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Twelve Years in Afghanistan


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#16    Lilly

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 01:24 PM

IMO all western forces should leave and let the Afghan people sort it out. The main issue was that they were harbouring Al Quada, we've pretty much ruined Al Quada's stronghold there. If the Afghan people want the Taliban back there's really nothing the west is going to be able to do about it in the long run.

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#17    joc

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 01:39 PM

View PostLilly, on 08 October 2012 - 01:24 PM, said:

IMO all western forces should leave and let the Afghan people sort it out. The main issue was that they were harbouring Al Quada, we've pretty much ruined Al Quada's stronghold there. If the Afghan people want the Taliban back there's really nothing the west is going to be able to do about it in the long run.

Perhaps Afghanistan really is where Empires go to die.

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#18    Yamato

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 08:15 AM

There's nothing to keep Al Qaeda from returning to Afghanistan en mass the moment after we leave.   And so what?   I can't think of a better place for them than a primitive pile of rocks like Afghanistan.

"The power to declare war, including the power of judging the causes of war, is fully and exclusively vested in the Legislature.  The Executive has no right, in any case, to decide the question" ~ James Madison
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#19    spud the mackem

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 09:42 AM

And another 12 years aint going to make any difference,they'll still be at it whether we go or stay.Its unfortunate that our Lads have to die for a lost cause,through desk bound Politicians.

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#20    The Mule

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 09:59 AM

The whole point of Afghanistan is to have troops on Iran's eastern border.

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#21    and then

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 11:42 AM

View PostThe Mule, on 09 October 2012 - 09:59 AM, said:

The whole point of Afghanistan is to have troops on Iran's eastern border.
If that's the strategy then we're screwed in a few more months.  Most of them are leaving.  I know that some here believe that we are interested in invading Iran but I cannot see it.  A country with a population of 80+ million?  It would make Iraq and Afghanistan seem like fist fights.  No way it works that I can imagine...but then I'm a bit dull sometimes ;)

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#22    Uncle Sam

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 02:14 PM

This is what happens when you fight an organization that will do anything they can to win even if it means putting their family, friends, and community in harm's way. These people don't fight in conventional warfare means like using uniforms, bases, formations, brigades, careful planning, protecting civilians, and show of force that usually comes with National Militaries. They wear civilian clothes, use crowds for cover, use suicidal vests, threaten civilians to protect them and harbor them, feed off the hate of collateral deaths, don't care for civilian causalities, and actually try to cause as much damage and death as possible regardless if it military personal or not.

Most military codes doesn't allow for them to fire unless fired upon, even if the militants are standing in front of them without weapons. Also they must walk an razor thin line that involves limiting civilian causalities and if it does happen, they are punish for it. There is no clear image of enemy in Afghanistan, attacks can come from nowhere and everywhere at the same time. The military also can't use weapons designed to take out entire city blocks or level anything in their path, they must go at it on foot or lightly armored vehicles. Let's face it, defenses and armor in Afghanistan has been hampered since the beginning by politicians who care about the dollar sign than soldier lives.

It doesn't matter if you got the strongest army in the world, you can't end a war like this in days or a couple of years, it is a long lasting cycle of death and hate by those you are ordered to fight. Honestly if it was me, I would order the capture and detain of militants by a secret military designed to neutralize threats. All militants captures and neutralize will mean one less militant, their families will just think they were kill off by their fellow terrorists. Seems to be the only way to win this war...

Edited by Uncle Sam, 09 October 2012 - 02:18 PM.

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#23    spud the mackem

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 03:44 PM

View PostUncle Sam, on 09 October 2012 - 02:14 PM, said:

This is what happens when you fight an organization that will do anything they can to win even if it means putting their family, friends, and community in harm's way. These people don't fight in conventional warfare means like using uniforms, bases, formations, brigades, careful planning, protecting civilians, and show of force that usually comes with National Militaries. They wear civilian clothes, use crowds for cover, use suicidal vests, threaten civilians to protect them and harbor them, feed off the hate of collateral deaths, don't care for civilian causalities, and actually try to cause as much damage and death as possible regardless if it military personal or not.

Most military codes doesn't allow for them to fire unless fired upon, even if the militants are standing in front of them without weapons. Also they must walk an razor thin line that involves limiting civilian causalities and if it does happen, they are punish for it. There is no clear image of enemy in Afghanistan, attacks can come from nowhere and everywhere at the same time. The military also can't use weapons designed to take out entire city blocks or level anything in their path, they must go at it on foot or lightly armored vehicles. Let's face it, defenses and armor in Afghanistan has been hampered since the beginning by politicians who care about the dollar sign than soldier lives.

It doesn't matter if you got the strongest army in the world, you can't end a war like this in days or a couple of years, it is a long lasting cycle of death and hate by those you are ordered to fight. Honestly if it was me, I would order the capture and detain of militants by a secret military designed to neutralize threats. All militants captures and neutralize will mean one less militant, their families will just think they were kill off by their fellow terrorists. Seems to be the only way to win this war...
  Hi Uncle Sam, Good post,but as I have said before, these Afghanies have been infighting for a 1000 years,and will continue to do so for another 1000.The last force to sort them out was Genghis Khan and his mob,because they also thought life was cheap.The Western alliance has no chance of "winning" this conflict, a strategic withdrawal would be good,and let them get on with it. We dont have to "lose face" over this. cheers S.T.M

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(2) try your second best, ........if that dont work
(3) give up you aint gonna win

#24    and then

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 07:50 AM

View Postspud the mackem, on 09 October 2012 - 03:44 PM, said:

Hi Uncle Sam, Good post,but as I have said before, these Afghanies have been infighting for a 1000 years,and will continue to do so for another 1000.The last force to sort them out was Genghis Khan and his mob,because they also thought life was cheap.The Western alliance has no chance of "winning" this conflict, a strategic withdrawal would be good,and let them get on with it. We dont have to "lose face" over this. cheers S.T.M
When the Russians were there they had a strategy of dropping mines that were camouflaged as dolls and other toys designed to maim - not kill - children.  When an army as brutal as THAT could not win, it was pointless going in to imagine that a civilized country could prevail.  In future, the 3 D's:  DEPLOY, DESTROY, DEPART

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#25    spud the mackem

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 09:21 AM

View Postand then, on 11 October 2012 - 07:50 AM, said:

When the Russians were there they had a strategy of dropping mines that were camouflaged as dolls and other toys designed to maim - not kill - children.  When an army as brutal as THAT could not win, it was pointless going in to imagine that a civilized country could prevail.  In future, the 3 D's:  DEPLOY, DESTROY, DEPART
   The Russians went in to sort them out and failed,we went in to overcome oppression of the Taliban against ordinary citizens,and start a Democracy,but the Taliban go undercover and have their people join the Police to cause mayhem.So the best thing to do is get out and leave them to sort it out,but I guess their Gov't is too weak,so the Talban will prevail in the end.Our Gov't haven't got the guts to say enough is enough,and get out,but the Afghanies will still continue to grow opium poppies and cause world misery whether we are there or not.So whats the point of trying to help people who dont want to be helped.When we leave they will still continue to kill each other as its hereditary.We tried the same in Iraq but they still continue to kill each other.

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#26    Corp

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 03:47 PM

View PostThe Mule, on 09 October 2012 - 09:59 AM, said:

The whole point of Afghanistan is to have troops on Iran's eastern border.

Why does Italy care about Iran? They're leading operations in western Afghanistan after all.

War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things: the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth a war, is much worse...A man who has nothing which he is willing to fight for, nothing which he cares more about than he does about his personal safety, is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.

#27    zebra99

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 05:10 PM

The initial invasion nearly had the situation in hand, before the stupid decision was made to divert forces and munitions to invade Iraq.Giving the Taliban the time and opportunity to reorganise,rearm  and retaliate with a vengeance.
As for Iraq...After kicking Saddam out of Kuwait and having the opportunity to easily wipe out his army. We didn't take Bagdhad, left the man in power and withdrew....That must be one of the biggest c*** ups in history leading to tens of billions wasted in a second invasion.
Would we have halted at the Rhine and left Hitler in power in Berlin?...would we hell.

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