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Iranian police clash with protesters


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#31    Yamato

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 03:18 AM

Crazy market fluctuations and trading errors are prevalent in today's high velocity trading world.   Kraft Foods was a domestic example from earlier today.   I bring this up because prices and exchange rates are sentiment-driven, and sentiment is driven by irrational exuberance, propaganda and subterfuge among other things, especially in Iran.   A money center opened up in Iran recently where Iranians can exchange their Rials and it's turned into a fire sale of selling down their currency.  More sellers than buyers means lower prices.   This is the free market in action and with the protests we're seeing it's a good example of democracy too.   I would advise Iranians to resist their central bank which will no doubt try to print its way out of their crisis and let its currency come in now that its central bank has been unplugged from the global cartel of centralized thievery.   Independence is always tough in the near term, but it pays a mighty dividend before the end.

And here the OP is saying that violence is what will make a difference but that's what he says every day.   Economic warfare against a sovereign nation that has every bit as much right to a nuclear program as the US does (unlike nuclear rogues Israel, India, Pakistan, and North Korea) makes us not only aggressors but hypocrites who can't honor the treaties we sign.

It isn't just about turning the lights on for 80 million people, which is incredibly important in and of itself, though someone whose light switch always works might not realize that.   It's about principle, and owning up to one's commitments in a reliable consistent manner, or else the treaties we sign are worthless and the world won't trust what we say beyond what we force them to put up with.   If the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty isn't good enough for Israel who ignored it or isn't bad enough for Iran who signed it, then get together in a massive global conference and change the treaty.   Otherwise we're eviscerating our own agreement on both ends of this manufactured conflict.

Edited by Yamato, 04 October 2012 - 03:30 AM.

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela

#32    and then

and then

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 06:51 AM

View PostYamato, on 04 October 2012 - 03:18 AM, said:

Crazy market fluctuations and trading errors are prevalent in today's high velocity trading world.   Kraft Foods was a domestic example from earlier today.   I bring this up because prices and exchange rates are sentiment-driven, and sentiment is driven by irrational exuberance, propaganda and subterfuge among other things, especially in Iran.   A money center opened up in Iran recently where Iranians can exchange their Rials and it's turned into a fire sale of selling down their currency.  More sellers than buyers means lower prices.   This is the free market in action and with the protests we're seeing it's a good example of democracy too.   I would advise Iranians to resist their central bank which will no doubt try to print its way out of their crisis and let its currency come in now that its central bank has been unplugged from the global cartel of centralized thievery.   Independence is always tough in the near term, but it pays a mighty dividend before the end.

And here the OP is saying that violence is what will make a difference but that's what he says every day.   Economic warfare against a sovereign nation that has every bit as much right to a nuclear program as the US does (unlike nuclear rogues Israel, India, Pakistan, and North Korea) makes us not only aggressors but hypocrites who can't honor the treaties we sign.

It isn't just about turning the lights on for 80 million people, which is incredibly important in and of itself, though someone whose light switch always works might not realize that.   It's about principle, and owning up to one's commitments in a reliable consistent manner, or else the treaties we sign are worthless and the world won't trust what we say beyond what we force them to put up with.   If the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty isn't good enough for Israel who ignored it or isn't bad enough for Iran who signed it, then get together in a massive global conference and change the treaty.   Otherwise we're eviscerating our own agreement on both ends of this manufactured conflict.
Israel is not a signatory to the NPT precisely because Israel needed nukes and did not want inspectors.  Horror of horrors.  Iran DID sign the treaty and now is breaking their commitment not to produce a weapon.  At this point I really think Iran will have their bomb.  The world will casually walk down the road to war again and be stunned when it happens...again....  but this time won't be like the others.  And it really won't matter who blames who when the stuff starts flying.  The time for all that is before it began.

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#33    Yamato

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 06:55 AM

View Postand then, on 04 October 2012 - 06:51 AM, said:

Israel is not a signatory to the NPT precisely because Israel needed nukes and did not want inspectors.  Horror of horrors.
What you think Israel's excuse is doesn't matter.  Iran signed the treaty.  They have the right to a nuclear program.   Horror of horrors.

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela

#34    and then

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 07:06 AM

View PostYamato, on 04 October 2012 - 06:55 AM, said:

What you think Israel's excuse is doesn't matter.  Iran signed the treaty.  They have the right to a nuclear program.   Horror of horrors.
Yes, they have a right to use nuclear energy for peaceful purposes but they agreed NOT to build a bomb.  When they do the world will drop the sanctions and give them a pass because world leaders essentially are gutless until they have to show courage or be destroyed.  The wild card here is Benjamin Netanyahu.  IF he is the statesman I think he is then Iran won't get an untroubled pass to the club.  But if he truly is just another politician then the mullahs should be smiling soon.  All they need now is enough fuel stock to prepare for breakout.  They will keep enriching until they have sufficient stores and when all the other components are tested and ready it's only a matter of weeks to assemble the device(s).  My, won't everyone be surprised.

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#35    Yamato

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 08:32 AM

View Postand then, on 04 October 2012 - 07:06 AM, said:

Yes, they have a right to use nuclear energy for peaceful purposes but they agreed NOT to build a bomb.  When they do the world will drop the sanctions and give them a pass because world leaders essentially are gutless until they have to show courage or be destroyed.  The wild card here is Benjamin Netanyahu.  IF he is the statesman I think he is then Iran won't get an untroubled pass to the club.  But if he truly is just another politician then the mullahs should be smiling soon.  All they need now is enough fuel stock to prepare for breakout.  They will keep enriching until they have sufficient stores and when all the other components are tested and ready it's only a matter of weeks to assemble the device(s).  My, won't everyone be surprised.
They agreed not to build a bomb, they haven't built a bomb and there's no evidence that they are building a bomb.   They have a right to a nuclear program and the nuclear rogue Israel of all places has no right to interfere with their nuclear program.  Granted Israel's violent intolerance and terrorism in Iran already, it won't be a surprise that Iran takes the steps necessary to defend itself from the criminal aggressors in Israel.

Netanyahu is impotent.  Global pressure might stop Iran but Netanyahu's empty threats and pitter pat punches won't stop anything but Iran's second thoughts to continue their program.   The more he shuts up the better the chances would be of Iran coming around to our thinking.

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela

#36    shaddow134

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 11:29 AM

They don't have the capabillity for a strike against Iran,Netanyahu is hoping for the US to step in and back him up,the Iranian air defences are very robust and Isreal would lose quite a few aircraft unless they have stealth hidden away as well.Netanyahu is a pitbull with no teeth and he can snarl all he likes because no one is taking any notice..

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#37    OverSword

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 03:48 PM

And Then.  I asked you to name a country Iran has invaded.  You didn't because your view of them as a vicious aggressor is incorrect.  Like I do with American politicians I also do with Iran.  I don't pay much attention to what they say or have said, I look at what they do.  All of the rhetoric and anti Israel propaganda in the world does not count for one shot fired.

I showed you the article in the New York Times that showed the results of investigations by 16 American inteligence agencies report that there is no proof or reason to believe that Iran is building a bomb.

How you can defend your position with absolutely no facts to back you up is......


#38    and then

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 10:28 PM

View PostOverSword, on 04 October 2012 - 03:48 PM, said:

And Then.  I asked you to name a country Iran has invaded.  You didn't because your view of them as a vicious aggressor is incorrect.  Like I do with American politicians I also do with Iran.  I don't pay much attention to what they say or have said, I look at what they do.  All of the rhetoric and anti Israel propaganda in the world does not count for one shot fired.

I showed you the article in the New York Times that showed the results of investigations by 16 American inteligence agencies report that there is no proof or reason to believe that Iran is building a bomb.

How you can defend your position with absolutely no facts to back you up is......
So in the modern era of asymmetric warfare a country must invade another country to be a threat?  And I'm not sure what more I can say about Iran's intentions toward a bomb.  If you need documentation from an intel agency then you are correct - there is none.  But Iran also isn't allowing inspectors into the one area that would prove their intents...Parchin has a "vessel' that was built that is made for testing high explosives triggers for nukes.  They have practically razed the site and trucked away even the soil that was there.  That is proven from satellite intel.  At some point a little common sense has to be entered into.  You want proof that will stand up in a court and I think that is a ridiculous standard if a country genuinely wants to stop Iran before they actually have the bomb.  Those intel agencies said Iran was not BUILDING A BOMB.  I agree.  They are too shrewd to take that step just now.  The have to enrich sufficient uranium first. They also have to test warhead designs and explosives (Parchin) and finally they have to engineer a device that will fit atop one of their ballistic missiles.  When all of that work is complete then they are at "breakout"  A few weeks or less, depending on how many centrifuges are available and spinning 24/7 and then just assemble or BUILD a bomb.  The world has decided to allow Iran to have it's bomb and hope for the best.  Iran may wait 2 years before assembling a weapon or they may do so in 6 months but I have no doubt they are going to do it.  To believe otherwise is to accept that a totalitarian  theocracy is risking war and the loss of their revolution just to make the point that they can use nuclear power to generate electricity.  Really?  I mean...really?  If electricity generation and medical isotopes were the goal then they long ago were promised fuel for both uses and they refused.  The arguments over this have become tiresome for me.  If you have no problem with an Iranian nuke then I'm happy for you.  I believe other wise.  And the rhetoric that will appear here after Iran is proven to have a weapon is predictable as well.  A series of indignant comments about the RIGHT of Iran to such a weapon.  I agree that they have as much a right to nukes as Israel or anyone else - from a purely legalistic standpoint.  But Iran is aggressive - killing many hundreds through terror proxies and plotting constantly to kill more all over the world.  So three cheers for the mullahs and their shills in the west.  I don't care to discuss this any more since the argument is at a complete impasse.  Best wishes

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...




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