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A lesson in American ignorance


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#16    questionmark

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 06:06 PM

View Postpreacherman76, on 29 September 2012 - 06:04 PM, said:

There are people whos inteligence far out weighs anyone on this MB, who dont believe in the entire theory of evolution. Its not necessarily a good measuring stick to decide ones intelligence.

intelligence and ignorance don't exclude each other.

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#17    CommunitarianKevin

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 06:18 PM

View Postpreacherman76, on 29 September 2012 - 06:04 PM, said:

There are people whos inteligence far out weighs anyone on this MB, who dont believe in the entire theory of evolution. Its not necessarily a good measuring stick to decide ones intelligence.

A. Observation: There is potential for rapid reproduction. (For a quick example look at bacteria or the cells in the human body, for a slower example look at the population growth of the world.)

B. Observation: There are relatively constant resources and population sizes over time. (As stated above, resources are limited and any given area only has so many resources. It is observed in nature that animal populations stay relatively constant over the course of time due to the limited resources.)

C. Conclusion based on A and B: There is competition for resources to survive and reproduce.

D. Observation: There is variability in structures and behaviors. (This is obvious because no 2 people are alike unless they are identical twins but even they differ. People and animals are different.)

E. Conclusion: Natural Selection-On average the “fittest” organisms (Fitness in Biology refers to the number of offspring or the amount of genes passed on to future generations,) or those with the most beneficial structures leave the most offspring.

F. Observation: Some variability is inherited. (This is obvious because we inherit traits from our parents. Genes had not been discovered at this point so Darwin did not know what they were. His theory of “genes” is the part of his theory that was wrong but when we discovered genes, they supported his theory.)

G. Conclusion: Evolution-The genetic makeup of the population changes over time, driven by Natural Selection.

Which part of the theory here do they not agree with?

Edited by HuttonEtAl, 29 September 2012 - 06:19 PM.

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#18    Gummug

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 06:31 PM

View Postpreacherman76, on 29 September 2012 - 06:04 PM, said:

There are people whos inteligence far out weighs anyone on this MB, who dont believe in the entire theory of evolution. Its not necessarily a good measuring stick to decide ones intelligence.
Here are some people who believe in creationism:

Chuck Norris


Tough guy Chuck Norris has some tough words on evolution: “It’s cute. But here’s what I really think about the theory of evolution: It’s not real. It is not the way we got here. In fact, the life you see on this planet is really just a list of creatures God has allowed to live. We are not creations of random chance. We are not accidents. There is a God, a Creator, who made you and me. We were made in His image, which separates us from all other creatures.”

George Washington Carver


In addition to developing 300 uses for peanuts, soybeans, pecans and sweet potatoes, his method of crop rotation, which revolutionized southern agriculture. He credited the Bible with his divine guidance saying, "God made the clay in the hills; they have been there for countless generations, changeless. All I do is prepare what God has made, for uses to which man can put it. It is God's work—not mine."

Ben Stein


Ben Stein's latest movie, Expelled looks at the teaching of science in schools, so it's no surprise that this former Nixon speech writer has some clear views on creationism. He said once, "Funny how you can send 'jokes' through e-mail and they spread like wildfire but when you start sending messages regarding the Lord, people think twice about sharing."

Sarah Palin


This is a tricky one, though common thought is that Sarah Palin is indeed a creationist. Her thoughts on teaching creationism: "Teach both. You know, don't be afraid of information. Healthy debate is so important and it's so valuable in our schools. I am a proponent of teaching both. And you know, I say this too as the daughter of a science teacher. Growing up with being so privileged and blessed to be given a lot of information on, on both sides of the subject -- creationism and evolution. It's been a healthy foundation for me. But don't be afraid of information and let kids debate both sides."

Ted Haggard


Now former evangelical pastor Ted Haggard, who was listed once in the top 25 most influential evangelicals in the US, and who is a big supporter of George W. Bush and was instrumental in guiding the evangelical voting base in 2004. In a British documentary calledThe Root of All Evil, Haggard said that conclusions of that method regarding the age of the earth and evolution were only the result of "some of the views that are accepted in some portions of the scientific community."

C. Everett Koop


Former Surgeon General and staunch right to life advocate is a doctor who's thought to be a creationist.

Joel Osteen


Minister to 2 million souls, Joel Osteen of the Lakewood Church in Houston, TX, had this to say on his maker while promoting his book to Larry King, "It's just my basic message of becoming all God's created you to be."

Mike Huckabee


Ordained minister and former candidate Mike Huckabee is very firm in his position. Don't take my word for it, hear what he had to say on the subjectduring the presidential debates.

The Duggars


Reality TV stars, the gigantic Duggar family, recentlytook an outing to the Creation Museum, visiting exhibits like the Noah's Ark room.

William Jennings Bryan


Influential politician (he was the Democratic nominee for president at 36) and orator William Jennings Bryan (who some think John McCain's "my friends" can be traced back to) had a prominent role in the prosecution of the Scopes trial. He said, "It is better to trust in the Rock of Ages than to know the ages of rock."


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#19    CommunitarianKevin

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 06:33 PM

View PostGummug, on 29 September 2012 - 06:31 PM, said:

Here are some people who believe in creationism:

Chuck Norris


Tough guy Chuck Norris has some tough words on evolution: “It’s cute. But here’s what I really think about the theory of evolution: It’s not real. It is not the way we got here. In fact, the life you see on this planet is really just a list of creatures God has allowed to live. We are not creations of random chance. We are not accidents. There is a God, a Creator, who made you and me. We were made in His image, which separates us from all other creatures.”

George Washington Carver


In addition to developing 300 uses for peanuts, soybeans, pecans and sweet potatoes, his method of crop rotation, which revolutionized southern agriculture. He credited the Bible with his divine guidance saying, "God made the clay in the hills; they have been there for countless generations, changeless. All I do is prepare what God has made, for uses to which man can put it. It is God's work—not mine."

Ben Stein


Ben Stein's latest movie, Expelled looks at the teaching of science in schools, so it's no surprise that this former Nixon speech writer has some clear views on creationism. He said once, "Funny how you can send 'jokes' through e-mail and they spread like wildfire but when you start sending messages regarding the Lord, people think twice about sharing."

Sarah Palin


This is a tricky one, though common thought is that Sarah Palin is indeed a creationist. Her thoughts on teaching creationism: "Teach both. You know, don't be afraid of information. Healthy debate is so important and it's so valuable in our schools. I am a proponent of teaching both. And you know, I say this too as the daughter of a science teacher. Growing up with being so privileged and blessed to be given a lot of information on, on both sides of the subject -- creationism and evolution. It's been a healthy foundation for me. But don't be afraid of information and let kids debate both sides."

Ted Haggard


Now former evangelical pastor Ted Haggard, who was listed once in the top 25 most influential evangelicals in the US, and who is a big supporter of George W. Bush and was instrumental in guiding the evangelical voting base in 2004. In a British documentary calledThe Root of All Evil, Haggard said that conclusions of that method regarding the age of the earth and evolution were only the result of "some of the views that are accepted in some portions of the scientific community."

C. Everett Koop


Former Surgeon General and staunch right to life advocate is a doctor who's thought to be a creationist.

Joel Osteen


Minister to 2 million souls, Joel Osteen of the Lakewood Church in Houston, TX, had this to say on his maker while promoting his book to Larry King, "It's just my basic message of becoming all God's created you to be."

Mike Huckabee


Ordained minister and former candidate Mike Huckabee is very firm in his position. Don't take my word for it, hear what he had to say on the subjectduring the presidential debates.

The Duggars


Reality TV stars, the gigantic Duggar family, recentlytook an outing to the Creation Museum, visiting exhibits like the Noah's Ark room.

William Jennings Bryan


Influential politician (he was the Democratic nominee for president at 36) and orator William Jennings Bryan (who some think John McCain's "my friends" can be traced back to) had a prominent role in the prosecution of the Scopes trial. He said, "It is better to trust in the Rock of Ages than to know the ages of rock."



Is this list in support of creationism or evolution...I can't tell...

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#20    Gummug

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 06:36 PM

For the most part in favor of creationism, I believe.

The more I learn, the more I realize how little I know....

#21    CommunitarianKevin

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 06:46 PM

View PostGummug, on 29 September 2012 - 06:36 PM, said:

For the most part in favor of creationism, I believe.

Okay so let's look at the list of people in favor of creationism...
Chuck Norris-Kicks people in the head in movies right?
George Washington Carver-Used evolution and thanked God...
Ben Stein-Check out Expelled Exposed. The guy is a joke and a fraud on the topic. It is embarassing he has a degree in Law.
Sarah Palin-Seriously? A former beauty queen?
Ted Haggard-You mean the pastor at a mega church that was caught with crack having sex with a gay prostitute?
C. Everett Koop-Thought to be a creationist? So they aren't sure?
Joel Osteen-Celeb Pastor...
Mike Huckabee-Seriously? He makes Romney look sane...
The Duggars-People with like 20 kids are now experts in science?
William Jennings Bryan-You know he got embarassed at the Scopes trial and died like the day after right?

*shakes head*

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#22    CommunitarianKevin

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 06:55 PM

Seriously though...you could at least look for actual "scientists..." They are out there...though they have been discredited because they believe in creationism...

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#23    Gummug

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 06:58 PM

Okay I haven't done research on any of the things you mentioned, and I'm not going to today probably, but before I do some research, may I ask you your source of information? I'd like to watch Expelled Exposed..if it was a DVD? Or was it a book? Anyway, just 'cuz Chuck Norris kicks people in the movies and on TV I don't see how that portrays him as a dummy...are Bruce Lee and Arnold Schwarzenegger also dummies because they can fight? Are policemen and women dummies because they are taught to fight?

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#24    CommunitarianKevin

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 07:00 PM

View PostGummug, on 29 September 2012 - 06:58 PM, said:

Okay I haven't done research on any of the things you mentioned, and I'm not going to today probably, but before I do some research, may I ask you your source of information? I'd like to watch Expelled Exposed..if it was a DVD? Or was it a book? Anyway, just 'cuz Chuck Norris kicks people in the movies and on TV I don't see how that portrays him as a dummy...are Bruce Lee and Arnold Schwarzenegger also dummies because they can fight? Are policemen and women dummies because they are taught to fight?

I will PM you...

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#25    Gummug

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 07:04 PM

I have to leave pretty soon to go watch a movie with my friend, but I'll leave you with one parting thought: Consider a single celled organism, which if my understanding of evolution is correct, is one of the first things that evolved. Wouldn't you agree that the cytoplasm cannot exist without a membrane, and also that the cell membrane would be useless without  cytoplasm inside? OK, so for a functioning cell to exist, the membrane and the cytoplasm would have to have come into existence together at the same time. What are the chances of that happening without intelligence guidance? I'd say about the same as a tornado blowing through a junkyard and creating a Mercedes Benz...in other words, zilch. I'll have to take up this again tomorrow.

The more I learn, the more I realize how little I know....

#26    Gummug

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 07:10 PM

Looking forward to your pm Hutton but I may have to read it later today or tomorrow, planning on catching a movie with my friend Sue, Lord willing. :)

The more I learn, the more I realize how little I know....

#27    CommunitarianKevin

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 07:12 PM

View PostGummug, on 29 September 2012 - 07:10 PM, said:

Looking forward to your pm Hutton but I may have to read it later today or tomorrow, planning on catching a movie with my friend Sue, Lord willing. :)

No rush. I am a very busy person...

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#28    questionmark

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 07:16 PM

View PostGummug, on 29 September 2012 - 07:04 PM, said:

I have to leave pretty soon to go watch a movie with my friend, but I'll leave you with one parting thought: Consider a single celled organism, which if my understanding of evolution is correct, is one of the first things that evolved. Wouldn't you agree that the cytoplasm cannot exist without a membrane, and also that the cell membrane would be useless without  cytoplasm inside? OK, so for a functioning cell to exist, the membrane and the cytoplasm would have to have come into existence together at the same time. What are the chances of that happening without intelligence guidance? I'd say about the same as a tornado blowing through a junkyard and creating a Mercedes Benz...in other words, zilch. I'll have to take up this again tomorrow.

There are several possible explanations to possibilities of membrane-less single cell organisms.

But it is less what we don't see anymore but what we do see that makes up my conviction that nobody can do a blundering job like creating humans on purpose.

And speaking of humans, what is the explanation that, if somebody intelligent devised humans, that a evidently biped species has inter vertebral cartilages designed for a 4 legged species? Was it that ACME body engineering did not supply the correct parts on time or was it some perverse sense of sadism that put them there knowing that most likely they will fail in 70% of humans (as they usually do)?

If somebody made humans the way they are it must have been an apprentice creator, at best. Blunderer would befit whoever it was way better.

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#29    Gummug

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 11:21 PM

Questionmark, here's a link which might give pause to the point you made about the spine being a bungled bit of engineering:
http://creation.com/...orter-interview
So, hopefully it can be a basis for an honest, friendly discussion...

The more I learn, the more I realize how little I know....

#30    DieChecker

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 04:11 AM

I believe there are many creationist scientists. Just not many "Young Earth" scientists.

There are many forms of creationism. Such as the idea that someone ("God" in Christianitys case) planted all life here and has been sheparding us.

Most educated and logical Christians.... and there are tons of them... do not strictly believe in the 7 days of Genesis and the Flood and the Exodus. To someone who will sit down and think there are too many contradictions and problems introduced. Most Christians I've met... and I've been Christian 14 of my 44 years... over 5 different churches... hundreds of people... are logical and usually educated people. I've met maybe 10 people who were Young Earth/ Flat Earth/ True Believers, who said playing Pokemon was a irredemable sin... out of hundreds.

Creationist scientists probably are a good percentage of all scientists. Maybe as much as 10%, but probably closer to 5%.

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