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Do atheists get a hard time?


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#271    Setton

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 03:24 PM

View PostAlienated Being, on 25 October 2012 - 01:14 PM, said:

Actually, no; it is more of a first year university level understanding of the various processes involved.

Ah. Wait till you get to third/fourth year. It all goes on it's head then.

Quote

I find it interesting as to how you claim that we don't have an understanding as to how the Earth was formed, however in the very same post you assert that we know of what the Earth looked like during the Hadean. How do we know this? You really contradicted yourself in that post. How can we say for certain that the planet looked just as you described?

Sorry, I didn't realise I needed to spell everything out. Obviously the state of the planet in the Hadean is purely theoretical. We don't know. The other key point is your failure to distinguish between what happened (which is relatively straight forward to model and/or deduce) and how it happened (where we really have nothing but guesswork). For example, at some point, plate tectonics started (we can see evidence of this today so it must be true). How they started? No way of knowing as there is next to nothing left from that far back in history. And formation of the Earth is at least 700 Ma earlier than that.

'Good' is not the same as 'nice'.
'No, murder is running your broadsword through someone because he worships a different God to you... Or is that evangelism? I get confused.'
When they discover the centre of the universe, a lot of people are going to be disappointed - They are not it.
I don't object to the concept of a deity but I'm baffled by the notion of one that takes attendance.

#272    scowl

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 04:31 PM

View PostUgly1, on 25 October 2012 - 02:08 AM, said:

Many Bible verses support the idea that love for others is sufficient to keep you out of Hell.

But none of these things say anything about salvation.

Quote

   Galatians 5:14 (RSV)
   For the whole law is fulfilled in one word, "You shall love your
   neighbor as yourself."

   Romans 13:8 (RSV)
   Owe no one anything, except to love one another; for he who loves
   his neighbor has fulfilled the law.

   Romans 13:10 (RSV)
   Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling
   of the law.

   James 2:8 (RSV)
   If you really fulfill the royal law, according to the scripture,
   "You shall love your neighbor as yourself," you do well.

Several verses say obeying the law isn't enough to guarantee salvation and there's quite a bit of confusion about what "the law" is exactly.

Quote

   Proverbs 10:12 (RSV)
   Hatred stirs up strife, but love covers all offenses.
Proverbs is before the concept of salvation so it doesn't count!

Quote

   1 Peter 4:8 (RSV)
   Above all hold unfailing your love for one another, since love
   covers a multitude of sins.
But absence of sin doesn't guarantee salvation.

Quote

I think what is lost in many churches today is the love your neighbor. In my opinion that is creating a lot of Atheists and also not spreading the true word of Jesus Christ which is what our Christian faith is based on.

That's because if you pick up the Bible and start reading, you'll find anything but "love thy neighbor" in the first five books. The Israelites were commanded by God to commit genocide against their neighbors in order to take their land and to kill anyone who doesn't believe in God. Sometimes God got a little soft-hearted and ordered them to just enslave their neighbors (Leviticus 25:45). It's very clear to me that when the Old Testament encourages kindness to a "neighbor" (like in Leviticus 19:18 where the New Testament got the concept) it means "fellow Israelite", not people who don't worship God.

I suspect that in the New Testament these "neighbors" are also fellow Christians or potential Christians, not Romans or pagans or atheists who are to be shunned. That's how I interpret 2 Corinthians 6:14-15 anyway:

"Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? And what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? Or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?"

Then 2 Corinthians 6:17 drives the point home:

"Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the LORD, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you. "

I read that as "Give atheists a hard time. Don't invite them to your parties. Don't hang out with them at football games. Keep them out of your business organizations and your country clubs. They are 'unclean' and Jesus doesn't want you near them."


#273    Alienated Being

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 06:58 PM

Quote

Sorry, I didn't realise I needed to spell everything out. Obviously the state of the planet in the Hadean is purely theoretical. We don't know. The other key point is your failure to distinguish between what happened (which is relatively straight forward to model and/or deduce) and how it happened (where we really have nothing but guesswork). For example, at some point, plate tectonics started (we can see evidence of this today so it must be true). How they started? No way of knowing as there is next to nothing left from that far back in history. And formation of the Earth is at least 700 Ma earlier than that.
You stated it as if to accept it as being mere fact.

When it comes right down to it, you can simply argue that we don't really know what happened to make the Earth as it is today, nor do we know how it happened; we can only theorize on either side of that spectrum. If you really want to get down to the nitty gritty.


#274    Setton

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 07:10 PM

View PostAlienated Being, on 25 October 2012 - 06:58 PM, said:

You stated it as if to accept it as being mere fact.

When it comes right down to it, you can simply argue that we don't really know what happened to make the Earth as it is today, nor do we know how it happened; we can only theorize on either side of that spectrum. If you really want to get down to the nitty gritty.

And we have progress :tsu:

'Good' is not the same as 'nice'.
'No, murder is running your broadsword through someone because he worships a different God to you... Or is that evangelism? I get confused.'
When they discover the centre of the universe, a lot of people are going to be disappointed - They are not it.
I don't object to the concept of a deity but I'm baffled by the notion of one that takes attendance.

#275    Ugly1

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 12:02 AM

View Postscowl, on 25 October 2012 - 04:31 PM, said:

But none of these things say anything about salvation.



Several verses say obeying the law isn't enough to guarantee salvation and there's quite a bit of confusion about what "the law" is exactly.


Proverbs is before the concept of salvation so it doesn't count!


But absence of sin doesn't guarantee salvation.



That's because if you pick up the Bible and start reading, you'll find anything but "love thy neighbor" in the first five books. The Israelites were commanded by God to commit genocide against their neighbors in order to take their land and to kill anyone who doesn't believe in God. Sometimes God got a little soft-hearted and ordered them to just enslave their neighbors (Leviticus 25:45). It's very clear to me that when the Old Testament encourages kindness to a "neighbor" (like in Leviticus 19:18 where the New Testament got the concept) it means "fellow Israelite", not people who don't worship God.

I suspect that in the New Testament these "neighbors" are also fellow Christians or potential Christians, not Romans or pagans or atheists who are to be shunned. That's how I interpret 2 Corinthians 6:14-15 anyway:

"Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? And what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? Or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?"

Then 2 Corinthians 6:17 drives the point home:

"Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the LORD, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you. "

I read that as "Give atheists a hard time. Don't invite them to your parties. Don't hang out with them at football games. Keep them out of your business organizations and your country clubs. They are 'unclean' and Jesus doesn't want you near them."

I had heard when I was younger that the salvation was only meant for Jews. Well, that was before I started reading on my own. There are many verses in which it was specifically instructed to teach the gentiles. Even the dogs get the scraps from their masters table.


#276    Mystic Crusader

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 12:35 AM

View PostUgly1, on 26 October 2012 - 12:02 AM, said:

Even the dogs get the scraps from their masters table.

That bible verse is very misleading, it refers to astrology and three constellations:

Canis Minor, Canis Major, and Canes Venatici

He is condemning two astrological signs with great haughtiness (Cancer and Virgo).

Edited by HavocWing, 26 October 2012 - 01:07 AM.

Thomas Paine wrote in The Age of Reason that “Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous execution, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be consistent that we called it the word of a demon, than the word of God."
http://www.astrology...hp?albumid=1164
http://www.astrology...ead.php?t=81593

#277    scowl

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 04:10 PM

View PostUgly1, on 26 October 2012 - 12:02 AM, said:

I had heard when I was younger that the salvation was only meant for Jews.

There's confusion because to the Jews the messiah will be a man who will become an undisputed leader and will reunite the tribes of Israel to reclaim the Promised Land among other things. Jesus didn't do anything like that and the concept of a man/God fusion goes against several things in the Old Testament so he wasn't popular with them.

Quote

Well, that was before I started reading on my own. There are many verses in which it was specifically instructed to teach the gentiles. Even the dogs get the scraps from their masters table.

For Christianity to survive, it had to expand its membership beyond the Jewish community or it would have been forgotten like other similar Jewish reform movements at the time. This was a tremendously successful idea. Once the Roman Empire declared Christianity its official religion, it was insured at least several hundred years of popularity. It was also able to survive adjustments during Medieval times and the Dark Ages right through the Industrial Age. It's a very malleable belief system.

On the "Do atheists get a hard time?" topic I found a Jesus quote that seems pretty clear to me. It's right after Matthew 10:34, Jesus's famous ode to peace and love: "Think not that I am come to send peace on Earth: I came not to send peace but a sword!" Jesus continues...

Mathew 10:35-36:
"For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household."

Mathew 10:37:
"He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me."

That's a unusually direct command from Jesus. He's telling Christians that if there is an atheist in your family you shouldn't "agree to disagree" with them to keep the peace. You must turn against them because they are your "foe". Even if it's a son or daughter who you love dearly, you must choose the Lord over them because the Lord will not allow you to love anyone more than him.


#278    Ugly1

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 04:13 PM

View PostHavocWing, on 26 October 2012 - 12:35 AM, said:

That bible verse is very misleading, it refers to astrology and three constellations:

Canis Minor, Canis Major, and Canes Venatici

He is condemning two astrological signs with great haughtiness (Cancer and Virgo).

Umm, no it doesn't. Lol.

Jesus: I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
25: Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
26: But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.
27:And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.
28:Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

If you don't want to accept that as being evidence that the gospel was meant for more than just Jews then let's take a look at a different bible verse.

Acts 9:15,  But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kins, and the children of Israel.


#279    Ugly1

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 04:29 PM

View Postscowl, on 26 October 2012 - 04:10 PM, said:

There's confusion because to the Jews the messiah will be a man who will become an undisputed leader and will reunite the tribes of Israel to reclaim the Promised Land among other things. Jesus didn't do anything like that and the concept of a man/God fusion goes against several things in the Old Testament so he wasn't popular with them.



For Christianity to survive, it had to expand its membership beyond the Jewish community or it would have been forgotten like other similar Jewish reform movements at the time. This was a tremendously successful idea. Once the Roman Empire declared Christianity its official religion, it was insured at least several hundred years of popularity. It was also able to survive adjustments during Medieval times and the Dark Ages right through the Industrial Age. It's a very malleable belief system.

On the "Do atheists get a hard time?" topic I found a Jesus quote that seems pretty clear to me. It's right after Matthew 10:34, Jesus's famous ode to peace and love: "Think not that I am come to send peace on Earth: I came not to send peace but a sword!" Jesus continues...

Mathew 10:35-36:
"For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household."

Mathew 10:37:
"He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me."

That's a unusually direct command from Jesus. He's telling Christians that if there is an atheist in your family you shouldn't "agree to disagree" with them to keep the peace. You must turn against them because they are your "foe". Even if it's a son or daughter who you love dearly, you must choose the Lord over them because the Lord will not allow you to love anyone more than him.

You need to read the entire parable to understand sayings like this.

Matthew 10:25: It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household?
26: Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.

So yes, if there is evil in your home bringing in god will turn Father against son, son against father. Beelzebub (Satan) is not going to just sit back while someone is being a Christian in the house and there just be peace. Say we are brothers, and you are off chanting in your room trying to summon a demon with an Ouiji board, and i'm in the next room meditating to god. We are going to have problems with eachother. Brother will be turned on brother.

Matthew 26:51 And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and smote off his ear.
52: Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: For all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.
53: Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?


#280    Ugly1

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 04:35 PM

View Postscowl, on 26 October 2012 - 04:10 PM, said:

There's confusion because to the Jews the messiah will be a man who will become an undisputed leader and will reunite the tribes of Israel to reclaim the Promised Land among other things. Jesus didn't do anything like that and the concept of a man/God fusion goes against several things in the Old Testament so he wasn't popular with them.



For Christianity to survive, it had to expand its membership beyond the Jewish community or it would have been forgotten like other similar Jewish reform movements at the time. This was a tremendously successful idea. Once the Roman Empire declared Christianity its official religion, it was insured at least several hundred years of popularity. It was also able to survive adjustments during Medieval times and the Dark Ages right through the Industrial Age. It's a very malleable belief system.

On the "Do atheists get a hard time?" topic I found a Jesus quote that seems pretty clear to me. It's right after Matthew 10:34, Jesus's famous ode to peace and love: "Think not that I am come to send peace on Earth: I came not to send peace but a sword!" Jesus continues...

Mathew 10:35-36:
"For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household."

Mathew 10:37:
"He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me."

That's a unusually direct command from Jesus. He's telling Christians that if there is an atheist in your family you shouldn't "agree to disagree" with them to keep the peace. You must turn against them because they are your "foe". Even if it's a son or daughter who you love dearly, you must choose the Lord over them because the Lord will not allow you to love anyone more than him.

And yes, you are correct. You must choose the Lord over them.

Hey I'm not saying that is easy! I'm not even saying that I could do that if it came down to choosing! But, I don't make the rules, I just play in the game. I think what is trying to be emphasized is that we are here for the blink of an eye then we are gone in the grand scheme of things.


#281    scowl

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 07:58 PM

View PostUgly1, on 26 October 2012 - 04:29 PM, said:

You need to read the entire parable to understand sayings like this.

Matthew 10:25: It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household?
26: Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.

So yes, if there is evil in your home bringing in god will turn Father against son, son against father. Beelzebub (Satan) is not going to just sit back while someone is being a Christian in the house and there just be peace. Say we are brothers, and you are off chanting in your room trying to summon a demon with an Ouiji board, and i'm in the next room meditating to god. We are going to have problems with eachother. Brother will be turned on brother.

Yes, but why would an atheist held any higher than a Satan-worshiper? I see nothing that says or implies one is better than the other, only that a person either believes in Jesus or they don't. If your children don't believe in Jesus you must choose to stop loving them. You are not allowed to say, "Well my kid doesn't believe in Jesus anymore but I still love him all the same." You're not allowed to love your atheist child.

Quote

Matthew 26:51 And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and smote off his ear.
52: Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: For all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.
53: Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

So you think the "sword" Jesus was referring to was the actual sword that appears seventeen chapters later, not a metaphorical sword? How was Jesus planning to send "the Earth" this actual sword as he said?

Quote

Hey I'm not saying that is easy! I'm not even saying that I could do that if it came down to choosing! But, I don't make the rules, I just play in the game. I think what is trying to be emphasized is that we are here for the blink of an eye then we are gone in the grand scheme of things.

Oddly another Christian here was scolding me for emphasizing Christianity's focus on salvation too much!


#282    Mr Walker

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 09:42 PM

View Postseishin, on 24 October 2012 - 01:42 PM, said:

Yeah, I don't think so and this is why... Children often don't even recognize what they are feeling. Hence, it is often useful to say to a child who is throwing a tantrum, "You look mad" (mimic their facial expression). This helps the child to identify whith what he or she is feeling. They do not have the vocabulary nor the intellect to know exactly what the problem is. They just know there is a problem! Thus, I do not believe that anyone is born with a innate knowledge/understanding of a god. this concept is simply beyond their faculties.

So, what happens is that someone, as in the example above, labels the situation/cause/"what-have-you" as being directly or indirectly related to a god and BAM! Said variable is or must be God. It is taught!

The god concept is a learned one, not an innate one.
Argue with the scientists not me. :innocent:  I never said it was innate, Like language the ability is innate  It is constructed within the childs mind by an understood process of thought. A child with no external exposure to the concept of god but with the ability to think using language WILL develop the concept of god.The y  "have to" to explain the natural environment and happenings around them because they lack data to otherwise interpret what is going on.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#283    Ugly1

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 11:27 PM

View Postscowl, on 26 October 2012 - 07:58 PM, said:

Yes, but why would an atheist held any higher than a Satan-worshiper? I see nothing that says or implies one is better than the other, only that a person either believes in Jesus or they don't. If your children don't believe in Jesus you must choose to stop loving them. You are not allowed to say, "Well my kid doesn't believe in Jesus anymore but I still love him all the same." You're not allowed to love your atheist child.



So you think the "sword" Jesus was referring to was the actual sword that appears seventeen chapters later, not a metaphorical sword? How was Jesus planning to send "the Earth" this actual sword as he said?



Oddly another Christian here was scolding me for emphasizing Christianity's focus on salvation too much!

I definitely think that the sword is a metaphorical sword. I was using the mention of the literal sword to show that Jesus did not mean that as a sword to murder with when he said that I come to bring the sword.

Where did I say that, or the bible say that you are not allowed to love your Atheist child? Jesus taught that you shall love your neighbor. I never read love your Christian neighbor only anywhere in the bible.

Regarding the other Christian scolding you; Who cares? I can call myself a doctor but it doesn't mean I am one or should be performing brain surgery on you. Christian is a pretty lose term these days. If it upset you that much then you should pray about it. :D   I hope you didn't take my post as scolding because of my use of exclamation marks. I tend to use those more than periods.


#284    Mr Walker

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 03:35 AM

View Postseishin, on 24 October 2012 - 02:25 PM, said:

Well, that's exactly the point isn't it? It's illogical; however, Walker doesn't see it that way.
It is not me who doesn't see it this way. I am just following science, as I do with evolution  and in all things.

All modern forms of science are illustrating how the human mind works, and its inherent connection to language. One significant sub set of these studies is called "The construction of belief" in humans.

A child must be taught how to speak which can occur simply by exposure to human speech. But as a child learns to speak it constructs symbolic attachments to words.  It uses its mind to create solutions which  are plausible and logical to it, given the knowledge data it posseses. It doesnt have ot be taugh how to do this. The mind plus the language skills of the mind cause it to happen as a natura;/spontaneous  product of our self aware sapience. Of course most kids are also either taught about or introduced to the concept of god. But if they are not, each one will inevitably construct it, in order to make sense of what it observes in its world.
Expert opinion is that this patterning of thought creates a predisposition to belief which endures into adulthood, and explains why approx 95% of all modern humans either have a belief in a deity or in a spiritual/paranormal/supernatural, element to the natural world.

Only about 5 % of modern adults state that they are atheists or non believers in both these things.  In the opinion of a range of scientists, such an enduring and powerful   statistic in the modern era must have a natural cause, not one based on education or indoctrination, which is by no means common or universal in our modern world.

This natural combination of causes creates a predisposition to belief in humans.  A lot of work has been done on identifying the complex and interconneceted causes of this. Again. search for "the construction of belief"

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#285    Mr Walker

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 03:43 AM

View PostZaraKitty, on 25 October 2012 - 09:31 AM, said:

"God is real! We should put prayer in the schools! BAN ABORTION!"
"..I don't believe in god."
"STOP FORCING YOUR BELIEFS ON ME!"
We havent quite got the technology to allow this, in place yet. But the good news is we are getting closer. :devil:
At the moment, short of intensive sensory deprivation, a comprehensive drug programme, and hypnotherapy, no one can force a belief on another person.  But sooooon !!!

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.




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