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Experiences Change Minds?


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#76    Mr Walker

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 09:10 PM

View Postscowl, on 03 October 2012 - 06:45 PM, said:

Press on an injury and measure the heart rate increase.
That doesnt measure the pain. It measures the perception of pain and the patients response to the perception/feeling of pain. That perception will differ among people, and can be varied by a number of means including faith and training //discipline/ mental control. This is true with all  mechanistic forms of measurement, including those measuring brain activity. eg press on the wound of an involuntarily unconscious living patient and you wont get any change/ response at all, which is why anaesthetics work so well.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#77    Ronseal

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 02:14 AM

I havent witnessed anything paranormal but a couple in my family have so its hard for me not to believe in something out of this world. But I'm happy to wait till my turn.

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#78    Poindexter

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 05:01 AM

By Hell there are some Uneducated Fools on this Forum......

And I lodged a Post on Demonology looking for Proper - Sensible Answers...

Might as well have taken my Witchcraft Stix and Pole and pointed it at the Moon

Here are some answers for the "Flat Earth Dipstix' that dwell on this Forum

400+ years ago the Earth was "FLAT" everybody in the World knew it,, some people had been to the End of the Earth and drew pictures of the Ships sailing over the edge and the Demons waiting to Eat the Sailors as they fell off the Ships

Try to refute it You were burned at the Stake as a Heretic

For the Skeptics.. the Sun revolves around the Earth, don't believe it, go out and sit, at  5.00am until about 6.00pm and watch it.. the Sun goes around the Earth

I used to have all the Mathematical and Logical answers,,,, I was wrong...

Skeptics are Fooish, Uneducated, Inane People,, the First to end up in a Mental Hospital looking for Answers to Occurances that do not have Logical "Everday" Outcomes


#79    Mr Walker

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 06:28 AM

I certainly suspect that skeptics are far less satisfied and more restless in their existence They dont have an answer for anything, and that makes life more  difficult and frustrating. :whistle:

Edited by Mr Walker, 04 October 2012 - 06:28 AM.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#80    Mr Walker

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 11:22 PM

View Postcpetrict, on 04 October 2012 - 10:29 AM, said:

A good sign of when to move on is when you get bored or tense. When you try a new sport and it starts getting competitive and you get cross when you lose, then bail out and find something that is fun again.Of course you should be careful with the risks. Jumping off a bridge may be fun on the way down, but water gets terribly hard at terminal velocities.
Ive never been bored in my life beacue there are somany elements in my brain/consciousness, and always so much going on in there, as well as in the world around me,  and i am totally uncompetitive; but i agree with this.

I counted up for kids in my class nearly one hundred different sports and activities i have learned and been involved in since childhood. That included making the first skate board in my state (As far as i can ascertain from google) in the early 1960s and learning to skate board, through bare foot water skiing,  to snow sking and many forms of shooting.

I used to make my own bows and arrows, crossbows, mortars and rockets,  as a child and then teenager.  I worked out how to make and modify a variety of explosives including gunpowder, as a child in pre internet days, from extensive reading and encyclopedias.
For me, the fun is in the challenge of learning. I seem to learn quickly but, in part, a skill from one thing like surfing transfers to other sports like ice skating making learning faster.

Making one sort of explosive, and experimenting with it, leads on to other forms and to things like making projectile weapons and rockets or explosive devices, timers etc.. I usually give the sport/ activity up once I've got the hang of it and move onto another. In "old age" my pursuits are more intellectual, but the same principles apply.

Edited by Mr Walker, 04 October 2012 - 11:24 PM.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#81    coldethyl

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 03:59 PM

View PostPoindexter, on 04 October 2012 - 05:01 AM, said:

By Hell there are some Uneducated Fools on this Forum......

And I lodged a Post on Demonology looking for Proper - Sensible Answers...

Might as well have taken my Witchcraft Stix and Pole and pointed it at the Moon

Here are some answers for the "Flat Earth Dipstix' that dwell on this Forum

400+ years ago the Earth was "FLAT" everybody in the World knew it,, some people had been to the End of the Earth and drew pictures of the Ships sailing over the edge and the Demons waiting to Eat the Sailors as they fell off the Ships

Try to refute it You were burned at the Stake as a Heretic

For the Skeptics.. the Sun revolves around the Earth, don't believe it, go out and sit, at  5.00am until about 6.00pm and watch it.. the Sun goes around the Earth

I used to have all the Mathematical and Logical answers,,,, I was wrong...

Skeptics are Fooish, Uneducated, Inane People,, the First to end up in a Mental Hospital looking for Answers to Occurances that do not have Logical "Everday" Outcomes

Wow.  I don't think this was called for.


#82    Sakari

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 04:20 PM

View PostPoindexter, on 04 October 2012 - 05:01 AM, said:

By Hell there are some Uneducated Fools on this Forum......

And I lodged a Post on Demonology looking for Proper - Sensible Answers...

Might as well have taken my Witchcraft Stix and Pole and pointed it at the Moon

Here are some answers for the "Flat Earth Dipstix' that dwell on this Forum

400+ years ago the Earth was "FLAT" everybody in the World knew it,, some people had been to the End of the Earth and drew pictures of the Ships sailing over the edge and the Demons waiting to Eat the Sailors as they fell off the Ships

Try to refute it You were burned at the Stake as a Heretic

For the Skeptics.. the Sun revolves around the Earth, don't believe it, go out and sit, at  5.00am until about 6.00pm and watch it.. the Sun goes around the Earth

I used to have all the Mathematical and Logical answers,,,, I was wrong...

Skeptics are Fooish, Uneducated, Inane People,, the First to end up in a Mental Hospital looking for Answers to Occurances that do not have Logical "Everday" Outcomes


Advice....If you are going to call a group of people " fooish ", and " Uneducated ". make sure you spell it correct, and use proper grammar and spelling after calling a group of people " fooish ", and " uneducated ".....

Other wise, your name calling, and lack of spell check will make you look " foolish ". And will show you are the one " uneducated ".

Edited by Sakari, 05 October 2012 - 04:23 PM.

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#83    scowl

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 05:50 PM

View PostMr Walker, on 03 October 2012 - 09:10 PM, said:

That doesnt measure the pain. It measures the perception of pain and the patients response to the perception/feeling of pain. That perception will differ among people, and can be varied by a number of means including faith and training //discipline/ mental control.

With all people, heart rate goes up when experiencing pain and heart rate goes up less when experiencing less pain.


#84    scowl

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 05:58 PM

View Postcoldethyl, on 05 October 2012 - 03:59 PM, said:

Wow.  I don't think this was called for.

Yeah, and pretty much everyone knew that the world was a globe 400 years ago (the flat world belief was something we Americans made up to make Columbus's journey more cool) so I don't know who or what the poster is talking about.

And who are these skeptics ending up in mental hospitals? The most stable people I know are skeptics.


#85    fullywired

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 06:19 PM

View PostMr Walker, on 28 September 2012 - 11:25 PM, said:

NAturally. But remember, it is your lack of experiences which forms this opinion in you. If you ever have a genuine paranormal encounter you will have to adjust your belief in either your own nature or in the paranormal. (Or attempt to rationalise away what happened.)

I am quite intelligent,  as ascertained in  a variety of tests and achievements, :innocent:  educated in logic, philosophy, psychology, and a social scientist's appreciation for the scientific method; and i can assure you that there exist very real and physical manifestions and examples of many forms of paranormal/supernatural "things and events".

They are not created in a person's mind, but are a physical manifestion of the natural order. It wouldnt matter how suggestible you were. You could encounter one as real/physically, as encountering a cat or a dog, because they hold independent existence..

Of course there are also many and common ones caused by mental disorders, suggestion , human's tendency to see patterns where non exist and to create meaning from coincidences. But it is not an either or situation. There are exampes of both.

While you are "encounter free" you are also free to chose belief or disbelief, and it is perhaps more rational to chose disbelief in that situation. A real encounter negates that freedom.

But it is dangerous and illogical just to assume that, being encounter free  means no such things exist.


How do you know that any experiences you think you have had are genuine and not some figment of your over active imagination.Remember you claim to have conversed with angels ,who gave you money and warned you of impending dangers,,this is hardly the stuff to inspire confidence in your judgement

  fullywired

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-------Buddha (563 - 483 BC)

#86    Mr Walker

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 02:25 AM

View Postcoldethyl, on 05 October 2012 - 03:59 PM, said:

Wow.  I don't think this was called for.
Er! You didnt see the satire /reverse logic applied in the post?

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#87    Mr Walker

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 02:34 AM

View Postfullywired, on 05 October 2012 - 06:19 PM, said:

How do you know that any experiences you think you have had are genuine and not some figment of your over active imagination.Remember you claim to have conversed with angels ,who gave you money and warned you of impending dangers,,this is hardly the stuff to inspire confidence in your judgement

  fullywired
By the same evidences i know anything is real; witnesses measurable changes in the external shared environment,  context,   cause and effect, consistency etc. It inspires confidence when you know it as real as the pizza delivery boy.

It doesnt inspire confience in you because you disbeliev the reality of it  You dismiss even the possibilty that such things can be real, mundane and relatively common. You say, "I know all this is impossible thus mr walker is deluded"  Try saying,"i believe all this is impossible  but what if  mr walker is not deluded and such things are/can be quite real."

That's more honest and rational because you CAN NOT know such things are impossible, you can only believe them to be so, based on your own experiences and logical extrapolations.  You are locking "what has to be real" into what you have experienced  or can believe in.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#88    Mr Walker

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 02:47 AM

View Postscowl, on 05 October 2012 - 05:50 PM, said:

With all people, heart rate goes up when experiencing pain and heart rate goes up less when experiencing less pain.
Untrue. (Mostly becaus  it is far too generalised a statement)

Again it is the perceotion of pain  (the feeling of the pain) which cause the heart rate to go up. An unconscious anaethetised person does not feel the pain, thus their heart rate is unaltered.  it isalso quite possible to contol heart rate and all metabolic functions via your mind. In humans pain is a product of our self aware consciousness as much as our physiology, and how we think about pain can have a very big impact on how we feel pain. Not only do i know this as a fact from personal experiences but it is medically and scientifically recognised as well. And so faith (as i t is a state of mind) can regulate the physical amount of pain a perosn feels. It can also lessen stress,  heart rates, breathing and other metabolic indicators. It can modify emotional senses like hate, anger, fear;  and the physical manifestations in our body of those emotional states.

A person with faith may not fear at all, and so their body won't indicate any of the physiological components of fear. Same with stress. Both fear and tress increase the degree/amount  of pain a person feels from a physical wound or injury.  Eliminate or reduce feelings of fear and stress and you eliminate a lot of the pain.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#89    fullywired

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 11:01 AM

View PostMr Walker, on 06 October 2012 - 02:34 AM, said:

.
.
That's more honest and rational because you CAN NOT know such things are impossible, you can only believe them to be so, based on your own experiences and logical extrapolations.  You are locking "what has to be real" into what you have experienced  or can believe in.


By the same token you CAN NOT know such things are possible,you imagine them to be and there is nothing logical in believing in the paranormal etc

   fullywired

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"Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense."
-------Buddha (563 - 483 BC)

#90    Mr Walker

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 12:44 PM

View Postfullywired, on 06 October 2012 - 11:01 AM, said:

By the same token you CAN NOT know such things are possible,you imagine them to be and there is nothing logical in believing in the paranormal etc

   fullywired
No, you see you are allowing your  (dis)belief to stand in the place of reason.

I dont imagine anything. Unless under the influence of a powerful medical  narcoticm and then i am hallucinating, and and very well aware of that fact.. ANgels are no more a produc t of my imagination than dogs or cats. Either everything in life is an illusion or nothing is, if you apply the same standards of evidence and the same logic to establishing any reality.

So yes I can KNOW such things are real, to the same extent i can know any thing outside my mind is real. And for the same reasons.

There may be nothing logical in believing in the paranormal. I dont believe in anything. But it is illogical to deny evidenced reality no matter how strange or unbelievable it seems to a person. The paranormal is real Ive been dealing with it all my life and i can verify  most of that via indpendent observers and witnesses. .I'd go so far to say that there is nothing paranormal, merely normaities we dont fully understand as yet. Most of the paranormal will be achievable by human science within 200 years includig the dematerialisation and rematerialisation of matter,. the constructionof matter from pure energy via templates and the immortality of the human mind and body and thought transference .

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.




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