185 replies to this topic

[Dying Seraph]

Greetings Seeker,
Looking further into this Pam Reynolds issue, (again this is not my profession) a couple of things emerge. Indeed even scientists appear to have a hard time explaining her very rare case. In looking into her experience she appears to have gone through an NDE and an OBE.

This link, although may not resolve the Pam Reynolds issue directly, it provides at least a healthy skeptics view on it IMO. http://science.howst...after-death.htm <--How Stuff Works

SINcerely,

[Seeker79]

 Alienated Being, on 10 October 2012 - 01:54 AM, said:

There is no logic in an afterlife, my friend. Nor is there logic in providing fantastical explanations for something that already has numerous scientific explanations available for it. It is not my fault that you wish to take the side of fantasy, instead of waking up and smelling the beautiful aroma of reality.

Snip

Edited by Seeker79, 10 October 2012 - 05:39 AM.

[Seeker79]

 Alienated Being, on 10 October 2012 - 01:54 AM, said:

There is no logic in an afterlife, my friend. Nor is there logic in providing fantastical explanations for something that already has numerous scientific explanations available for it. It is not my fault that you wish to take the side of fantasy, instead of waking up and smelling the beautiful aroma of reality.

Fantastical? "numerouse ----scientific ( ahemm ... Science is not conjecture, it needs proof..., you really ment materialist inturpretations.. Didn't you?  )---- explanations"?  ... I thought that numerouse interpretations was one of the arguments against the validity/reality of NDEs. :devil

Why is there no logic in an afterlife, can you elaborate or is this an opinion?

[Seeker79]

 Dying Seraph, on 10 October 2012 - 05:18 AM, said:

Greetings Seeker,
Looking further into this Pam Reynolds issue, (again this is not my profession) a couple of things emerge. Indeed even scientists appear to have a hard time explaining her very rare case. In looking into her experience she appears to have gone through an NDE and an OBE.

This link, although may not resolve the Pam Reynolds issue directly, it provides at least a healthy skeptics view on it IMO. http://science.howst...after-death.htm <--How Stuff Works

SINcerely,

I know all about the skeptics view.... I have been over most arguments a dozen times, I have actually read black mores book.. Have you? The arguments are unsubstantiated rhetoric. And the case is not that unique... Its virtue is how documented it is and deep the subject is in an actual rare proceedure with experienced doctors reporting.

[Seeker79]

 Taylor Reints, on 10 October 2012 - 01:55 AM, said:

To be fair, Dying Seraph stated a logical explanation for NDEs and your rebuttal concerned Pam Reynolds. I posted a link of arguments against Pam Reynold's case, though. So we're running in circles.

To be fair.., wiki and rhetoric dosn't cut it. Trust me there are much better critiques than what's on wiki.., if you want I will cut the wiki critique to logical tatters.. Just say the word, and I'll put in the time.

Edited by Seeker79, 10 October 2012 - 05:53 AM.

[Dying Seraph]

 Seeker79, on 10 October 2012 - 05:45 AM, said:

I know all about the skeptics view.... I have been over most arguments a dozen times, I have actually read black mores book.. Have you? The arguments are unsubstantiated rhetoric. And the case is not that unique... Its virtue is how documented it is and deep the subject is in an actual rare proceedure with experienced doctors reporting.

Greetings Seeker,
No I have not. Only fragments. In regards to unsubstantiated rhetoric...can't the same be said for those attempting to convey this as "spiritual?" It's the same banter back and forth so your statement mirrors itself does it not? What answer does spirituality contain?

Back to the topic in general, since you mention Blackmore I presume Skeptikal Inquirer, to present a bit of her skeptical stance for those unfamiliar, hypoxia decrease of oxygen to the brain. Blackmore attempts to present research that "neural noise and retino-cortical mapping'" explain the sensation of the tunnel/light phenomina, the release of endorphins explains the "peacefulness", and cerebral anoxia explains the auditory phenomina. She also asserts that a drug ketamine produces almost the same sensation as NDE

You've asked us...how about you present indubible evidence of spiritualism at hand? Or is it just as subjective?

SINcerely,

Edited by Dying Seraph, 10 October 2012 - 06:02 AM.

[Seeker79]

 Dying Seraph, on 10 October 2012 - 02:00 AM, said:

Greetings Seeker,
In regards to the 60 degrees issue, there remains a issue. IF an individual is in a coma or declared brain dead that would be a matter of NDE books which another member presented. The one I suggested demonstrates the power of the brain. Just to clarify.
As this is not my profession and only recent hobby I can only speculate  and would leave this arguing madness to those more qualified.
I posit a question to you, if the brain is cooled or in that "frozen state" does the individual still not feel? They are paralyzed is the impression I get. I could be wrong however if they are in a frozen state it wouldn't negate the brain from having some sort of activity. Again I'll leave it up to those with the qualifications to discuss such.

Edit: This article makes good arguments for spiritual-soul and consciousness in the brain.
Scientist: Mind Continues After Brain Dies
REUTERS Limited
June 29 - A British scientist studying heart attack patients says he is finding evidence that suggests consciousness may continue after the brain has stopped functioning, and a patient is clinically dead.
The research, presented to scientists last week at the California Institute of Technology (Caltech), resurrects the debate over whether there is life after death and whether there is such a thing as the human soul.
"The studies are very significant in that we have a group of people with no brain function ... who have well-structured, lucid thought processes with reasoning and memory formation at a time when their brains are shown not to function," Sam Parnia, one of two doctors from Southampton General Hospital in England who have been studying so-called near-death experiences (NDEs), told Reuters in an interview.

Link here, -->http://aleroy.com/FAQz19.htm

SINcerely,

Well... Yeah. But I thought you were arguing against the proposition for some reason. The reason I'm here and rather armed, is that I have a unique experirential perspective.

The evidence is stacking up... But the rhetoric will never stop,

[Dying Seraph]

 Seeker79, on 10 October 2012 - 06:11 AM, said:

Well... Yeah. But I thought you were arguing against the proposition for some reason. The reason I'm here and rather armed, is that I have a unique experirential perspective.

The evidence is stacking up... But the rhetoric will never stop,

Present it then! Answer my question. If you have some magical proof that spiritualism finally has evidence better then scientific attempts to explain...stop sitting on it staking it up. I'm all ears. I'm sure your evidence would silence us skeptics so please by all means...

In any event the offer remains for you to prove it instead of shooting back more rhetoric. At least science has attempted to explain. Spirituality only explains the situation (ie tunnels of light etc.) it does NOT IMO anyway explain the more important WHY or HOW.


SINcerely,

Edited by Dying Seraph, 10 October 2012 - 06:22 AM.

[Seeker79]

 Dying Seraph, on 10 October 2012 - 06:00 AM, said:

Greetings Seeker,
No I have not. Only fragments. In regards to unsubstantiated rhetoric...can't the same be said for those attempting to convey this as "spiritual?" It's the same banter back and forth so your statement mirrors itself does it not? What answer does spirituality contain?

Back to the topic in general, since you mention Blackmore I presume Skeptikal Inquirer, to present a bit of her skeptical stance for those unfamiliar, hypoxia decrease of oxygen to the brain. Blackmore attempts to present research that "neural noise and retino-cortical mapping'" explain the sensation of the tunnel/light phenomina, the release of endorphins explains the "peacefulness", and cerebral anoxia explains the auditory phenomina. She also asserts that a drug ketamine produces almost the same sensation as NDE

You've asked us...how about you present indubible evidence of spiritualism at hand? Or is it just as subjective?

SINcerely,

I understand the need for an explanation. The problem is that one cannot just spew scientific mabies/jargon and call it an explanation. And that's it. In most cases it is what it apears to be unless prooven otherwise. something drawn from a materialist premise begs the question.

Ketamine? deprivation? Induced states in the laboratory?

Non of it is logical. The laboratory can make you feel wet, that dosn't mean "wet" dosnt exist. It only validates the existence of wetness because you CAN experience it. Think about it for a while...

[Dying Seraph]

 Seeker79, on 10 October 2012 - 06:22 AM, said:

I understand the need for an explanation. The problem is that one cannot just spew scientific mabies/jargon and call it an explanation. And that's it. In most cases it is what it apears to be unless prooven otherwise. something drawn from a materialist premise begs the question.

Ketamine? deprivation? Induced states in the laboratory?

Non of it is logical. The laboratory can make you feel wet, that dosn't mean "wet" dosnt exist. It only validates the existence of wetness because you CAN experience it. Think about it for a while...

Stop negating and beating around the bush. Provide substance instead of backtracking. You are turning out to be the skeptic in this conversation.

SINcerely,

[Rlyeh]

What is there to debunk? It's a personal experience, an anecdote.

[jake1967]

 Alienated Being, on 09 October 2012 - 11:59 PM, said:

Consciousness after death simply is not possible.

So ...you have been dead and thus you are assured that nothing is, or ever will be, beyond your understanding or comprehension of what life is ? That is simply amazing! Please tell the readers of this forum of your experience('s) with death and what we all may look forward to!

[Seeker79]

 Dying Seraph, on 10 October 2012 - 06:18 AM, said:

Present it then! Answer my question. If you have some magical proof that spiritualism finally has evidence better then scientific attempts to explain...stop sitting on it staking it up. I'm all ears. I'm sure your evidence would silence us skeptics so please by all means...

In any event the offer remains for you to prove it instead of shooting back more rhetoric. At least science has attempted to explain. Spirituality only explains the situation (ie tunnels of light etc.) it does NOT IMO anyway explain the more important WHY or HOW.


SINcerely,

You have a massive amount of assumption. 1 seem to think that 1) there is a "scientific explanation".... Actually typical of fundamentalists.

2) you assume that you You are capable of understanding. I could go into great depth about how the light is not "light". And how we all inturpret even car accidents differently and how that relates to altered states of conciousness. I could talk about myriad of other things... But what would you have me explaine. The great mystery?  How and why NDED/OOBES  are apart of human history and many many people experience  them from shamen to suburban atheist.  Would you like to go into evolutionary psychology ( a very tricky subject) but good reading. And how our capacity to experience this is do unlikely and unnecessary.

Come on really!!!  The "logical" skeptics need to read more and think for themselves more. Exactly the challenge they try to issue to the other fundamentalists. The blind leading the blind if you ask me.

[Dying Seraph]

 Seeker79, on 10 October 2012 - 06:36 AM, said:

You have a massive amount of assumption. 1 seem to think that 1) there is a "scientific explanation".... Actually typical of fundamentalists.

2) you assume that you You are capable of understanding. I could go into great depth about how the light is not "light". And how we all inturpret even car accidents differently and how that relates to altered states of conciousness. I could talk about myriad of other things... But what would you have me explaine. The great mystery?  How and why NDED/OOBES  are apart of human history and many many people experience  them from shamen to suburban atheist.  Would you like to go into evolutionary psychology ( a very tricky subject) but good reading. And how our capacity to experience this is do unlikely and unnecessary.

Come on really!!!  The "logical" skeptics need to read more and think for themselves more. Exactly the challenge they try to issue to the other fundamentalists. The blind leading the blind if you ask me.

AT least science attempts to find answers. The explanation may not be to your liking but it's an attempt better then you have done.

So you attack my mental capacity and judge me saying I won't understand what you have to say. Safe to assume you have no evidence at least as good as scientific attempts? I thought so. Yu mnay not like the scientific explanations but they are better attempts than you've explained. Since you've provided none. I asked an honest question and yet I get nothing from you. Hiding under this spiritual tent is great, except when called upon to provide a rational answer hmm? WHen you can't you need to attack others? I don't get it.

I presented BOTH SIDES!! SO wake up!! I presented the skeptic side and the spiritual side! ::facepalms:: how sad you assume you know me. I want answers. At least science attempts to explain. And at least I'm getting more from it than you. That said it's clear you have nothing to contribute other then crying foul and talking about how great spiritualism is yet provide no substance. I bid you adieu.

SINcerely,

Edited by Dying Seraph, 10 October 2012 - 06:48 AM.

[Seeker79]

 Dying Seraph, on 10 October 2012 - 06:24 AM, said:

Stop negating and beating around the bush. Provide substance instead of backtracking. You are turning out to be the skeptic in this conversation.

SINcerely,

I don't need to. You see... There is a something happening to a great many people. They say it is this  thing... Not even skeptics can deni their reports. There is no deniing it is happening. The scientist  has to come up with why it's happening within statistical significant and  logical theory. Unfortunately the materialist premis fails miserably on this subject... And the elephant in the room is that everyone knows it.

And there is tremendouse substance.... If this were a social science it would already be considered a law.

Edited by Seeker79, 10 October 2012 - 06:45 AM.