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Yes! (God is faithful)


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#1    markdohle

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 12:35 PM

Yes!
(God is faithful)


The myth of the spiritual life is that we will one day reach perfection.  If this is not believed consciously, then it is often operating on an unconscious level.  For after all did not Jesus say:  “Be you perfect as your Father is perfect”?  So willpower (the will-to-power), can become the central operative in this seeking of becoming better and then moving on to faultlessness.  Control, watchfulness, becomes the catch word, and well they should, but in the end there can be only disappointment for many and perhaps all.  For the desire to become better will invite struggle; bringing to light our actual lack of freedom which we perhaps failed to see in the past, but will soon become apparent from the very beginning of ones movement to deeper conversion.

As long as there is ignorance of ones state, then struggle is often missing. At least on a moral level that implies responsibility for ones actions and the affect it has on others. Which leads to not having the luxury of placing blame and exonerating oneself when challenged by those around us; in others words we learn to listen and to put aside our resistance.  Something which can take years to actually learn and put into practice, without having some kind of ego shattering response; normally called a hissy fit.  We find out that we are truly naked and discover it difficult to dress ourselves in the garments of virtue.  For humility after all is not about being simply submissive, but about being in touch with the truth about ourselves and not being afraid to admit it when it is brought to our attention.  This is not weakness but a specific type of courage that is often misunderstood and maligned.

Love of God and seeking to become more compassionate towards others, does not mean that sin is absent, and even some pretty heavy ones that could have roots so deep that they may take a lifetime to release.  They are a true thorn in the side and can cause some deep inner confrontation with both self hatred and despair.  These are necessary components to the spiritual life and each pilgrim will meet this differently.  It is in this struggle that growth comes, this paradox of seeking to become more loving and God centered and at the same time dealing with inner demons that for many give no rest.  Humility is the fruit of this purgatorial state, since the mirror of self knowledge is constantly being placed in front of us and the suffering will only decrease when it is embraced without rancor.

I suppose after years of being on the path…….. Slowly for some, more rapidly for others, that through the ups and downs, the darkness and the light, the moving back and forth on the course, there is one constant and that is the faithfulness of God.  The insight comes that it is grace that always brings us back; heals us and allows the light to once more to become apparent.  From this trust slowly comes to the fore.  Though it has to be consciously brought to mind, since interior habits have a life of their own and will continue to seek to torment and hinder.  So our suffering and failings only help to bring us deeper into trust and the constant “yes” of God.  It is we who at times dance away, twirl back, and then tap dance off again.  It is the love of God that is the rock that always stays in place. Our true foundation, that allows us too slowly overcome self hatred and contempt, to snail forward to the point when we can actually love our neighbor as ourselves.  For how can we love ourselves unless we have at least some self knowledge?  Love of self without that, is merely self conceit and leads to contempt for ‘our weaker brothers’; when in fact they are most often closer to the truth than the shallowly virtuous.   Suffering brings depth because it throws us on ourselves and takes away our complacency.  Well it is true for me, for there are perhaps those, the many, who don’t have to learn that way and if that is true I am very happy that they have such a smooth path.  Mine however is rocky, full of falls and very slow in the climbing.  Yet if I don’t fall how can I rise?  If I don’t know my wounds, how can I ask for healing?  If I am unaware of self destructive behaviors, how can I ask for forgiveness?   No, sad to say, for I wish it were otherwise, suffering seems to be a necessary part of our spiritual evolution, or again mine.

Also the doubt and the unanswered questions force us to think deeper and to make conscious choices about how and what we believe.  Not to do so can lead to become rigid and fearful in how responses are made when challenged by others.  Again each is unique in how this is done.  All paths are equal, just as long as we strive to seek truth and live it, no matter how often we fail. It is the getting up that is the trick and also the hidden grace offered; for God is always “yes”.


#2    Tutankhaten-pasheri

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 01:24 PM

Complicated, all these paths and years of searching. My Gods require nothing from me, well perhaps the occassional sacrifice. And as for morality, well, I would be worried if I, or anybody, needed the help of some god to be moral. Needing this god is admiting that you are inherently immoral and can only be moral with the help of this god. I believe we are all born inherently moral and, except for damaged people, do not need any god to tell us to be moral. This bible viewpoint implies very strongly that all the many generations that lived before this book was concocted, were immoral, and that those with a different view today are also immoral and need help...


#3    markdohle

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 01:39 PM

View PostAtentutankh-pasheri, on 07 October 2012 - 01:24 PM, said:

Complicated, all these paths and years of searching. My Gods require nothing from me, well perhaps the occassional sacrifice. And as for morality, well, I would be worried if I, or anybody, needed the help of some god to be moral. Needing this god is admiting that you are inherently immoral and can only be moral with the help of this god. I believe we are all born inherently moral and, except for damaged people, do not need any god to tell us to be moral. This bible viewpoint implies very strongly that all the many generations that lived before this book was concocted, were immoral, and that those with a different view today are also immoral and need help...

I think we are all for the part immoral and selfish.  Though we also seek the good.  However we more easily tend towards chaos and disorder as is shown by the state of our world, our societies and our history.  Grace is God's love, it fills what our hearts most yearn for and heals the soul.  Without God, we seek other gods; 'greed' and the 'will to power', perhaps being the most seductive and destructive.  I believe that to say I am a sinner is based on truth and it therefor sets me free, though the  the way rough in moving towards that; conversion is difficult at times,impossible without grace.  It is OK if you don't agree ;-), the world is filled with different ways and paths, I have learned to be a peace with that reality.  But for me, The Lord Jesus is my savior, not only for me but for all.  It is about relationship with love and being ever more filled with love, in the end that is what it is all about.  The reward of relationship with God, in loving others, is simply to love ever more deeply, a deep endless ocean that we dive into eternally if we wish....if not, then we stay on the beach for eternity.

Thank you for you comment.

peace
mark


#4    Tutankhaten-pasheri

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 03:33 PM

View Postmarkdohle, on 07 October 2012 - 01:39 PM, said:

I think we are all for the part immoral and selfish.  Though we also seek the good.  However we more easily tend towards chaos and disorder as is shown by the state of our world, our societies and our history.  Grace is God's love, it fills what our hearts most yearn for and heals the soul.  Without God, we seek other gods; 'greed' and the 'will to power', perhaps being the most seductive and destructive.  I believe that to say I am a sinner is based on truth and it therefor sets me free, though the  the way rough in moving towards that; conversion is difficult at times,impossible without grace.  It is OK if you don't agree ;-), the world is filled with different ways and paths, I have learned to be a peace with that reality.  But for me, The Lord Jesus is my savior, not only for me but for all.  It is about relationship with love and being ever more filled with love, in the end that is what it is all about.  The reward of relationship with God, in loving others, is simply to love ever more deeply, a deep endless ocean that we dive into eternally if we wish....if not, then we stay on the beach for eternity.

Thank you for you comment.

peace
mark

We need Chaos and Law, there must be a balance in the multiverse. Some are drawn only to Law, which by itself is cold and sterile. For myself a little bit of Chaos is necessary. What is important is not to do harm to others or the fabric of the multiverse. The problems come with different ideas on what constitutes harm. To some not praying 5 times a day causes harm, to others not believing in their particular god causes harm. Parts of your religion say that some normal human activity is harmful, yet commonsense says that this view is itself harmful. There will always be a clash here. For instance, is it really good to be a monk living in simple conditions and even perhaps not speaking. Yet many would say this is "godly". And is there any harm in getting drunk with Thor in Valhalla? I know which I would prefer.
Maintenance of Maat is important, not being a harmful person assists this. I mean no insult when I say that your path to Jesus is only part of the way. There is that which is beyond and behind all gods. His living image is in my avatar. This not clear? :D

Edited by Atentutankh-pasheri, 07 October 2012 - 03:37 PM.


#5    SpiritWriter

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 04:11 PM

View PostAtentutankh-pasheri, on 07 October 2012 - 03:33 PM, said:

We need Chaos and Law, there must be a balance in the multiverse. Some are drawn only to Law, which by itself is cold and sterile. For myself a little bit of Chaos is necessary. What is important is not to do harm to others or the fabric of the multiverse. The problems come with different ideas on what constitutes harm. To some not praying 5 times a day causes harm, to others not believing in their particular god causes harm. Parts of your religion say that some normal human activity is harmful, yet commonsense says that this view is itself harmful. There will always be a clash here. For instance, is it really good to be a monk living in simple conditions and even perhaps not speaking. Yet many would say this is "godly". And is there any harm in getting drunk with Thor in Valhalla? I know which I would prefer.
Maintenance of Maat is important, not being a harmful person assists this. I mean no insult when I say that your path to Jesus is only part of the way. There is that which is beyond and behind all gods. His living image is in my avatar. This not clear? :D

What are the Chaoses that don't harm people or the universes?

I have heard this argument before and my assumption that Chaos, when practiced in harmony, or for the growth of humanity would perhaps be to support people oppressed, to fight against the system that controls them in large or minor scales. I can understand that people all have their own unique path and that "Jesus" is not the way for them. But some, with the understanding of righteousness, and in a lot of cases God, choose darkness and destruction, and although they 'preach' chaos as something beneficial they are actually committing harm and using that as an excuse to it being ok.

This is what I have seen at least. So I do wonder, when I hear people speak this way: What are these Chaoses?

The letter kills but The Spirit gives life. 2 Corinthians 3:6

Non-ambiguity and non-contradiction are one sided and thus unsuited to express the incomprehensible. -Jung

#6    markdohle

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 05:43 PM

View PostAtentutankh-pasheri, on 07 October 2012 - 03:33 PM, said:

We need Chaos and Law, there must be a balance in the multiverse. Some are drawn only to Law, which by itself is cold and sterile. For myself a little bit of Chaos is necessary. What is important is not to do harm to others or the fabric of the multiverse. The problems come with different ideas on what constitutes harm. To some not praying 5 times a day causes harm, to others not believing in their particular god causes harm. Parts of your religion say that some normal human activity is harmful, yet commonsense says that this view is itself harmful. There will always be a clash here. For instance, is it really good to be a monk living in simple conditions and even perhaps not speaking. Yet many would say this is "godly". And is there any harm in getting drunk with Thor in Valhalla? I know which I would prefer.
Maintenance of Maat is important, not being a harmful person assists this. I mean no insult when I say that your path to Jesus is only part of the way. There is that which is beyond and behind all gods. His living image is in my avatar. This not clear? :D

Using others, abusing them, hating them harming is evil.  To love, truly, would do away with abuse and people would not be objects to move around.  Self destructive behavior is sinful, immoral because it is bad for all involved.  We also use "sinful behavior" to escape from the pain of life, therefore creating more suffering and multiple problems to deal with....hence the state of the world.  The new life that we are called to by Jesus Christ is a life without fear, without shame, but that comes only after we admit that we need grace, healing and help.

I will look up "Maat" so I can understand you better.  Language is a help and a barrier at the same time ;-).

Peace
Mark


#7    Tutankhaten-pasheri

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 06:11 PM

View PostSpiritWriter, on 07 October 2012 - 04:11 PM, said:

What are the Chaoses that don't harm people or the universes?

I have heard this argument before and my assumption that Chaos, when practiced in harmony, or for the growth of humanity would perhaps be to support people oppressed, to fight against the system that controls them in large or minor scales. I can understand that people all have their own unique path and that "Jesus" is not the way for them. But some, with the understanding of righteousness, and in a lot of cases God, choose darkness and destruction, and although they 'preach' chaos as something beneficial they are actually committing harm and using that as an excuse to it being ok.

This is what I have seen at least. So I do wonder, when I hear people speak this way: What are these Chaoses?

Chaos is that from which emerged Ra on the blue lotus of Nefertem.

I reject any concept of Satan or Hell or sin. Chaos is not an evil force, it is simply that which is formless and primieval. At one end of a spectrum we have the aesthetic monk living on lentils and water, praying all day, yet having being more like a robot than a fully formed individual. He is like a perfect marble statue, yet somehow lifeless. At the other end we have a disolute serial killer, caring nothing for anybody except himself. Both are not normal, not fully human, and both would kill you. The serial killer because that is what he does, the monk because, if he has the ear of power, and over the years they have, will whisper to the temporal power that certain people are "bad" and must be liquidated. Extreme Law and extreme Chaos are bad for us. Going too far in either direction is dangerous. We all, usually have some chaos in us. It is the urge to drive faster than we should, the urge to eat just one more chocolate, the urge to party, even the urge to climb mountains and adventure. We cannot be all fun all the time and we cannot be sour prudes and censors. There must be a universal balance. This is Maat, this is also the duality of Ra-Horakhty/Khonsu etc. (yes,yes, debatable by Egytpologists :D ). So you see, Law is seriousness, which taken to extreme is death, and Chaos is recklesness, which also in it's extreme leads to death. The correct path is down the middle, but being mortal we sometimes stray to one side or the other. Are you a Roundhead or a Cavalier? a sour withered prune or a party animal? are you with Law or Chaos? I think most of us are a bit of both.

Edited by Atentutankh-pasheri, 07 October 2012 - 06:14 PM.


#8    markdohle

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 08:40 PM

View PostAtentutankh-pasheri, on 07 October 2012 - 06:11 PM, said:

Chaos is that from which emerged Ra on the blue lotus of Nefertem.

I reject any concept of Satan or Hell or sin. Chaos is not an evil force, it is simply that which is formless and primieval. At one end of a spectrum we have the aesthetic monk living on lentils and water, praying all day, yet having being more like a robot than a fully formed individual. He is like a perfect marble statue, yet somehow lifeless. At the other end we have a disolute serial killer, caring nothing for anybody except himself. Both are not normal, not fully human, and both would kill you. The serial killer because that is what he does, the monk because, if he has the ear of power, and over the years they have, will whisper to the temporal power that certain people are "bad" and must be liquidated. Extreme Law and extreme Chaos are bad for us. Going too far in either direction is dangerous. We all, usually have some chaos in us. It is the urge to drive faster than we should, the urge to eat just one more chocolate, the urge to party, even the urge to climb mountains and adventure. We cannot be all fun all the time and we cannot be sour prudes and censors. There must be a universal balance. This is Maat, this is also the duality of Ra-Horakhty/Khonsu etc. (yes,yes, debatable by Egytpologists :D ). So you see, Law is seriousness, which taken to extreme is death, and Chaos is recklesness, which also in it's extreme leads to death. The correct path is down the middle, but being mortal we sometimes stray to one side or the other. Are you a Roundhead or a Cavalier? a sour withered prune or a party animal? are you with Law or Chaos? I think most of us are a bit of both.

Yes we are a bit of both, the monk and the serial killer as well.  Archetypal images are either black or white, good or evil, so even though people carry them, like doctor and policeman, they are all human and not just 'that'.  I know some monks, they are just human, no matter the archetype.  Evil is not chaos, chaos can be creative, evil is just destructive.  The Catholic church has had 2000 years of experience with the demonic, so I would not rule out that reality.  Evil consumes and is always empty, nothing good comes from evil, no chaos.  Evil empires want total uniformity and control over their subjects, freedom and those societies that believe in that are the ones that have chaos.

peace
mark


#9    SpiritWriter

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 10:16 PM

View PostAtentutankh-pasheri, on 07 October 2012 - 06:11 PM, said:

Chaos is that from which emerged Ra on the blue lotus of Nefertem.

I reject any concept of Satan or Hell or sin. Chaos is not an evil force, it is simply that which is formless and primieval. At one end of a spectrum we have the aesthetic monk living on lentils and water, praying all day, yet having being more like a robot than a fully formed individual. He is like a perfect marble statue, yet somehow lifeless. At the other end we have a disolute serial killer, caring nothing for anybody except himself. Both are not normal, not fully human, and both would kill you. The serial killer because that is what he does, the monk because, if he has the ear of power, and over the years they have, will whisper to the temporal power that certain people are "bad" and must be liquidated. Extreme Law and extreme Chaos are bad for us. Going too far in either direction is dangerous. We all, usually have some chaos in us. It is the urge to drive faster than we should, the urge to eat just one more chocolate, the urge to party, even the urge to climb mountains and adventure. We cannot be all fun all the time and we cannot be sour prudes and censors. There must be a universal balance. This is Maat, this is also the duality of Ra-Horakhty/Khonsu etc. (yes,yes, debatable by Egytpologists :D ). So you see, Law is seriousness, which taken to extreme is death, and Chaos is recklesness, which also in it's extreme leads to death. The correct path is down the middle, but being mortal we sometimes stray to one side or the other. Are you a Roundhead or a Cavalier? a sour withered prune or a party animal? are you with Law or Chaos? I think most of us are a bit of both.

I believe that there is an outright level of 'sin' that is to the moral extent of not being acceptable as you as a human being allows it. The concept of embracing chaos, although we see that chaos exists, still does not make sense to me. I see we have a different understanding because we studied different forms. But I believe that choas is the problems that need to be fixed. People want to blame their behavior, is what I see: Oh I believe in Choas so its ok for me to cheat on my wife, its ok to lie, to hurt people emotionally, as long as its not physically. etc... and whatever else act is 'immoral'.

I do not argue that we are moral creatures instinctively - I agree with you there.

When you say absolute law has no flavor, this is not an adequate response, in my opinion the the question I asked. What type of Chaos is permissible, on the 'moral' standard that each of us supposedly have?

Edited by SpiritWriter, 07 October 2012 - 10:19 PM.

The letter kills but The Spirit gives life. 2 Corinthians 3:6

Non-ambiguity and non-contradiction are one sided and thus unsuited to express the incomprehensible. -Jung

#10    Tutankhaten-pasheri

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 10:23 PM

View Postmarkdohle, on 07 October 2012 - 08:40 PM, said:

Yes we are a bit of both, the monk and the serial killer as well.  Archetypal images are either black or white, good or evil, so even though people carry them, like doctor and policeman, they are all human and not just 'that'.  I know some monks, they are just human, no matter the archetype.  Evil is not chaos, chaos can be creative, evil is just destructive.  The Catholic church has had 2000 years of experience with the demonic, so I would not rule out that reality.  Evil consumes and is always empty, nothing good comes from evil, no chaos.  Evil empires want total uniformity and control over their subjects, freedom and those societies that believe in that are the ones that have chaos.

peace
mark

And the purpose of "The Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith". Is this not a tool to enforce uniformity and control over the subjects of the Pope. I think the 2,000 years of the Church having experience of the demonic is actually 2,000 years of supressing the old religions. Hmm, and killing many tens of thousands of "witches". Yet that is another topic.

In regard to the first two paragraphs of your opening statement, it seems your religion perhaps needs more than ten commandments, that adherents can exercise better "Control and watchfulness". Ancient Egyptians had 42, though they called them "negative confessions". So perhaps while borrowing the concept of monotheism and stealing the imagery of Isis and Horus, tsk tsk :yes:  you should have taken more in order too better achieve the "spiritual life". There is nothing wrong in what you have written, all is self evident except for your rather strange god. I think all you want already existed two thousand years ago, yet you destroyed everything. Been a long time rebuilding.... been a long time sleeping, waiting. This world destroys itself, the abrahamic religions fight within themselves and with each other. The atheists shout rude words from the sidelines, and slowly move into the fight. Chaos will ensue, there will be a fracture in the world, and from the chaos..........................


#11    Tutankhaten-pasheri

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 10:27 PM

View PostSpiritWriter, on 07 October 2012 - 10:16 PM, said:

When you say absolute law has no flavor, this is not an adequate response, in my opinion the the question I asked. What type of Chaos is permissible, on the 'moral' standard that each of us supposedly have?

That you do no harm to others


#12    SpiritWriter

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 10:40 PM

View PostAtentutankh-pasheri, on 07 October 2012 - 10:27 PM, said:

That you do no harm to others

That is very good. I just don't see how not doing harm to others would be considered Choas then...

Is this term any occurance agains the Mosiac Law? Which Law? The current Law of the town?

There are many things that hurt people, if we don't address our relationships with them. If you are ok with every relationship you have, and you are not harming anyone, or the effect of any of your actions is not harming anyone (as in making decisions from them from the court, employer, any after-effect of your direct action, even down the line) - then to me this is not Choas..

I do apologize for so many questions. I think I just like to know. That's why I like this website - it seems so diverse in understanding.

One more question:

Chaos, what Law does this not adhere to?

The letter kills but The Spirit gives life. 2 Corinthians 3:6

Non-ambiguity and non-contradiction are one sided and thus unsuited to express the incomprehensible. -Jung

#13    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 10:41 PM

I know this is a bit off topic..but isn't there a hymn called -  God is faithful..and the words go a little like - Yes he is faithful, our god is faithful?   Sigh.. to think I was once in a choir  and I cannot recall the hymns ...



PS  I cheated to get into the school choir...I mimed  my friends voice  while the teacher walked and listened..  It got me out of class for a while  lol

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#14    markdohle

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 11:22 PM

View PostBeckys_Mom, on 07 October 2012 - 10:41 PM, said:

I know this is a bit off topic..but isn't there a hymn called -  God is faithful..and the words go a little like - Yes he is faithful, our god is faithful?   Sigh.. to think I was once in a choir  and I cannot recall the hymns ...



PS  I cheated to get into the school choir...I mimed  my friends voice  while the teacher walked and listened..  It got me out of class for a while  lol

No surprised :innocent:

Peace
mark


#15    markdohle

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 11:32 PM

View PostAtentutankh-pasheri, on 07 October 2012 - 10:23 PM, said:

And the purpose of "The Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith". Is this not a tool to enforce uniformity and control over the subjects of the Pope. I think the 2,000 years of the Church having experience of the demonic is actually 2,000 years of supressing the old religions. Hmm, and killing many tens of thousands of "witches". Yet that is another topic.

In regard to the first two paragraphs of your opening statement, it seems your religion perhaps needs more than ten commandments, that adherents can exercise better "Control and watchfulness". Ancient Egyptians had 42, though they called them "negative confessions". So perhaps while borrowing the concept of monotheism and stealing the imagery of Isis and Horus, tsk tsk :yes:  you should have taken more in order too better achieve the "spiritual life". There is nothing wrong in what you have written, all is self evident except for your rather strange god. I think all you want already existed two thousand years ago, yet you destroyed everything. Been a long time rebuilding.... been a long time sleeping, waiting. This world destroys itself, the abrahamic religions fight within themselves and with each other. The atheists shout rude words from the sidelines, and slowly move into the fight. Chaos will ensue, there will be a fracture in the world, and from the chaos..........................

For a group to surive there has to be some boundary, saying beyond this line you become something else, or belong to another group.  Besides we tend to fragment, people seldom agree, so something needs to be put in place to implement some conformity.  That does not in any way dictate life, each person is responsible for the depth of his understanding of his faith or he can be spoon fed.  Cultrual faith is ok as long as the society is not fragmented like ours.  Today, we all need to understand where we come from and what we believe.

Your take on history is not correct.  Rome fell from within, it was Christian Monastaries that kept knowledge going for centuries after Rome ceased to be a world power.  Towns grew up around Monastaries, farming was developed by monks.  Hospitals were created as well as higher centers of learning. There was also great art. That is not saying that there were no serious problems...there were on all levels, but that is the way things are in this world, should not be a surprise.

Also the Jews and Christian did not borrow from pagan myths.  Most scholars of today reject that kind of thinking, though it is still popular in our world today.

We all follow something, a group, a philosophy or ideology, each has boundaries, these do not limit life but actually allow for depth to be developed.  The Christian faith has a long  history, a good one, a checkered one as well, there is great wisdom within it and the gospel of Jesus Christ is preached, if not always followed, which does not surprise me....I know what is within me, I know what I am capable of, I know I am a sinner and in need of grace, which is the Love of Jesus Christ freely given.  That goes for all I believe and for all institutions.

peace
mark

Edited by markdohle, 07 October 2012 - 11:33 PM.





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