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Let There Be Light, and There Was Light


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#16    ranrod

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 07:01 PM

I see everyone skipping over the "God created man in his own image" part.  I get some people here speculate the passage refers to our spirit, not our physical form. However, that statement sounds wrong to me from both points of view.  The physical part is obvious (or should be to all here).  The spirit part is only slightly less obvious though.  In what way are we like an all-powerful god?  We can't even begin to comprehend what it would be like to have omnipotence.  Our nature is deeply rooted into what we are, which is partly our physical form, even if the spirit can migrate its carnal form.  If it means we are in God's image in terms of more abstract concepts like love, hope, etc, that's equally weird.
Anyone have a good explanation for how are we in the image of an all-mighty god?


#17    M0TH

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 07:09 PM

View Postranrod, on 01 October 2012 - 07:01 PM, said:

I see everyone skipping over the "God created man in his own image" part.  I get some people here speculate the passage refers to our spirit, not our physical form. However, that statement sounds wrong to me from both points of view.  The physical part is obvious (or should be to all here).  The spirit part is only slightly less obvious though.  In what way are we like an all-powerful god?  We can't even begin to comprehend what it would be like to have omnipotence.  Our nature is deeply rooted into what we are, which is partly our physical form, even if the spirit can migrate its carnal form.  If it means we are in God's image in terms of more abstract concepts like love, hope, etc, that's equally weird.
Anyone have a good explanation for how are we in the image of an all-mighty god?

well I heard it was the trinity... body soul and spirit.....   Father son etc etc...apart from that I'm out

body being physical
soul being mind and heart <feeling emotions the person themselves etc>
spirit being the life/force/energy

open to any other suggestions tho


#18    scowl

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 07:50 PM

Isiah makes it clear about the nature of God: puny humans shouldn't even speculate about it. We'll never understand the nature of God so don't even waste your time thinking about it. Many verses repeat this statement so we idiots would understand it.

In the Hebrew Bible, Isiah is when God switches from "indifference" mode to "pissed and ready to kick ass" mode. I think it's in a different spot in Christian bibles.


#19    scowl

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 08:02 PM

And to contradict that (I love the Bible!), Amos had a vision of God "standing on a wall with a plumbline in His hand".

So there's God's physical body. Anything that's standing and holding something in its hand has got to be pretty close to human. Of course God may have just been projecting the appearance of a human in order to visually make a point about messed up Israel has become. Did I mention I love the Bible? Something for everyone in there.


#20    Mr Walker

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 01:09 AM

View Postranrod, on 01 October 2012 - 07:01 PM, said:

I see everyone skipping over the "God created man in his own image" part.  I get some people here speculate the passage refers to our spirit, not our physical form. However, that statement sounds wrong to me from both points of view.  The physical part is obvious (or should be to all here).  The spirit part is only slightly less obvious though.  In what way are we like an all-powerful god?  We can't even begin to comprehend what it would be like to have omnipotence.  Our nature is deeply rooted into what we are, which is partly our physical form, even if the spirit can migrate its carnal form.  If it means we are in God's image in terms of more abstract concepts like love, hope, etc, that's equally weird.
Anyone have a good explanation for how are we in the image of an all-mighty god?

Thats because god is NOTommipotent or omniscient. God is like us. A sapient being, evolved into that sapience through a learning experience. All sapient self aware entities will share common characteristics due to the nature of thought and language. Indeed language itself requires a degree of thought at a symbolic level, and thought requires a degree of language to formulate itself..

The two are inextricably connected. That means artificial intelligences, other animal inteligences and alien intelligences. (There may be other alien forms of intelligence different to our own, but basically evolved intelligence is a response to environment and is shaped by environments both internal and external. It cant spring from nothing
The fact that humans and god can communicate illustrates this point. I suspect god doesn't actually speak english, but talks to a sapient being in the words thoughts symbols and images etc., that being can comprehend. (no point otherwise) Love and hope. at a human leve.l are abstract symbolic forms created via language in our minds. Of course god has them/shares those qualities with us, if he is capable of thought at or above human level.

I dont believe god created man, but i do think it had an influence in shaping us, from the time we developed enough self awareness to recognise self/other, and hence recognise the presence of god.

Here is how we are like god. We can think. We know the consequences of our thoguths and actions. We are free to act for creative or destructive purposes. We can create and destroy, begining with limited things and evolving into almost unlimited abilty. Because we are intellent and self aware we have  created constructs like; fear, hate, love, empathy, honesty,/dishonesty  cruelty compassion and charity which drive us and guide us.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#21    Mystic Crusader

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 03:31 PM

View Postscowl, on 01 October 2012 - 07:50 PM, said:

Isiah makes it clear about the nature of God: puny humans shouldn't even speculate about it. We'll never understand the nature of God so don't even waste your time thinking about it. Many verses repeat this statement so we idiots would understand it.

The epitome of narcissism and madness perhaps?

Edit:  Forgot sadism.

Edited by HavocWing, 02 October 2012 - 03:35 PM.

"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious
conviction." - Blaise Pascal


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#22    the eternal me

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 10:50 PM

View PostMr Walker, on 30 September 2012 - 04:47 AM, said:

Eternal me. Just to reply to ths point.

a simple concept that is so large we cant wrap our minds around it........

Why do you think that? The human mind is capable of conceiving and understanding  anything. Many atheists would argue that the only forms of god which exist are those imagined and created in the human mind.

Any real god is understandable to humans BECAUSE it is real and thus definable and measurable/quantifiable, as are all real things. Any imagined god is certainly proof that we  can wrap our minds around it, because at least one human being had to do so, to create/construct it.

cool conversation....

Mr Walker.... you have set the challenge to me to explain further on this concept....
i shall do my best....

i am struggling with how to answer this one....

because i see there being nothing but energy...

and we are just thoughts within it...

the construct of that ocean and how it appears to the self is unique to the self....
because of the agreements with the ocean of energy....

not only our own agreements....
but with the agreements the ocean has with everything within it....

from a rock, to a bird... to you....

even every grain of sand that exists within it....

each has our own agreement of "this is how things appear to me" ....

each cell within our bodies has its own concept of existence...
its surroundings are its world, and its life...

in this, it knows what it has to relate to....
it does not see the summation of the whole...
yet it understands its little part in the whole...

in this manner we are a part of the everything...
separated and one at the same time...

to grab onto the concept of the unity of one is to expand ones self to the infinite possibilities and probabilities within that one ocean...

being creatures of 1 on 1 connections....
to connect to an infinite amount of realities and possibilities seems doable...
but within that concept....
you create more possibilities....
and the number of concepts and directions grows....

becomes ever expanding.....

creator being the summation of all things....
expands in much the same manner....

" The human mind is capable of conceiving and understanding  anything. Many atheists would argue that the only forms of god which exist are those imagined and created in the human mind"

and there is a lot of truth to that.....

so... each having their own concept.... and each being right in their own understanding....
there becomes a creation of it for each of us.....

and the numbers continue to grow.....
and it gets more and more complex to the point of "you could drive yourself mad with it"......

to be aware of everything all at the same time......

the summation of everything.....

this is what i mean....

infinity expanding.....

Edited by the eternal me, 02 October 2012 - 10:53 PM.


#23    the eternal me

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 10:59 PM

"Any real god is understandable to humans BECAUSE it is real and thus definable and measurable/quantifiable, as are all real things. Any imagined god is certainly proof that we  can wrap our minds around it, because at least one human being had to do so, to create/construct it."

we all can construct it in what we see is suitable for ourselves....
and the numbers keep growing....

its an ever expanding concept...
with the possibilities and probabilities growing as we think about it...


#24    Mr Walker

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 10:59 PM

That made complete sense to me. i actually agree with all of it except, perhaps, in my knowledge there exists a real physicla independent cosmic consciousness, with which all other consciousnesses interact. it is not just a construct of our mind but exists separate to our consciousness as well as being a part of it. And so my consciousness, with luck and practice, can connect not just to the cosmic consciousness but through it to all consciosness Also, because this conscious awareness is inrerconnected to the physical world, it can influence and shape the physical world. (As can all  self aware sapient and conscious beings, in one way or another)

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#25    the eternal me

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 11:02 PM

so... simple... and complex at the same time....

agreed....


#26    the eternal me

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 11:23 PM

i like how this touched upon the other question and topic of discussion....

being created in the image of creator.....

if you care to see creator as a bipedal life form...
then that is your choice if it fits for you...
i cant argue that....
there really is no point....

but with everything being an ocean of energy... and we all have an agreement within that...
we create everyday....

we "make things happen in our little worlds" ....

how you chose to see that is up to you...

but to be created in the image of creator is to be creators ourselves....

how we understand that is up to the individual...

to take some of what is said in the bible ...

Jesus said that it is within each of us to do the miracles that he did....

that we are all children of "god" ....

so what holds the possibility of turning water to wine apart from yourself?

yourself.....

Jesus kept calling people brother and sister....
placing himself neither above nor below anyone....
but beside them....

at least that is what i think is meant by being created in the image of creator...


#27    Ben Masada

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 06:15 PM

View PostYamato, on 29 September 2012 - 09:11 PM, said:

If that were true, you could accept Christian belief without adopting it yourself.  And I haven't seen where that's the case in your posting history here.   I do see a lot of denial of even the most central and uncontested of Christian beliefs and obtuse rounds of questioning of the most central Christian concepts ("What salvation?" etc).

Killing and stealing and 50-eyes-for-an-eye justice is also forbidden in Judaism, but you never let that stop you.

You're not going to get banned, dude.   Libeling Christianity is another day in the office around here, and you're just another mouthpiece of the hit squad with a patch on your arm.  You belong here more than I do.

How on earth can one adopt the beliefs of another when they contradict those of his own? That's absolutely destitute of logic. You mention the Christian concept of salvation, for instance. Give me a reason why I should give up the Scriptural concept according to the Tanach to adopt the Christian concept that goies against it? Jesus himself declared that salvation comes from the Jews, according to John 4:22, and not from one among the Jews. Then, we have that "Only through his own fault must one die," and not one for another. (Jer. 31:30) Any one can see that the Christian concept of salvation by one for all, was born in the mind of Paul.

Ben


#28    Ben Masada

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 06:35 PM

View PostMr Walker, on 30 September 2012 - 12:19 AM, said:

I am sorry but you are wrong. Or at least we may be speaing of different things. God is as real to me as he was to moses and abraham and the others of the old testament. He appears as light, as a human being, and in any form he choses  becaus ehe is IN allthings..

Of course this (what humans can experience of god) is not the totality of god, or even the essence of god.

God is matter, energy, spirit, consciousness, and can appear to humans in any of those forms, or all of them at once. The old testament makes this clear. Now some individual writers in the bible  may differ. Each is influenced and constrained by their own experience of/with god,  but i dont think moses or abraham would agree with you that there was nothing physical about god.

MAny hebrew /jewish people in the old testament walked with god, not just metaphorically, but physically, and god interacted with them and their environment physically; eg parting the red sea, providing manna,  appearing as a burning bush etc. I agree wigth christ that "worship" of god requires a spiritual relationship with him A recognition of gods spirit within us and around us, but that does not mean that god does not have, or cannot take, physical form. It is. however. on a spiritual level (within us ) that most peole connect to and relate to the peresence of god. Apparently a comparative few connect to and relate to the physical aspects of god.

  I dont know why that is so. To me it is incomprehensible that all humans are not connected to god on a physical level as well as a spiritual one. God is with me, as he was with Daniel when he entered the lions den, or shadrak michak and abednigo in the fiery furnace.

Yes, you are quite right: We have been wasting our time speaking about different things that have nothing to do with each other. You are too anthropomorphic to my taste. But before we part, let me tell you something about God. According to Deuteronomy 4:15,16, "We saw no form at all on the day the Lord spoke to us at Horeb from the midst of the fire. That's why we must strictly be on our guard not to degrade ourselves by fashioning an idol to represent any figure whether it be in the form of a man or a woman." It means that God, according to Jesus himself, is pure Spirit. He can appear in the form of anything, according to the mental disposition of man in a dream or vision. (Num. 12:6)  And God is not matter. Matter is composed of atoms. Were God composed of atoms, He could never be said to be absolutely One. Perhaps you have absolutely no idea of the Jewish concept of God. If you feel embarrassed to learn from a modern Jew, try to learn from Jesus. But not from those who have interpolated strange words in the lips of Jesus.

Ben

Edited by Ben Masada, 03 October 2012 - 06:38 PM.


#29    Ben Masada

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 06:48 PM

View PostRoy Perry, on 30 September 2012 - 02:24 AM, said:

God first

thanks Ben Masada

God used himself to creative us in the world we live in

we were creative in Image of God Himself

We were perfect until we rebelled God Himself

than we went downhill from that moment of Time

because before that moment we did no wrong

we creative a void in what is truth

you must look at yourself as a fool to get wiser

listen to Mr Walker he show you the way

with love and a holy kiss Roy

Roy, we were not created in the image of God because God does not have an image for us to have been created in His image. (Deut. 4:15,16) We were created in the image of His attributes. It is, therefore, by way of God's attributes in us that God keeps in controle of the universe. (Gen. 1:26) Now, to develop those attributes in us is all that life is about. (Gen. 1:28)  I am not implying that God cannot control the universe without us; but that He shares with us the performance of that task.

Ben


#30    Ben Masada

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 07:00 PM

View Postthe eternal me, on 30 September 2012 - 04:09 AM, said:

hmmm......

1- Hebrew is a dead language.... what it says and means in the book has not changed ....what it meant a 1000 years ago... is still what it means today.....
to interpret that into a growing dynamic language like English is a rough one...way to many different meanings to words depending on cultural background (where you grew up) to really get a clear picture of what is being said..
if you really wanted to read where the old testament came from....learn Hebrew my friend....

Hey "Me", what are you talking about? Hebrew is a dead language!!! Hebrew is spoken by more than seven million people on earth. Are you implying that I speak a dead language?

Ben

Edited by Ben Masada, 03 October 2012 - 07:01 PM.





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