40 replies to this topic

[B Jenkins]

On the plight of Arab refugees from the Arab-Israeli war. Dorothy Thompson speaks on the refugee problem. Refugees live in tents in the Gaza Strip, are given blankets and food by Egyptian soldiers, and receive flour from UNICEF. A Lebanese priest conducts services. Refugees work as plumbers, carpenters, tailors, and shoemakers in the city of Jerusalem. Doctors vaccinate refugees against disease. Shows the squalid living conditions in refugee camps, starving children, and emphasizes the hopeless condition of the refugees. Producer: Council for the Relief of Palestine Arab Refugees; Creative Commons license: Public Domain

[and then]

62 years.  They remain in hope that Israel will disappear.  If there were sanity in the world the nations of Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon and Syria would have each taken a portion of these displaced persons and welcomed them as brothers at some point - giving them succour and dignity.  But instead these nations have made them permanent beggars for their own political ends and hatreds.  62 years and billions of dollars of welfare later, these people are still beggars and still for the same reason.  Rather than find some just compromise they remain firmly entrenched in their hatreds.  They are taught as very young children that Israel and the West in general are their enemy.  It is sad for them because Israel will never disappear.  The hatreds and plots, schemes and propaganda will never get the job done.  What it WILL accomplish is war.  Unnecessary blood letting that only ends when they become more interested in peace than reconquest.  So you see, Bug, these films have an answer.  It's just not one you care to believe or acknowledge.  More's the pity.

[B Jenkins]

and then, on 01 October 2012 - 04:58 AM, said:

62 years.  They remain in hope that Israel will disappear.  If there were sanity in the world the nations of Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon and Syria would have each taken a portion of these displaced persons and welcomed them as brothers at some point - giving them succour and dignity.  But instead these nations have made them permanent beggars for their own political ends and hatreds.  62 years and billions of dollars of welfare later, these people are still beggars and still for the same reason.  Rather than find some just compromise they remain firmly entrenched in their hatreds.  They are taught as very young children that Israel and the West in general are their enemy.  It is sad for them because Israel will never disappear.  The hatreds and plots, schemes and propaganda will never get the job done.  What it WILL accomplish is war.  Unnecessary blood letting that only ends when they become more interested in peace than reconquest.  So you see, Bug, these films have an answer.  It's just not one you care to believe or acknowledge.  More's the pity.

Get your head out of the sand, Palestinians wont have it any better in Israel either.

Here is what our own US Department of State says about Israel http://www.state.gov.../2005/61690.htm



Israel and the occupied territories


Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights, and Labor
2005March 8, 2006



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(The Report on the occupied territories is appended at the end of this Report.)
With a population of approximately 6.9 million (including about 5 million Jews within Israel),Israel is a multiparty parliamentary democracy. "Basic laws" enumerate fundamental rights. The 120-member, unicameral Knesset, has the power to dissolve the government and mandate elections. Both the 16th (most recent) Knesset and Prime Minister Ariel Sharon were elected democratically in 2003. In November Sharon requested that the president dissolve the Knesset, announced that he was leaving the Likud Party, and established a new party, Kadima ("move forward"). The president set elections for March 28, 2006. On December 29, pursuant to presidential decree, the Knesset was dissolved.


The judiciary is independent and sometimes ruled against the executive, including in some security cases. Notwithstanding some cases of abuse by individuals, the civilian authorities maintained effective control of the security forces. (An annex to this report covers human rights in the occupied territories. This report deals only with human rights in Israel.)

In August and September, Israel withdrew all civilians and military personnel from all 21 Israeli settlements in the Gaza Strip and from 4 settlements in the northern West Bank of the over 200 settlements there. Palestinians in the occupied territories are not citizens of the country and do not enjoy the rights of citizens, even if living in areas under full Israeli authority or arrested in Israel. The approximately 20 thousand non-Israeli residents of the Golan Heights were subject to Israeli authority and Israeli law.

The government generally respected the human rights of its citizens; however, there were problems in some areas, including the following:

• serious abuses by some members of the security forces against Palestinian detainees
  
• Palestinian terrorist attacks against Israeli civilians and Israeli Defense Force (IDF) soldiers
  
• resulted in the death of 29 civilians and an IDF soldier within Israel
  
• poor conditions in some detention and interrogation facilities
  
• improper application of security internment procedures (see annex)
  
• institutional, legal, and societal discrimination against the country's Arab citizens
  
• discrimination in personal and civil status matters against non-Orthodox Jews
  
• societal violence and discrimination against women
  
• trafficking in and abuse of women and foreign workers
  
• de facto discrimination against persons with disabilities
  
• government corruption

[and then]

Ambush Bug, on 01 October 2012 - 05:29 AM, said:

Get your head out of the sand, Palestinians wont have it any better in Israel either.

Here is what our own US Department of State says about Israel http://www.state.gov.../2005/61690.htm



Israel and the occupied territories


Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights, and Labor
2005March 8, 2006



Share on facebookShare on google_plusone

(The Report on the occupied territories is appended at the end of this Report.)
With a population of approximately 6.9 million (including about 5 million Jews within Israel),Israel is a multiparty parliamentary democracy. "Basic laws" enumerate fundamental rights. The 120-member, unicameral Knesset, has the power to dissolve the government and mandate elections. Both the 16th (most recent) Knesset and Prime Minister Ariel Sharon were elected democratically in 2003. In November Sharon requested that the president dissolve the Knesset, announced that he was leaving the Likud Party, and established a new party, Kadima ("move forward"). The president set elections for March 28, 2006. On December 29, pursuant to presidential decree, the Knesset was dissolved.


The judiciary is independent and sometimes ruled against the executive, including in some security cases. Notwithstanding some cases of abuse by individuals, the civilian authorities maintained effective control of the security forces. (An annex to this report covers human rights in the occupied territories. This report deals only with human rights in Israel.)

In August and September, Israel withdrew all civilians and military personnel from all 21 Israeli settlements in the Gaza Strip and from 4 settlements in the northern West Bank of the over 200 settlements there. Palestinians in the occupied territories are not citizens of the country and do not enjoy the rights of citizens, even if living in areas under full Israeli authority or arrested in Israel. The approximately 20 thousand non-Israeli residents of the Golan Heights were subject to Israeli authority and Israeli law.

The government generally respected the human rights of its citizens; however, there were problems in some areas, including the following:

• serious abuses by some members of the security forces against Palestinian detainees
  
• Palestinian terrorist attacks against Israeli civilians and Israeli Defense Force (IDF) soldiers
  
• resulted in the death of 29 civilians and an IDF soldier within Israel
  
• poor conditions in some detention and interrogation facilities
  
• improper application of security internment procedures (see annex)
  
• institutional, legal, and societal discrimination against the country's Arab citizens
  
• discrimination in personal and civil status matters against non-Orthodox Jews
  
• societal violence and discrimination against women
  
• trafficking in and abuse of women and foreign workers
  
• de facto discrimination against persons with disabilities
  
• government corruption

I'm not proposing that they will be in Israel.  As far as I'm concerned they need to be separated and live in different countries.  This is why the problem has no peaceful solution short of one group literally wiping the other group out of the land.  The Palestinians will never really, finally accept anything except ALL THE LAND.  They will never accomplish this by force of arms and neither will their "patrons".  I think the Bible mentions a couple of different conflicts that may pave the way for a solution to this problem but it will be horrendous for all concerned.  You are comical in your presentation of political solutions and approaches to such problems that have PROVEN they have no political solution.

[B Jenkins]

and then, on 01 October 2012 - 05:51 AM, said:

I'm not proposing that they will be in Israel.  As far as I'm concerned they need to be separated and live in different countries.  This is why the problem has no peaceful solution short of one group literally wiping the other group out of the land.  The Palestinians will never really, finally accept anything except ALL THE LAND.  They will never accomplish this by force of arms and neither will their "patrons".  I think the Bible mentions a couple of different conflicts that may pave the way for a solution to this problem but it will be horrendous for all concerned.  You are comical in your presentation of political solutions and approaches to such problems that have PROVEN they have no political solution.

I just addressed someone else in another forum about this, what is your opinion of Plan Dalet (December 1947) and Operation Balak (June 1947-October 1949)?

Remember the international Arab-Israeli war began after Israel declared itself a state on May 15, 1948.

Here read this document Plan Dalet: Master Plan For the Conquest Of Palestine

http://www.scribd.co...y-Walid-Khalidi

*snip*

Edited by Saru, 02 October 2012 - 11:27 AM.
Removed flame

[and then]

Bug I want Israel to succeed in their plans to control the land.  Have I not been honest and forthright in announcing this over and over?  I do not agree that they should abuse or kill the Palestinians except as might occur in legitimate self defense but I believe God gave them the land.  He is sovereign and since He said it is their's - I have to believe it is their's.  Apparently you have no such proscriptions against your way of thinking.

[B Jenkins]

and then, on 01 October 2012 - 06:41 AM, said:

Bug I want Israel to succeed in their plans to control the land.  Have I not been honest and forthright in announcing this over and over?  I do not agree that they should abuse or kill the Palestinians except as might occur in legitimate self defense but I believe God gave them the land.  He is sovereign and since He said it is their's - I have to believe it is their's.  Apparently you have no such proscriptions against your way of thinking.

But the many orthodox Jews believe the Messiah leads them back to the land. That they cant return to the land until AFTER the Messiah arrives.

Some that have voiced an opinion here, believe there are many messiahs and that Theodor Herzl was one of them, even though he was a secular atheist and had relationships with prostitutes and believed all Jews should convert to Christianity as a solution to staunch anti-semitism. Two of his children committed suicide and a third went mad.

Anyways, I stick to the human issues, Jesus did warn that they will be identified by their fruits.

[.AKUMA.]

and then, on 01 October 2012 - 04:58 AM, said:

62 years.  They remain in hope that Israel will disappear.  If there were sanity in the world the nations of Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon and Syria would have each taken a portion of these displaced persons and welcomed them as brothers at some point - giving them succour and dignity.  But instead these nations have made them permanent beggars for their own political ends and hatreds.  62 years and billions of dollars of welfare later, these people are still beggars and still for the same reason.  Rather than find some just compromise they remain firmly entrenched in their hatreds.  They are taught as very young children that Israel and the West in general are their enemy.  It is sad for them because Israel will never disappear.  The hatreds and plots, schemes and propaganda will never get the job done.  What it WILL accomplish is war.  Unnecessary blood letting that only ends when they become more interested in peace than reconquest.  So you see, Bug, these films have an answer.  It's just not one you care to believe or acknowledge.  More's the pity.

Everything you said is true, but when you have lived your life oppressed by tyrants on both sides, hatred seems to be your ownley salvation.

[meryt-tetisheri]

and then, on 01 October 2012 - 04:58 AM, said:

62 years.  They remain in hope that Israel will disappear.  If there were sanity in the world the nations of Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon and Syria would have each taken a portion of these displaced persons and welcomed them as brothers at some point - giving them succour and dignity.  But instead these nations have made them permanent beggars for their own political ends and hatreds.  62 years and billions of dollars of welfare later, these people are still beggars and still for the same reason.  Rather than find some just compromise they remain firmly entrenched in their hatreds.  They are taught as very young children that Israel and the West in general are their enemy.  It is sad for them because Israel will never disappear.  The hatreds and plots, schemes and propaganda will never get the job done.  What it WILL accomplish is war.  Unnecessary blood letting that only ends when they become more interested in peace than reconquest.  So you see, Bug, these films have an answer.  It's just not one you care to believe or acknowledge.  More's the pity.

Egypt, particularly now with the new government, is actually giving Palestinians in Gaza more than it can affored. It is only when a government provides 'succor and dignity' to close to 45% who are impoverished among its own population that it may start looking after its neighbors. Subsidized goods and fuel are regularly smuggled through illegal tunnels by Palestinian profiteers, and are taxed by Hamas, at the cost of those who are actually poorer than the Gaza population. Below you find an Egyptian cartoon that says it all. The succor should come from the oil rich countries, Egypt has sacrificed enough!
  

    

[Wookietim]

This is a bit off topic, but I wonder... What would happen if everybody realized that both Israel and thew Palestinians have legitimate claims to the same land and therefore decided to grow up a bit? After all, it's becoming more obvious that neither side is going to budge any time soon. So how about a compromise : Israel starts to integrate Palestinians into it's govt and tries to become the melting pot of the middle east where different religions and cultures join to create a new country? That wouldn't happen immediately (It would take a generation to really come to fruition) and there would be problems... but it seems like it might be the only real solution to the problems being experienced in that country...

[Yamato]

There shouldn't even be a "tunnel" let alone an "illegal" one.   If people weren't being deprived of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, there wouldn't be any need for bullets, bombs and booby traps.  Such as their reality is, there's a need for weapons to defend themselves from terrorism and tyranny.  

Want to put the goons out of business?  Tear down the damn walls.

[odas]

and then, on 01 October 2012 - 04:58 AM, said:

62 years.  They remain in hope that Israel will disappear.  If there were sanity in the world the nations of Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon and Syria would have each taken a portion of these displaced persons and welcomed them as brothers at some point - giving them succour and dignity.  But instead these nations have made them permanent beggars for their own political ends and hatreds.  62 years and billions of dollars of welfare later, these people are still beggars and still for the same reason.  Rather than find some just compromise they remain firmly entrenched in their hatreds.  They are taught as very young children that Israel and the West in general are their enemy.  It is sad for them because Israel will never disappear.  The hatreds and plots, schemes and propaganda will never get the job done.  What it WILL accomplish is war.  Unnecessary blood letting that only ends when they become more interested in peace than reconquest.  So you see, Bug, these films have an answer.  It's just not one you care to believe or acknowledge.  More's the pity.

And act like a complice in ethnic clansing?

[and then]

odas, on 01 October 2012 - 06:37 PM, said:

And act like a complice in ethnic clansing?

The result will be war and more death.  You can stand on your moral principles and it is your right, but the end state will be worse than the status quo.

[and then]

meryt-tetisheri, on 01 October 2012 - 05:33 PM, said:

Egypt, particularly now with the new government, is actually giving Palestinians in Gaza more than it can affored. It is only when a government provides 'succor and dignity' to close to 45% who are impoverished among its own population that it may start looking after its neighbors. Subsidized goods and fuel are regularly smuggled through illegal tunnels by Palestinian profiteers, and are taxed by Hamas, at the cost of those who are actually poorer than the Gaza population. Below you find an Egyptian cartoon that says it all. The succor should come from the oil rich countries, Egypt has sacrificed enough!
  

That has not always been so.  I think when all this began, Egypt was one of the wealthier immediate neighbors but the point I make is that the Palestinians are Arabs.  All their neighbors are Arabs and some of those quite wealthy like the oil kingdoms.... there can be no doubt that if they had acted toward their blood relations as the Jews of Israel did for the many tens of thousands of displaced Jews then the problem might not exist at all.  I do not blame one of these nations more than another.  But I believe it is self evident that the hatred of Arab for Jew spoken of in the Qur'an sets a wall between these peoples far greater than any  edifice of mortar and stone.

[and then]

Wookietim, on 01 October 2012 - 06:00 PM, said:

This is a bit off topic, but I wonder... What would happen if everybody realized that both Israel and thew Palestinians have legitimate claims to the same land and therefore decided to grow up a bit? After all, it's becoming more obvious that neither side is going to budge any time soon. So how about a compromise : Israel starts to integrate Palestinians into it's govt and tries to become the melting pot of the middle east where different religions and cultures join to create a new country? That wouldn't happen immediately (It would take a generation to really come to fruition) and there would be problems... but it seems like it might be the only real solution to the problems being experienced in that country...

If you were dealing with even a somewhat rational western mindset your plan would no doubt find success - maybe complete success.  The camel in the tent that NO ONE will speak of is the hatred between these two peoples.