 September 2012 - 07:34 PM.

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

Why exactly should we, if assuming the event happened, not take them at their word and accept it as an act of God?
Changing the sun and tossing it around like a tennis ball would be easy for God, He is, after all, God.

[psyche101]

the L, on 25 September 2012 - 06:48 PM, said:

Look what wiki said about it:
That the activity of the sun was reported as visible by those up to 18 kilometres (11 mi) away, also precludes the theory of a collective hallucination or mass hysteria.

Pio Scatizzi, Society of Jesus, described the events of that day on Fátima, and he concluded:

The ... solar phenomena were not observed in any observatory. Impossible that they should escape notice of so many astronomers and indeed the other inhabitants of the hemisphere... there is no question of an astronomical or meteorological event phenomenon... Either all the observers in Fátima were collectively deceived and erred in their testimony, or we must suppose an extra-natural intervention.

I cannot find that in either of the Wiki articles, could I ask for more detailed directions to find it?

As the "secrets" held absolutely nothing of value to us. It is more religious propoganda, summarised below:

The First Secret:

Our Lady showed us a great sea of fire which seemed to be under the earth.


The Second:



The second secret was a statement that World War I would end and goes on to predict another war, World War II during the reign of Pope Pius XI, should men continue offending God and should Russia not convert. The second half requests that Russia be consecrated to the Immaculate Heart:

And the Third:


J.M.J.

The third part of the secret revealed at the Cova da Iria-Fátima, on 13 May 1917.

I write in obedience to you, my God, who command me to do so through his Excellency the Bishop of Leiria and through your Most Holy Mother and mine.

After the two parts which I have already explained, at the left of Our Lady and a little above, we saw an Angel with a flaming sword in his left hand; flashing, it gave out flames that looked as though they would set the world on fire; but they died out in contact with the splendour that Our Lady radiated towards him from her right hand: pointing to the earth with his right hand, the Angel cried out in a loud voice: 'Penance, Penance, Penance!'. And we saw in an immense light that is God: 'something similar to how people appear in a mirror when they pass in front of it' a Bishop dressed in White 'we had the impression that it was the Holy Father'. Other Bishops, Priests, men and women Religious going up a steep mountain, at the top of which there was a big Cross of rough-hewn trunks as of a cork-tree with the bark; before reaching there the Holy Father passed through a big city half in ruins and half trembling with halting step, afflicted with pain and sorrow, he prayed for the souls of the corpses he met on his way; having reached the top of the mountain, on his knees at the foot of the big Cross he was killed by a group of soldiers who fired bullets and arrows at him, and in the same way there died one after another the other Bishops, Priests, men and women Religious, and various lay people of different ranks and positions. Beneath the two arms of the Cross there were two Angels each with a crystal aspersorium in his hand, in which they gathered up the blood of the Martyrs and with it sprinkled the souls that were making their way to God.


As well as this, deities were positively identified at the scene.  I think it is hard to see that in another light. I feel this is the best example of mass hallucination ever documented. I would very much like to see what the claim that it cannot be so is based upon. I find that hard to reconcile.

Edited by psyche101, 26 September 2012 - 12:30 AM.

[the L]

psyche101, on 26 September 2012 - 12:27 AM, said:

I cannot find that in either of the Wiki articles, could I ask for more detailed directions to find it?

http://en.wikipedia....acle_of_the_Sun

[the L]

Wearer of Hats, on 25 September 2012 - 11:32 PM, said:

Why exactly should we, if assuming the event happened, not take them at their word and accept it as an act of God?
Changing the sun and tossing it around like a tennis ball would be easy for God, He is, after all, God.

So is it all determinized then? Gods knew future events. How if we have free will? Maybe Agca give up. Or why God didnt visit Stalin, Agca and Hitler?


Why Francisco didn’t hear Madonna?
Why Francisco and Jacinta died from influenza if that was God why it didnt save them?
What do you say about connection of anniversary of first contact in Fatima and assassination attempt on Pope?

[coolguy]

The fatima lady was an alien

[Quaentum]

the L, on 25 September 2012 - 07:33 PM, said:

Certain people. I guess who looked in it. Event happened in 5-10 minutes. Some claim to see it in Italy as I read somewhere. But some certain people are not believers and report unusal sun "dancing". Sceptical journalist from Portugal wrote with mockering about it before saw it himself. After that he wrote differently.

Also if was hypnosis how come that three children have same vision. They all smelled rose.

What cause hypnosis? Hallucination? How come that some were unaffected( Im thinging on hallucination)

There should have been many others in other countries that also observed this if it happened.  The lack of sufficient corroborating evidence does impact it in a negative way.

The skeptical Portuguese reporter could not have written about the event in a mocking way then saw it happen since his original writing  would have had to have been after the event and he would have had no chance to see it.

I used the words hypnosis and hallucination as attempts to describe what I mean since I don't have the proper term in my head.  I am not well versed in the event so must ask, did the children react all at the same time to the vision and the smell of roses or did one child react first followed by the others.

[Quaentum]

Wearer of Hats, on 25 September 2012 - 11:32 PM, said:

Why exactly should we, if assuming the event happened, not take them at their word and accept it as an act of God?
Changing the sun and tossing it around like a tennis ball would be easy for God, He is, after all, God.

Why exactly should we, if assuming the event happened and that God did indeed toss the sun around like a tennis ball, not be able to find many more accounts of the event.  Accounts outside the 18 km radius in Portugal as well as within other countries in Europe and Africa?

Edited by Quaentum, 26 September 2012 - 04:42 PM.